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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) State of the Kings Indian (Read 5555 times)
an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: State of the Kings Indian
Reply #19 - 10/26/20 at 07:08:50
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Seeley wrote on 10/26/20 at 02:38:44:
But that isn't what 'transpose' means.

... If you redefine words to mean whatever you'd like them to mean, by referring to the context and seeing what you think would make sense, then you're changing what was written in the first place.

I used to think there was a difference berween defining a word and redefining a word. I've gradually and reluctantly changed my mind. Winchester (2003) The Meaning of Everything was interesting, "referring to the context and seeing what you think would make sense" is exactly how dictionaries are written.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: State of the Kings Indian
Reply #18 - 10/26/20 at 06:59:17
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MNb wrote on 10/26/20 at 05:44:19:
Don't understimate transpo power. 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3 e6 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.e5 Nfd7 6.f4 is a French just fine.

Or as it was put in the Horowitz telephone book of the 1960s (as I think of it -- Chess Openings:  Theory and Practice):  "After 5. P-K5, KN-Q2 6. P-B4 P-QB4 the game has transposed remarkably into the Steinitz Variation of the French Defense."
  
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MNb
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Re: State of the Kings Indian
Reply #17 - 10/26/20 at 05:44:19
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Seeley wrote on 10/25/20 at 22:43:49:
(I can't think of a single instance where this is true, nor does it even seem plausible with a pawn already on c6).

Don't understimate transpo power. 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3 e6 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.e5 Nfd7 6.f4 is a French just fine.
(Of course this doesn't affect what you write by any means)

The best thing I can say about that site is that we can't accuse the owner of dishonesty. It's low quality is crystal clear for anyone who takes a look at it for more than a minute.
From the site:

"This is a list of all the chess openings that start with the move 1. e4."
Good to learn that 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 d3 does not belong to the Morra Gambit, while unlike the Najdorf, the Kan and the sophisticated Panteldakis Countergambit the Paulsen-Taimanov Defense (2...Nc6 and 4...e6) is not an opening worth mentioning.
  

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Bibs
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Re: State of the Kings Indian
Reply #16 - 10/26/20 at 02:40:20
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It just seems like a bad website. Fair enough if some random blog, for fun. A keen but not strong amateur has fun. Fair play, all the best.

But it seems like this is to generate money, so it is just to be critical here. And it's BAD.

We know what 'transpose' means. It mean what we all know it means, not something else. 'A transpose by any other name does not smell as sweet'.

And it is King's Indian Defence, by the way. Note that apostrophe.


  
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Seeley
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Re: State of the Kings Indian
Reply #15 - 10/26/20 at 02:38:44
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 10/26/20 at 01:13:40:
I take "transpose" to mean "can reach the same setup", in which case it's not wrong.
But that isn't what 'transpose' means.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 10/26/20 at 01:13:40:
For instance, 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.dxc5 e6 is somewhat like a French, Advance Variation. Or, 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nd7 5.Ng5 Ngf6 6.Bd3 e6 is somewhat like a French, Rubinstein Variation.
Agreed, but neither of these is a transposition. If you redefine words to mean whatever you'd like them to mean, by referring to the context and seeing what you think would make sense, then you're changing what was written in the first place.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: State of the Kings Indian
Reply #14 - 10/26/20 at 01:13:40
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Once again, it's not 100% wrong. If we take the word "transpose" for how it's most commonly used, then it's just wrong. But going by the context, I take "transpose" to mean "can reach the same setup", in which case it's not wrong. For instance, 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.dxc5 e6 is somewhat like a French, Advance Variation. Or, 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nd7 5.Ng5 Ngf6 6.Bd3 e6 is somewhat like a French, Rubinstein Variation. Of course these examples depend on black's choices. And of course "small" details can make a big difference.

Humans share something like 98% of DNA with chimpanzees, but the 2% means humans have no trouble discerning the difference, and I wouldn't doubt chimpanzees also have no trouble doing the same. The French and the Caro-Kann share a lot of chess DNA, it's okay to say so, but there are also clear differences.
  
