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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) "Almost definitive refutation" of the Qd8 Scandi (Read 1732 times)
Monocle
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Re: "Almost definitive refutation" of the Qd8 Scandi
Reply #11 - 09/19/19 at 22:25:58
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IsaVulpes wrote on 09/18/19 at 07:06:24:
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6

Now what do you play?


3.Bb5+
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: "Almost definitive refutation" of the Qd8 Scandi
Reply #10 - 09/18/19 at 13:18:06
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IM_Serious wrote on 09/11/19 at 22:38:12:
There's just one little problem though.
Can you spot it?


None of these lines look like a real 'refutation' as such, apart from the first, and certainly the 2nd line looks perfectly playable for Black.
  
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Re: "Almost definitive refutation" of the Qd8 Scandi
Reply #9 - 09/18/19 at 09:04:09
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IsaVulpes wrote on 09/18/19 at 07:06:24:
3.c4 and both ..e6 and ..c6 are pretty respectable


If White doesn't take the pawn, play can transpose to either the Panov variation in the Caro, or the Exchange French with c4 depending on whether .. c6 or .. e6 had been played.

If White likes taking pawns and defusing compensation, the Icelandic 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. c4 e6 4. dxe6 Bxe6 is also possible
  
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tipau
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Re: "Almost definitive refutation" of the Qd8 Scandi
Reply #8 - 09/18/19 at 08:51:18
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IsaVulpes wrote on 09/18/19 at 07:06:24:
3.d4 Qxd5 and play will quickly transpose to one of the standard lines


I'm not sure that's right. Here White has the chance to play 4.c4 with a nice position. After 2...Qxd5 he can't do this as 3.d4 is met by either 3...Nc6 or 3...e5 (not 3...Nf6)
  

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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: "Almost definitive refutation" of the Qd8 Scandi
Reply #7 - 09/18/19 at 07:58:33
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Hi.

Being a 3.Nf3 player I can say that
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.Nf3
Avoids the (afaik) equalising 2...Qxd5 3.Nf3 Bg4. If black is forced into slower setups than this, in my experience white has good chances for advantage.

Have a nice day.
/ CbT
  
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IsaVulpes
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Re: "Almost definitive refutation" of the Qd8 Scandi
Reply #6 - 09/18/19 at 07:06:24
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I found all of these delay-or-refuse-to-play-d4-entirely variations to run into a simple problem:

1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6

Now what do you play?

3.d4 Qxd5 and play will quickly transpose to one of the standard lines
3.Nc3 Nxd5 isn't really anything
3.c4 and both ..e6 and ..c6 are pretty respectable
3.Nf3 .. might actually be something? Not sure if one can get away with that. It's certainly not something I've ever seen..

IM_Serious wrote on 09/18/19 at 04:24:38:
tipau wrote on 09/12/19 at 10:22:05:
Maybe 5...a6 6.Ne5 e6 7.d4 Nbd7, which is recommended by IM John Bartholomew

I agree, as after 7...b5 White has the intermezzo 8.Qf3!

This confuses me a great deal, as you gave a different line (which the engine also likes better) in the OP..

"1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qd8 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.Nf3 a6!? 6.Ne5 e6 7.d4 b5 8.Be2 [..]"
  
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kylemeister
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Re: "Almost definitive refutation" of the Qd8 Scandi
Reply #5 - 09/18/19 at 07:00:01
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Taking time to use a secondary central pawn (in the terminology of the late E. Mednis) to fight for a seemingly important central square -- can such an old-fashioned approach be satisfactory?!
  
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Re: "Almost definitive refutation" of the Qd8 Scandi
Reply #4 - 09/18/19 at 04:24:38
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tipau wrote on 09/12/19 at 10:22:05:
Maybe 5...a6 6.Ne5 e6 7.d4 Nbd7, which is recommended by IM John Bartholomew


I agree, as after 7...b5 White has the intermezzo 8.Qf3!

However, I think the overriding problem with the "almost definitive refutation" is the move order.

1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qd8 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.Nf3 etc.

White is being clever to delay d4, so Black should play 4...c5! Nf3 5.Nc6

  
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tipau
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Re: "Almost definitive refutation" of the Qd8 Scandi
Reply #3 - 09/12/19 at 10:22:05
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Maybe 5...a6 6.Ne5 e6 7.d4 Nbd7, which is recommended by IM John Bartholomew
  

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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: "Almost definitive refutation" of the Qd8 Scandi
Reply #2 - 09/12/19 at 05:05:20
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Hi.

IM_Serious wrote on 09/11/19 at 22:38:12:
There's just one little problem though.

Can you spot it?

Any clues? Grin

Is it something you can see just from looking at your post? Do you actually need to know something about the Scandinavian to find it?

Happy hunting all.
  
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Re: "Almost definitive refutation" of the Qd8 Scandi
Reply #1 - 09/12/19 at 00:23:10
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Has all of this been double-checked with Leela, Stockfish and other engines ¿

In the last line, what happens on 9. h4 Ab4 instead of Cbd7 ¿ I have no board in front of me, so trying to visualise this...
  
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"Almost definitive refutation" of the Qd8 Scandi
09/11/19 at 22:38:12
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In Peon de Rey 141, de la Villa has published almost an almost definitive refutation of the ...Qd8 Scandinavian. ("refutación definitiva...o casi")

Here are some interesting sample lines:

1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qd8 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.Nf3 Bg4? 6.Ne5! Be6 7.Bxe6 fxe6 8.O-O g6 9.Qf3 c6 10.Qh3 Qd6 11.Nxg6

1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qd8 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.Nf3 a6!? 6.Ne5 e6 7.d4 b5 8.Be2 Bb7 9.Bf3 Qc8 10.O-O Nbd7 11.Bg5 Bd6 12.Nxd7 Nxd7 13.Ne4 O-O 14.Rc1

1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qd8 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c6 6.Ne5!? e6 7.d4 Nbd7 8.O-O! Be7 9.Re1 O-O 10.Bg5 Nb6 11.Bd3 Nbd5 12.Qf3

1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qd8 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.Nf3 e6 6.d4 Be7 7.O-O O-O 8.Qe2 Nbd7 9.Re1 Nb6 10.Bd3! c5 11.dxc5 Nbd7 12.Ne4 Nxc5 13.Nxc5 Bxc5 14.Bg5 Be7 15.Rad1 Qc7 16.Ne5 Nd5 17.Bxe7 Qxe7 18.Be4 Nf6 19.Bf3

1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qd8 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.Nf3 Bf5 6.Ne5! e6 7.Qf3 Qc8! 8.g4 Bg6 9.h4! Nbd7 10.Nxd7 Nxd7 11.Qe2 h5 12.Bxe6! Be7! 13.Nd5 Qd8! 14.Nf4 Nf8 15.Bb3 hxg4 16.Qxg4 Rxh4 17.Rxh4 Bxh4 18.d4 Qf6 19.Qe2+ Qe7 20.Be3 O-O-O 21.Nxg6 Nxg6 22.O-O-O

There's just one little problem though.

Can you spot it?
  
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