Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Side-Stepping Mainline Theory - Welling, Giddings (Read 5842 times)
Michael Ayton
God Member
*****
Offline


‘You’re never alone with
a doppelgänger.’

Posts: 1810
Location: durham
Joined: 04/19/03
Gender: Male
Re: Side-Stepping Mainline Theory - Welling, Giddings
Reply #28 - 09/05/19 at 21:55:59
Post Tools
Quote:
None of this discussion nor the book really moves the needle. The opening is solid and a bit grovelly ...

The book might or might not deserve criticism for omission of key lines (I can't fully judge as I haven't got it), but it seems to me it's not really attempting to move any theoretical needles in the way other recent books on the Philidor have done -- it's just not that type of book, it seems. I don't myself think of the Philidor as 'grovelly', though; the only problem I've encountered is the odd boringly drawish position.

Quote:
There almost certainly isn't going to be any swashbuckling refutation, nor any whiz-bang rehabilitation - the opening simply is what it is, and nothing's really changed. Fair assessment?

No major changes perhaps, but there have been a few new ideas and maybe it's getting harder to get a meaningful edge against it -- maybe.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RivertonKnight
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 45
Joined: 01/30/09
Re: Side-Stepping Mainline Theory - Welling, Giddings
Reply #27 - 09/05/19 at 15:45:05
Post Tools
The White pieces can prove they want to win also, considering they approached Black first  Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 554
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: Side-Stepping Mainline Theory - Welling, Giddins
Reply #26 - 09/05/19 at 13:35:05
Post Tools
Hello moderators,
Can we please fix "Giddings" to "Giddins" in the thread title? Thank you.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 554
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: Side-Stepping Mainline Theory - Welling, Giddins
Reply #25 - 09/05/19 at 13:33:57
Post Tools
Dink Heckler wrote on 09/05/19 at 09:49:23:
None of this discussion nor the book really moves the needle. The opening is solid and a bit grovelly, and if you're happy with that, you're happy with that, and if you're not, you're not. There almost certainly isn't going to be any swashbuckling refutation, nor any whiz-bang rehabilitation - the opening simply is what it is, and nothing's really changed. Fair assessment?

Yes, I suppose. I don't have the book yet, so I can't say whether it moves the needle, but based on the sample pages it doesn't seem to be the intent.


"Solid and a bit grovelly..."

I think of the Philidor as "the other French Defense". If you are going to approach the openings like this:

Quote:
For the average amateur, for whom chess is just a hobby to be fitted into a busy life of work and family, the aim should be to have an opening repertoire which involves the minimum amount of study and ongoing maintenance.
--Welling and Giddins

then your opening choice is going to have to be like that.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dink Heckler
God Member
*****
Offline


Love-Forty

Posts: 774
Joined: 02/01/07
Gender: Male
Re: Side-Stepping Mainline Theory - Welling, Giddings
Reply #24 - 09/05/19 at 09:49:23
Post Tools
None of this discussion nor the book really moves the needle. The opening is solid and a bit grovelly, and if you're happy with that, you're happy with that, and if you're not, you're not. There almost certainly isn't going to be any swashbuckling refutation, nor any whiz-bang rehabilitation - the opening simply is what it is, and nothing's really changed. Fair assessment?
  

'Am I any good at tactics?'
'Computer says No!'
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RdC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 845
Joined: 05/17/08
Re: Side-Stepping Mainline Theory - Welling, Giddings
Reply #23 - 09/04/19 at 22:13:49
Post Tools
JFugre wrote on 09/03/19 at 12:53:14:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.O-O O-O 7.h3 c6 8.a4 b6 9.Qe2 Qc7


For a 1. e4 player, this is "main line" stuff against the Philidor. You have to decide where to park the Rooks and Queen, but otherwise there's nothing particularly difficult to find to maintain at least equality or a slight edge. You are perhaps being challenged to make something happen.

