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Normal Topic 6.g3 - How serious, & which Black reply? (Read 330 times)
Pawnpusher
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Re: 6.g3 - How serious, & which Black reply?
Reply #7 - yesterday at 11:20:38
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Yes using the Nibbler gui with Lco is a great tool for looking at all possible idea.
  
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Re: 6.g3 - How serious, & which Black reply?
Reply #6 - 09/13/19 at 14:23:50
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Very off topic then Smiley A '5 minute' LC0 perspective on my half decent (not massive) desktop. LC0 is, I think, good for that sort of meta questions as its very strong and utterly free of inbuilt human bias.

Vs the Classical it's roughly Bg5 58%, f3 and Bc4 at 57%, Bb5, h3, a3, Be3, g3, Nb3 and Qd3 at 55%,  Be3/a4/Nxc6/Nf3 at 53.5% and f4/h4 at ~51% etc.

The Nardojf is really quite amusing. Be3, Bd3, f3, Bg5, h3, Be2, f4, Nb3, a4, g3, Bc4, Rg1, Qf3 and Nf3 *all* more or less round to 55% expected score to white. Qd3/h4/a3/Qe2 do 53%
(There are a few ideas behind 6 h4, honest.).

I think it puts into perspective how overly narrow we sometimes get/have got.
  
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Re: 6.g3 - How serious, & which Black reply?
Reply #5 - 09/13/19 at 09:57:22
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Jack Hughes wrote on 09/11/19 at 20:13:34:
As black I would recommend 6... g6 7. Bg2 Nxd4 8. Qxd4 Bg7 9. e5 Ng4 10. f4 Nh6, when I'm really unable to find anything tempting for white. After 11. 0-0 0-0 the e5-pawn is going to drop for insufficient compensation, while the more ambitious 11. Bd2 gives black a pleasant choice between the relatively safe 11... Nf5 12. Qe2 0-0 and initiating complications with 11... 0-0 12. 0-0 Bg4 13. Rde1 Be6. In either case white doesn't seem to be even pressing for an objective advantage.

9. ..Ng4 is a good point, kinda forgot that's an option.

Still seems like a decent try to me, however:
- Presuming you mean 11.Bd2 Nf5 12.Qe4 0-0 (Qe2 not a legal move), the least I found was 13.0-0-0 dxe5 14.fxe5 Qa5 15.Qd5 Qxd5 16.Nxd5 Bxe5 17.Bb4 Kg7 18.Nxe7 Nxe7 19.Bxe7 Re8 and ok it's gonna be a draw, but there was no risk whatsoever, and Black had to solve some questions (eg 17...Kg7 isn't exactly the most natural move in the world to me, and more natural tries like 17...Re8 or 17...Bd6 leave Black in very unpleasant waters);
- While the complications after eg 11.Bd2 0-0 12.0-0-0 Bg4 13.Rde1 Be6 14.Bxb7 Rb8 15.Bd5 dxe5 16.fxe5 Nf5 17.Qd3 always seem to end in some sort of "I have an extra pawn, go prove something, I'm not seeing it" type positions.

IF that doesn't hold up to closer scrutiny, there's also always decent other choices for White on the path, like 6...g6 7.Nde2 and just going into the standard type positions, or  6...g6 7.Bg2 Nxd4 8.Qxd4 Bg7 9.0-0 0-0 10.a4 / similar, which get some kind of engine approval and are backed up database scores.

Quote:
In terms of a non-Rauzer weapon against the Classical I'm quite fond of 6. f3. In particular the mainline 6... e5 7. Nb3 Be7  8. Be3 0-0 9. Qd2 a5 10. Bb5 Na7 11. Bxa7!?, as played by Leela against Chess22k in TCEC Season 13, seems very interesting. Have you looked into this? What are your thoughts?

I loosely looked at this, as it's recommended in Shaw's Sicilian Mainlines, and I'm sorta/sometimes playing 6.f3 against the Najdorf as well (haven't actually faced the Najdorf in what feels like forever, there's been a few Dragons and a lot of 2. ..Nc6 recently), but I think back when I had a glance at it, there was still this "Bg5 is the only serious move" stuff spooking around in my mind, so I was too lazy to take it seriously.
It certainly is on some sort of "list" of things to look at, if I end up unhappy with the g3 line..
.. or perhaps I 'have to' look at f3 in any case, as Black can always sorta transpose into it, if he goes Nc6 somewhere in the Najdorf?
I always get lost in whether these lines are just the same position, or suddenly dead lost for Black, cause the extra tempo spent on ..a6 was necessary elsewhere  Lips Sealed

Remains the question: Why is this "Rauzer is the only serious try" something that gets repeated so often? Simply because it "promises" an advantage, while every other move is only "an attempt" at one (while eg vs the Najdorf, nothing promises one)?