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Seeley
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Re: State of the Kings Indian
Reply #13 - 10/25/20 at 22:43:49
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That site certainly offers some idiosyncratic insights. I was particularly intrigued by: 'Many times a Caro-Kann opening can transpose into a french defense'. (I can't think of a single instance where this is true, nor does it even seem plausible with a pawn already on c6). And 'If the Caro-Kann does not follow the main lines it usually takes on a french defense so I would recommend studying up on the french defense if you want to play the Caro-Kann.' (So why bother with the Caro-Kann at all if you're going to have to learn the French in order to play it?) I don't think I'm going to be forking out for my $7-a-month subscription to find the answer.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: State of the Kings Indian
Reply #12 - 10/25/20 at 21:46:07
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Konstriktor wrote on 10/25/20 at 20:40:28:
Although the Kings Indian Defense is a very solid opening for black it is also very passive in the early stages and if you are a very aggressive player you will not enjoy this opening. Much like any opening in chess, though, in the middle stages of this opening will allow for many opportunities for counter play."[/i]

Modern theory I guess  Shocked

It's not 100% wrong. I've always thought of the KID as two different openings. Looking at Petrosian's games and Kasparov's games reinforces this impression.

kylemeister wrote on 10/25/20 at 21:32:40:
Regarding that page at thechesswebsite.com, I'm not exactly surprised to see that several of the "Famous Games using the Kings Indian Defense" aren't actually KIDs.

Three out of six ain't bad! Oh wait...
  
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Re: State of the Kings Indian
Reply #11 - 10/25/20 at 21:32:40
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Regarding that page at thechesswebsite.com, I'm not exactly surprised to see that several of the "Famous Games using the Kings Indian Defense" aren't actually KIDs.
  
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Re: State of the Kings Indian
Reply #10 - 10/25/20 at 20:40:28
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After years of playing solidly with the NID, QID and QGD's. I am going back to the King's Indian for some adrenaline heartrate pumping boatburning action.

Turns out the current state of the KID has changed...

https://www.thechesswebsite.com/kings-indian-defense/

"The Kings Indian Defense is one of the most solid defenses in chess. Black builds an extremely strong defense around his king and then looks to counter attack depending on where white’s structure is weak.

Play normally starts in the Kings Indian Defense with the moves:

1. d4 Nf6
2. c4 g6
3. Nc3 Bg7
4. e4 d6

This defense is a hypermodern idea that allows white to control the center of the board early on while black looks to develop his minor pieces early on and move his pawns towards the center later on in the game.

Although the Kings Indian Defense is a very solid opening for black it is also very passive in the early stages and if you are a very aggressive player you will not enjoy this opening. Much like any opening in chess, though, in the middle stages of this opening will allow for many opportunities for counter play."


Modern theory I guess  Shocked
  
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Re: State of the Kings Indian
Reply #9 - 09/23/19 at 23:22:08
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Tbh, the one thing I like about the KID from both sides is that the game is never over until it is over.

I think the most troubling lines as black are fianchetto line and Samisch because they are most likely to be White wins or draws but having played both sides of nearly every KID variation over the years... I find the Makaganow to be one of the less toothless lines.
  
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Re: State of the Kings Indian
Reply #8 - 08/31/19 at 21:36:04
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I am too somehow unsure about the current status of the KID. It seems to be a one way traffic on the queen's side if white plays it correctly - with some, too less, sparkeling wins by black on the king's side interspersed.

But on the other hand Komodo in his match against Nakamura selected the KID in a three tempi down game, got a playable position and won in the end... look for game 4 in
https://www.chess.com/news/view/komodo-beats-nakamura-in-final-battle-1331

And actually there is a Fat Fritz overview concerning the KID - not too pessimistic for Black.
https://en.chessbase.com/post/fat-fritz-and-the-kid

In the end it is as ever: Black needs to meet the points exactly, while white can try this an that…
That will never change and is a severe task for black.
  

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Re: State of the Kings Indian
Reply #7 - 08/29/19 at 06:26:17
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To give an example of KID's "sink or swim" nature, I remember beating some GMs with KID big attack, yet lost to 2100 and 2200 via boa constrictor style positional squeeze due to messing up the opening. Likewise, gaining 50+ points in few months, then losing almost 100 the next year. All with KID in my repertoire. Those kind of extremes are what I notice when you only play the KID and nothing else vs. 1. d4. If you just want the KID surprise weapon though, that would help prevent running into preparation.

