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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Should the Dragon have its own section? (Read 2427 times)
MNb
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Re: Should the Dragon have its own section?
Reply #19 - 08/15/19 at 09:59:21
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mn
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Re: Should the Dragon have its own section?
Reply #18 - 08/14/19 at 23:47:39
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Can I suggest splitting the 1 e4 e5 section into Spanish and non-Spanish, as on the forum?
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Should the Dragon have its own section?
Reply #17 - 08/14/19 at 10:05:32
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David Vigorito has written to me with his thoughts, and (amongst other things) he says:

Quote:
I did a search B60-B99 with at least one player 2500, and there were 2000 or so games (this is from mid-October 2018, by the way). About 12% (230 games) of those are B70-79. So if we added Sveshnikov and 2...e6 stuff, I imagine the real Dragon percentage of all open Sicilians is something like 3-4%! Maybe with the Accelerated that goes to 5-6%. By comparison, a full half (1000+) are B90-99!

I'm going to start a thread in the ChessPublishing section about a possible reorganisation.
  
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Jupp53
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Re: Should the Dragon have its own section?
Reply #16 - 08/12/19 at 12:14:37
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MNb wrote on 08/11/19 at 16:29:59:
Thanks for your assistance (both of you), but you can safely let me do the moderating.


There's no doubt about it!  Grin
  

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RoleyPoley
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Re: Should the Dragon have its own section?
Reply #15 - 08/11/19 at 17:19:30
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FrenchRefutes1e4 wrote on 08/08/19 at 00:08:56:
sanaz wrote on 08/06/19 at 05:53:17:
I wondered about Dragon too, as a6-d6 sicilians are played 10x more often. I think they made the sections long time ago and that they should reconsider the construction.


That said, I have heard people say that the one that runs (or maybe even owns) this site is really, really, REALLY against change. 


I've never seen anyone on this forum make that comment before.

I've also seen Tony offer to re-organise sections before (I think when there was a briefing discussion in the Nimzo thread over why the Benoni is there rather than in another section), so i know it isnt true.

The real difficulty for the site is finding a different mix that most people are happy with. Personally, i think that having Chris Ward do a section specifically on the Dragon is quite good. I appreciate others might not agree.
  

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MNb
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Re: Should the Dragon have its own section?
Reply #14 - 08/11/19 at 16:29:59
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FrenchRefutes1e4 wrote on 08/08/19 at 00:04:12:
but am I stupid enough to say that the French is more popular than the Sicilian?  Absolutely not!


Jupp53 wrote on 08/08/19 at 00:15:53:
I read someone trolling.


PatzerNoster wrote on 08/08/19 at 16:46:33:
Your statements on the Dragon just reveal you do not know a lot about it or chess in general.
Perhaps you should subscibe to the section?!  Grin


Calm down, everybody.


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Jupp53 wrote on 08/08/19 at 00:15:53:
Say which changes do you want or stop Lips Sealed ranting.
Roll Eyes



PatzerNoster wrote on 08/08/19 at 16:46:33:
Please watch your language!


Thanks for your assistance (both of you), but you can safely let me do the moderating.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Should the Dragon have its own section?
Reply #13 - 08/11/19 at 13:52:18
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Hi.

I agree it doesn't feel intensly logical to single out the Dragon and Accelerated Dragon for a separate section when other Sicilians get clumped in one. If it is popular and gets subscriptions I still suggest keeping it though.

If you are thinking about splitting the Open Sicilian section. Maybe disgruntled subcribers can be offered to switch sections? And if they feel the subscription offers less value after the split, maybe get some kind of bonus subscription for one more section.

Regards.
/ CbT
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Should the Dragon have its own section?
Reply #12 - 08/11/19 at 12:53:04
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I suppose the orignal site layout was aimed at appearing as interesting as possible to attract as many subscribers as possible. However, opening theory progresses, openings that were popular become backwaters and openings that were almost unknown in 1999 are now the height of theory.
I am happy to consider alternatives - it is possible to change the layout, of course, and it is even possible to add more sections, theoretically.
However, assuming there was a consensus on how to divide the different openings one potential problem would be how to deal with subscribers who no longer had access to the openings they subscribed to? For example, if I put the Sveshnikov in with the Dragon I will surely get complaints from all the Sveshnikov fans who subscribed to the Open Sicilians section.
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Should the Dragon have its own section?
Reply #11 - 08/11/19 at 12:24:11
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This Topic was moved here from 1. d4 d5 2. c4 [move by] GMTonyKosten.
  
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Re: Should the Dragon have its own section?
Reply #10 - 08/08/19 at 16:46:33
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FrenchRefutes1e4 wrote on 08/08/19 at 00:04:12:
This sounds like a very biased statement by a Dragon advocate.  I am a huge advocate of the French, but am I stupid enough to say that the French is more popular than the Sicilian?  Absolutely not!

With the Sicilian, the Dragon is not the most popular, and does not deserve it's own section.  Many lines are already figured out to a draw!  It's a dead opening, just like how Latin is a dead language!  Face it!  It's a draw!  At the GM Level, you've got a better chance winning with the Najdorf, French, Caro-Kann, or even 1...e5, than you do with the Dragon.


Please watch your language!
Do you need to call me stupid on account of something I never even said?


I just said that the Dragon has many supporters, even people who do not play it themselves.

Tony just confirmed me by saying that it sells well.  Cool

Of course I do not disagree that Najdorf is played way more often, a quick search in Mega 2019 revealed the following:

1.Najdorf (about 190.000)
2.Classical (more than 80.000)
3./4. Dragon/Kan (about 70.000)

And please do not forget that there is still the Accelerated Dragon included in this section, which is difficult to count because of many move orders, but 2. ... Nc6 3.d4 cd4: 4.Nd4: g6 alone has more than 50.000 games!

Withholding these points, the Dragon is a very special variation with its own flair, and that is a valid reason for it to have its own section in my view.

Your statements on the Dragon just reveal you do not know a lot about it or chess in general.
Perhaps you should subscibe to the section?!  Grin
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Should the Dragon have its own section?
Reply #9 - 08/08/19 at 15:16:28
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It looks like this thread is veering off course, I might splice the Dragon ones into the appropriate section unless anyone objects?
A very long time ago I did ask Chris to take on the Kan/Paulsen Sicilians as well ... but he refused! I agree that the way the openings are divided is not the most logical, I suppose the original owner had his reasons. Incidentally, the Dragon section actually sells quite well Smiley
The good news is that I have finally returned home (despite easyJet trying their best to maroon me elsewhere!) and hope to have almost all the outstanding updates online over the next day or two. Cheesy
  
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Re: Should the Dragon have its own section?
Reply #8 - 08/08/19 at 02:36:23
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FrenchRefutes1e4 wrote on 08/08/19 at 00:04:12:
With the Sicilian, the Dragon is not the most popular, and does not deserve it's own section.  Many lines are already figured out to a draw!  It's a dead opening, just like how Latin is a dead language!  Face it!  It's a draw!

If the Dragon is a known draw, why aren't they playing it all the time with Black in the super tournaments? Or, to turn the board around, why are some top players still playing the Open Sicilian against 2...d6?
  

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Jupp53
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Re: Should the Dragon have its own section?
Reply #7 - 08/08/19 at 00:15:53
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FrenchRefutes1e4 wrote on 08/08/19 at 00:08:56:
That said, I have heard people say that the one that runs (or maybe even owns) this site is really, really, REALLY against change.  Not sure which is in more need of change - this site, or the electoral system in the United States!


You h e a r d? P e o p l e?

I read someone trolling. Say which changes do you want or stop Lips Sealed ranting.
Roll Eyes

Btw - chess openings still are the same. Lines have changed.
« Last Edit: 08/08/19 at 06:15:53 by Jupp53 »  

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FrenchRefutes1e4
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Re: Should the Dragon have its own section?
Reply #6 - 08/08/19 at 00:08:56
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sanaz wrote on 08/06/19 at 05:53:17:
I wondered about Dragon too, as a6-d6 sicilians are played 10x more often. I think they made the sections long time ago and that they should reconsider the construction.


I can tell you that these exact same sections existed in 1999.  Not sure if the site existed before then.  All that has changed is the people that write for it, like back in the day, Neil McDonald wrote the French section, Paul Motwani wrote the double King Pawn section, etc.  I could be wrong, but I believe the Dragon, Nimzo/Benoni, and Daring Defenses are the only sections still written by the original authors.

That said, I have heard people say that the one that runs (or maybe even owns) this site is really, really, REALLY against change.  Not sure which is in more need of change - this site, or the electoral system in the United States!
  
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FrenchRefutes1e4
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Re: Should the Dragon have its own section?
Reply #5 - 08/08/19 at 00:04:12
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PatzerNoster wrote on 08/07/19 at 21:01:18:
While I agree that the Dragon section offers less value than other sections (only 6 games instead of 8-10 and to be honest there are sometimes fillers), I would definitely like to see the section continue!
The Dragon is a very special opening and there are many supporters of this line, even people who do not play it themselves.


This sounds like a very biased statement by a Dragon advocate.  I am a huge advocate of the French, but am I stupid enough to say that the French is more popular than the Sicilian?  Absolutely not!

With the Sicilian, the Dragon is not the most popular, and does not deserve it's own section.  Many lines are already figured out to a draw!  It's a dead opening, just like how Latin is a dead language!  Face it!  It's a draw!  At the GM Level, you've got a better chance winning with the Najdorf, French, Caro-Kann, or even 1...e5, than you do with the Dragon.
  
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