Ie, is 6.f3/similar against the Classical *less* promising than against the Najdorf, or are they "the same", and there's just an even better option against the Classical (Bg5), while nothing as strong exists vs the Najdorf?

MNb wrote on 09/12/19 at 05:58:16:
@JackH: It's rather 6...e5 7.Nb3 Be7 8.Be3 Be6 (iso O-O) 9.Qd2 d5 or 9.Nd5 Bxd5 10.exd5 Nb4 that puts me off.

Shaw quotes this game http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1522621 amongst others, and doesn't seem too miffed about the whole variation.
Haven't done any analysis myself, so I'm not sure if he is omitting something, but it doesn't "feel" very problematic to me either..

Jack Hughes wrote on 09/12/19 at 10:47:19:
At any rate, we're getting off topic here (unless IsaVulpes wants to rename the thread 'Alternatives to the Rauzer' or something), and I don't my second of three thread contributions to be another derail, so perhaps we could continue this discussion in a new one.

Hah, it's no problem. I am happy with all discussion, good to see this forum pumping again in some fashion  Wink I guess this renaming is actually not too off, as it was one of the core questions I had upon thread inception anyway..
E: Okay, I can't rename it - either because people have posted here, or because it's too old, but that option simply doesn't exist anymore.
Feel free to open a new thread on discussing 6.f3 if you like, but I also don't mind if you keep that talk here.
  
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Re: 6.g3 - How serious, & which Black reply?
Reply #4 - 09/12/19 at 10:47:19
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MNb wrote on 09/12/19 at 05:58:16:
@JackH: It's rather 6...e5 7.Nb3 Be7 8.Be3 Be6 (iso O-O) 9.Qd2 d5 or 9.Nd5 Bxd5 10.exd5 Nb4 that puts me off.

Taking a quick look at the database 9. Qe2 looks promising, with the point that 9... d5 with now run into trouble on the d-file after 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. 0-0-0. Instead black should play 9... 0-0, when white plays in typical English Attack style with moves like h4, g4, h5, Kb1, Nd5 etc. on the cards, with the additional possible idea of Qb5 to slow up black's queenside counterplay. I haven't done any proper engine analysis here, but a cursory click through the games played on ICCF in this line seem to suggest that white remains flexible between slowly building up on the kingside and entering into a maneuvering battle in the centre and queenside based upon the weak d5-square, while black's active prospects are a bit more vague and dependent on white's response.
At any rate, we're getting off topic here (unless IsaVulpes wants to rename the thread 'Alternatives to the Rauzer' or something), and I don't my second of three thread contributions to be another derail, so perhaps we could continue this discussion in a new one.
  
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Re: 6.g3 - How serious, & which Black reply?
Reply #3 - 09/12/19 at 05:58:16
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@JackH: It's rather 6...e5 7.Nb3 Be7 8.Be3 Be6 (iso O-O) 9.Qd2 d5 or 9.Nd5 Bxd5 10.exd5 Nb4 that puts me off.
  

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Re: 6.g3 - How serious, & which Black reply?
Reply #2 - 09/11/19 at 20:13:34
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Thanks for sharing this IsaVulpes. It's very interesting food for thought, and that MVL-Giri game is a treat. As black I would recommend 6... g6 7. Bg2 Nxd4 8. Qxd4 Bg7 9. e5 Ng4 10. f4 Nh6, when I'm really unable to find anything tempting for white. After 11. 0-0 0-0 the e5-pawn is going to drop for insufficient compensation, while the more ambitious 11. Bd2 gives black a pleasant choice between the relatively safe 11... Nf5 12. Qe2 0-0 and initiating complications with 11... 0-0 12. 0-0 Bg4 13. Rde1 Be6. In either case white doesn't seem to be even pressing for an objective advantage.
In terms of a non-Rauzer weapon against the Classical I'm quite fond of 6. f3. In particular the mainline 6... e5 7. Nb3 Be7  8. Be3 0-0 9. Qd2 a5 10. Bb5 Na7 11. Bxa7!?, as played by Leela against Chess22k in TCEC Season 13, seems very interesting. Have you looked into this? What are your thoughts?
  