That might explain why so few GMs play the KID in every game. They cannot afford to lose so many points even if sometimes they might gain a lot of points in return. I think that the only ones that I remember recently were Joe Gallagher and Teimur Radjabow. Even Radjabow does not play KID every game. Nakamura certainly does not play the KID every game although he is one of the elite KID players now.
  
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Re: State of the Kings Indian
Reply #6 - 08/28/19 at 11:16:00
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Thanks for all your feedback!
TBH I couldn´t agree more with what you say. And it remembered me, why I switched to more solid defences against 1.d4:) As someone who used to study a lot of KID theory in the past, I will keep my eyes open for occasions to play it. As surprise weapon and if my opponent has a ´pet line´against it, so I can prepare something in detail.

Next season I will play a lot of games against higher rated opposition, so I might give it a shot. Funnily enough my experience in the KID contradicts the typical saying about the opening: I always had the impression, that it is risky to play it against lower rated opponents, because in those unclear positions there is always a outside chance, that the weaker player comes out on top. But against stronger opponents I was always happy with the muddy waters of the Kings Indian, because good preparation and knowledge of the structures compnsate a lot for missing skill Cheesy
  
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Re: State of the Kings Indian
Reply #5 - 08/28/19 at 00:27:53
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Short story is that from experience I feel that if you want to play KID against 2400+, you must know not only theory but have good feeling for the positions. Even so, ending up either completely lost or positionally tortured is very real and possible in every game.

You need to be resourceful and pull rabbits out of hats on a regular basis. I remember reading Smirin's KID book from Quality Chess. One thing I remember was that Black often is faced with situations where he must find good moves just to survive, and small slips can end up in positional torture. Obviously the average player is not a 2600+ GM like Smirin, so this is not easy.

The Makogonow is already a pain. The Gligoric System is also a pain, and in the Mar del Plata if you cannot mate, often your position is in deep trouble.

As if this were not enough, the Fianchetto is pure torture. I used to play Gallagher's variation with ...a6 and lunge with ...e5. Either I was dead lost or managed to overwhelm White with some attack. But the Fianchetto is not fun to play as Black. I would say at least five times more annoying than facing Makogonow.

It is no surprise that Awrukh recommends the Fianchetto for White in both 2010 and 2019 volumes of GM Repertoire. I think that Roďz has a Modern Chess databank on Fianchetto KID for White coming out soon. So no doubt more White players will decide to play the Fianchetto against KID.

Overall, playing KID you experience high highs (brilliant attacking wins) and low lows (horrific positional torture). And especially hard to play this at 2400+ opposition on a regular basis, compared to easier to grasp openings like Slaw, QGD, QGA or even Grünfeld. In other words, like playing for big money at blackjack. But if you like that lifestyle, KID would be good for you.
« Last Edit: 09/24/19 at 03:25:02 by Bibs »  
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Re: State of the Kings Indian
Reply #4 - 08/27/19 at 23:26:48
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Just an observation about the 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. h3 O-O 6. Be3 Nbd7 7. Nf3 a6 8. Be2 c5 9. O-O cd 10. Nxd4 Re8 of Ondersteijn-Markus (given by halbstark):  one of the ways that could be reached is via the Classical with 6...c5 7. 0-0 Re8 (called "a weird move" in the April KID update, and advocated on a ChessBase DVD from three years ago, Königsindische Verteidigung - Ein modernes Repertoire), as happened e.g. in ...Olafsson-Andersson 1977.
  
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Re: State of the Kings Indian
Reply #3 - 08/27/19 at 22:44:54
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I used to play the KID. My recollection is that some part of my repertoire was refuted every month. I would search theory, published games and, if need be, use my own noggin. I would eventually find a fix.

Bent Larsen made a comment that he liked to play the KID against the Russians because he thought it might be unsound! I interpreted that as meaning that the KID gave him a back-against-the-wall mentality that he used to play his best chess - and it often worked.