Lion plans where they don't castle and instead play ideas like Nd7-f8-g6-f4, Rg8 and g7-g5-g4 can be more difficult if you don't twig what they are up to. You would think the Black King should be vulnerable in the centre, but it can be difficult to demonstrate.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Michael Ayton
God Member
*****
Offline


‘You’re never alone with
a doppelgänger.’

Posts: 1810
Location: durham
Joined: 04/19/03
Gender: Male
Re: Side-Stepping Mainline Theory - Welling, Giddings
Reply #22 - 09/04/19 at 16:30:20
Post Tools
Quote:
After 7. Re1 c6 a4 he seems to cover Rb8!?, Qc7!? and b6!. The latter gives a line that continues 9. Bg5 a6!.

Thanks for clarifying. 8 ...Qc7 and 8 ...Rb8 are older moves, I believe (the latter recommended by Andrew Martin?). I'm not too sure of their status -- maybe someone knows more?

Quote:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.O-O O-O 7.h3 c6 8.a4 a5
9.Qe2 Qe8 with idea Bd8->Bc7.

Perhaps this is an OK version of the famous 'shuffle', but 9 Re1 here, transposing to 7 Re1 c6 8 a4 a5 (the 'traditional' defence) 9 h3(!), is surely much more common than 9 Qe2. I think that Black now normally plays 9 ...Nb6 or 9 ...h6 (9 ...ed?! 10 Qd4!) and that Negi claims White advantage against both, but maybe this isn't the last word? ...

Quote:
or

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.O-O O-O 7.h3 c6 8.a4 b6 9.Qe2 Qc7

After 8 ...b6 here I believe 9 Qe2, idea Rd1, is meant to be the strongest. I guess after 9 ...Qc7 the plan is 10 Rd1 a6 -- maybe still a bit better for White but a bit messy?


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JFugre
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 57
Joined: 01/22/19
Re: Side-Stepping Mainline Theory - Welling, Giddings
Reply #21 - 09/03/19 at 14:13:55
Post Tools
JFugre wrote on 09/01/19 at 19:13:41:
I think I'm missing the Qc2+Rd1 approach in the Old Indian though.


My mistake! They give

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nf3 Nbd7 4.Nc3 e5 5.e4 Be7 6.Be2 O-O 7.O-O c6 8.Qc2 a6 9.Rd1 Qc7 10.Rb1 b5 11.b4 Bb7 and now they give 12. dxe5 though white has many good options here.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JFugre
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 57
Joined: 01/22/19
Re: Side-Stepping Mainline Theory - Welling, Giddings
Reply #20 - 09/03/19 at 12:53:14
Post Tools
I don't see any coverage of 7. h3, though it often reoccurs on move 9 in the main lines he gives. Negi seems to give 6. a4 not 7.a4 so I think the move order is just different.

After 7. Re1 c6 a4 he seems to cover Rb8!?, Qc7!? and b6!. The latter gives a line that continues 9. Bg5 a6!.

If I'm interpreting the explanation correctly, against the Negi line they would play

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.O-O O-O 7.h3 c6 8.a4 a5
9.Qe2 Qe8 with idea Bd8->Bc7.

or

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.O-O O-O 7.h3 c6 8.a4 b6 9.Qe2 Qc7


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Michael Ayton
God Member
*****
Offline


‘You’re never alone with
a doppelgänger.’

Posts: 1810
Location: durham
Joined: 04/19/03
Gender: Male
Re: Side-Stepping Mainline Theory - Welling, Giddings
Reply #19 - 09/03/19 at 10:46:29
Post Tools
Sorry, JFugre, I didn't mean to impugn your purchase -- I'm sure you'll get value from the book, especially if you find it, or parts of it, inspiring. I'm glad the 9 Bg5 line is covered -- obviously I had only the sample to go on ...