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Re: 6.g3 - How serious, & which Black reply?
Reply #1 - 09/11/19 at 07:36:38
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IsaVulpes wrote on 09/11/19 at 04:49:39:
Hi,

6.g3 e6 looked the most logical to me, just going into a standard Scheveningen while having avoided the Keres, but as with the Classical I have no real idea about how good that is for either player


You could also look at 6. g3 against the Najdorf. In the Scheveningen, play builds slowly as Black sets up a Hedgehog formation and White prepares either to assault it or maintain pressure. There's an idea in main lines where White will play Bf1-e2-f3-g2, so playing directly Bf1-g2 looks a tempo gain. Without the threat of g2-g4-g5, Black can organise .. Qc7 .. b6 and .. Bb7 gaining time on the idea of the 1980s KvK matches of Bc8-d7-c8-b7.

In fact the attempts by both Karpov and Anand against Kasparov's Scheveningen are worth study as well as more recent attempts to improve on their play. 
  
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6.g3 - How serious, & which Black reply?
09/11/19 at 04:49:39
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Hi,

Following this game http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1967987 , I've gotten pretty interested in 6.g3 (from the White side), as I meet the Classical far too rarely to deal with learning the Rauzer, and I never really managed to warm up to playing the 6.Bc4 lines given in Modernized either.

The gambit is -as far I can tell- very legit, I've analyzed it a bit, and White always seemed to get a nagging edge at minimum - in the quoted game, MVL just played the most natural moves in the world and won effortlessly, with it being very unclear where Black should even improve.

However, Black is obviously not forced to play 6..Nxd4 7..g6; the Database spits out 6. ..g6/..Bg4/..e6/..e5 as more common, plus 6. ..Bd7/..Qb6 as additional options, and while smth like 6. ..Nxd4 7.Qxd4 e6 hasn't been played yet, it doesn't look illegal either.

Are there any other interesting lines to be aware of for White, if Black plays something that isn't ..Nxd4? I found eg this:
6.g3 g6 7.Bg2 Nxd4 8.Qxd4 Bg7 9.e5!?, in similar style to the MVL-Caru game
Play could continue
9. ..Nd7 10.Qa4, and now if
- 10..Bxe5 Bh6, with the Black King kinda stuck
- 10..dxe5 Be3 0-0 0-0-0, and Black looks terrible to me
- 10..0-0 11.exd6, when it gets a bit messy, but looks quite interesting.

6.g3 e6 looked the most logical to me, just going into a standard Scheveningen while having avoided the Keres, but as with the Classical I have no real idea about how good that is for either player;
Database spits out 7.Bg2 Bd7 8.Ndb5!? to be a tremendous weapon, but I don't really get what's going on there.. I'm also not sure how happy Black would be practically, with playing some Scheveningen instead of "their" opening.

After 6.g3 e5, I presume the simplest is to go Nde2 and play it in 6.h3 Najdorf style, just following up with h3-g4-Ng3-etc, when either the Black Knight on c6 would much rather be on d7, or Black never gets to do the standard ..h5 reply, which makes his position rather unpleasant to play.

6.g3 Bg4 is actually the second most common database choice, but I don't understand it at all. After 7.f3 Bd7, I'll go Be3+Qd2+0-0-0 & g4, landing in a standard English Attack (I didn't lose a tempo on g3-g4, as Black also played Bg4-Bd7), where Black not only missed out on all his active tries (such as a preemptive ..h5), but also went for an early ..Bd7, which is rarely any useful.

So my set of questions here would be
- How critical in general is 6.g3 judged to be? My vague recollection has always been "nothing but the Rauzer is serious against the Classical", but all of this looks decently promising for White to me, so am I missing some important line, or grossly misevaluating something?
- What's the generally preferred / most common approach for Black? Transposing into a Scheveningen with ..e6? Doing some Najdorf style ..e5? Direct ..g6? Would you consider playing 6. ..Nxd4 - or at least, would you have considered it, prior to seeing this MVL game (ie how likely would I be to actually get this fancy ..gambit?.. on the board)?
- Or does someone actually have some sort of 'refutation' for the MVL line, and it's not a serious try but just some one-off Rapid variation after all? I didn't find anything, but I'm not the greatest at doing so either.

Thanks!  Smiley
  
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