Now that I'm retired, I'm thinking of going back to the KID myself. I see nothing has changed. It's as unsound (and viable?) as ever.

I'm afraid your analysis did not display or download for me. But I can attest that the Magokanov is a challenge. IM David Vigorito, Chess Publishing, has covered the line several times. In June 2019 he provided two games. Modern-Chess.com has two recent books devoted to it, from the white perspective. GM Bologan covers it some in his recent book on the KID.

I'm beginning to look at these lines with Stockfish 10. It seems to me that black hangs in there, though sometimes the analysis is long. SF10 seems to have something referred to as "analysis contempt," I kid you not. In very complex positions it gives different evaluations depending on whether or it is white or black to move. But around 10 moves in, it settles down to a more stable evaluation.

It often pays to look at a position with your own eyes. For example if you have a simplified position with equal material and generally equally placed pieces and pawns, SF10 may give white an advantage because he has a bishop vs a knight or has two connected pawns on one side vs two isolated pawns. Sure white is "better," but perhaps it's not likely to mean anything.

The fiancheto line has always been a headache. I think ...c6 ...d5 is perfectly viable and not nearly so boring as people may think. I'd rather find chances there, than in the Petroff. This line could be the complete answer IMO. The biggest problem is style. King's Indian players do not want to play a Gruenfeld/Slav. Nor do Gruenfeld players. Nor do Slav players. So, like Rodney Dangerfield, It don't get no respect.

Early ...c5 lines have lots of potential to get out of theory - or at least your opponents theory. ...d6, ...c6, ...Bf5 has some appeal to this KI player.

Also the Mar Del Plata is as challenging as ever. Nor should one ignore the Saemish or Averbach. The Petrosian line may transpose to the Magakonov.

The KID is not easy, but if you're not losing, you're probably winning!
  
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Re: State of the Kings Indian
Reply #2 - 08/27/19 at 22:01:10
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To be honest most of the times I come up with my opening lines by looking at the Livebook and -database of Chessbase. I simply saw some recent games played by some strong GMs. A really interesting game was the following one played by Adhiban.
Adhiban played c6 after Na6, but both moves can transpose to each other



I haven´t analyzed these lines really deeply. (8.Rc1 seems to avoid this nice 8...Nh5-ideas for some concrete reasons and might be worth a try.) But at least I couldn´t find a clesr refutation.

The c6-move order gives some independant possibilities, if White goes for example for 7.Bg5. Then black has an immediate d6-d5 like in the following game.


The move 6...a6 is combined with the idea of playing Nbd7 and c5. If White does for d4-d5, then you go benkostyle with b5. If White leaves his pawn on d4, then you take and play some hedgehog position with a bishop on g7. The normal setup is b6, Bb7, e6, Re8 and hopefully a well timed d6-d5 break. I am not sure about the objective evaluation of this line, but black is hoping, that the move h3 does more harm than good to the white position. At least it seems like playable idea.

  
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Re: State of the Kings Indian
Reply #1 - 08/27/19 at 20:36:25
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halbstark wrote on 08/27/19 at 16:47:34:
Black seems to have other nice options against the Makaganow like 6...a6 or 6...c6, which seem to be more or less fine for black.


Do you have any references for that?
I am a regular King's Indian player and I hear about these moves for the first time.
  
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State of the Kings Indian
08/27/19 at 16:47:34
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Hi guys,

a few years back I was a big KID addict. When Naka, Ding, Grischuk and other played it regulary, I played it in every black game against 1.d4.

Then all the elite players stopped playing it and so did I. My main reason was that everyone started playing the Makaganow with h3 and at some point I was getting really tired of these positions. Especially because the h3-trend was new and the white players, who chose this line, were really well prepared in general and at some point I considered the main line against it more or less refuted

Black has different moves here 10...Nf6 or 10...Nf4, but with engine assistance there does always seem to be a white advantage.

But now a few years later I would like to pick up the KID once again. Black seems to have other nice options against the Makaganow like 6...a6 or 6...c6, which seem to be more or less fine for black.
So what do you guys think are the critical lines these days against the KID? And do you think it is just fashion, that you don´t see it played in high level chess? Or has it something to do with the objective evaluation in the critical lines?
  
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