Of course, you can't blame book publishers for excluding the really critical lines from their free samples, but it's always helpful if they indicate whether the book discusses them! I stand to be corrected here, but I'd assumed that the biggest challenge to the Philidor is Negi's 7 a4 c6 8 h3. (Does the book discuss this, and if so can you tell us -- without giving too much away of course! -- a bit about the coverage?) After 7 a4 Black can try 7 ...a6, but he then has to reckon with 8 a5 whereas if White starts with 7 Re1 Black could play 7 ...a6 8 a4 b6, though my tentative understanding is that 7 ...c6 8 a4 ed is perhaps best, and OK. I'm not sure how much 'consensus' there is on all this, or whether I'm up to date with developments -- can anyone tell us more? (A ChessPub update would be great! Smiley)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JFugre
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 57
Joined: 01/22/19
Re: Side-Stepping Mainline Theory - Welling, Giddings
Reply #18 - 09/01/19 at 19:13:41
Post Tools
Michael Ayton wrote on 08/24/19 at 15:28:13:
And in the 7 Re1 (why '!' for this?) c6 8 a4 b6 line, do they cover 9 Bg5 at all?


They cover this via Nedev - Eljanov, St Vincent 2005. I think I'm missing the Qc2+Rd1 approach in the Old Indian though.

I got this book more out of curiosity and maybe to fool around a bit in blitz and I'm not familiar with either system right now, but I notice quite a bit of analysis seems to involve games of Mr. Welling, who seems to be a Dutch IM that has been playing this for many years. So I doubt it's purely recycled material.

There is quite some coverage of various move orders with the advantages and disadvantages of the options, often involving the question of the queenswap line. The authors recommend you play it. I can certainly see practical justification for this even if it's obviously not to everyone's taste.

I doubt I'll regret the 15 bucks I spent on this. It doesn't seem to deserve the reception it got so far, but as said I'm not familiar with the theory so if there's gaping holes I can't tell yet either.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JFugre
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 57
Joined: 01/22/19
Re: Side-Stepping Mainline Theory - Welling, Giddings
Reply #17 - 08/29/19 at 10:48:14
Post Tools
RdC wrote on 08/27/19 at 22:05:21:
Having to play that sort of move isn't "side-stepping theory".


To be fair, the book is called "side-stepping mainline theory". The argument being that while there might still be theory, there is a lot less to learn.

My counterpoint is usually: if I study a mainline now, and then don't care about the evolution for 10 years, what are the odds that I am on average still getting better positions that someone who learns this repertoire?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JEH
God Member
*****
Offline


"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

Posts: 1456
Location: Reading
Joined: 09/22/05
Gender: Male
Re: Side-Stepping Mainline Theory - Welling, Giddings
Reply #16 - 08/28/19 at 15:51:55
Post Tools
FizzySoda wrote on 08/24/19 at 11:51:19:
I agree with Kater. This has been done before, and what club player wants to play the queen swap line as black?!


Me  Cheesy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzSYTsDjyx0
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RivertonKnight
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 45
Joined: 01/30/09
Re: Side-Stepping Mainline Theory - Welling, Giddings
Reply #15 - 08/28/19 at 15:48:54
Post Tools
I purchased book last Thursday, hopefully be here in time to give it go, on holiday next month, hopefully a nice read!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Online


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10366
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Side-Stepping Mainline Theory - Welling, Giddings
Reply #14 - 08/28/19 at 05:39:18
Post Tools
RdC wrote on 08/27/19 at 22:05:21:
players who delight in trying to hack up exposed kings would be happy with such a position.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. Nc3 Nbd7 5. Bc4 Be7 6. dxe5 dxe5 7. Bxf7 Kxf7 8. Ng5 Kg6


Not a very good example. After 9.f4 exf4 10.Ne6 Qg8 11.Nd5 Bd6 12.Nexc7 Bxc7 13.Ne7+ Kf7 14.Nxg8 Rxg8 it's Black who'll do the hacking. Such lines are rather examples of premature attacks running out of steam.

RdC wrote on 08/27/19 at 22:05:21:
In one of the lines as Black, you have to know that .. Kg6 works.

But this point stands. I'll take another step. There are no openings you can totally play on auto-pilot, not even the Hippo or the KIA.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo