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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Is this a real trick? (Read 5948 times)
Dink Heckler
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Re: Is this a real trick?
Reply #16 - 09/24/19 at 09:37:06
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I've seen an adult IM try to pull this trick against a lower rated opponent. Don't assume it's only snotty kids - let's be careful out there.
  

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Re: Is this a real trick?
Reply #15 - 09/24/19 at 03:29:54
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Karpov and Timman played official matches without an arbiter.
  

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Re: Is this a real trick?
Reply #14 - 09/24/19 at 01:26:37
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ReneDescartes wrote on 09/23/19 at 23:31:16:
Rubinstein and Spassky come to mind.

Puts me in mind of Kavalek writing about Spassky overstepping against Panno in an even position at the 1976 Manila Interzonal:  Boris was still the great gentleman we used to know. Polugaevsky tried to convince him that his flag had fallen prematurely, that there was still some time left on his clock. Boris was firm: "I do not intend to make any complaints. I have lost the game."
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: Is this a real trick?
Reply #13 - 09/23/19 at 23:31:16
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Conversely, who were said to be some of the greatest gentlemen at the board? Rubinstein and Spassky come to mind. Richard Rapport recently offered Aronian a draw in blitz in St. Louis from a position with play but no great advantage, but a huge lead in time (Aronian was virtually on the two-second increment).
« Last Edit: 09/24/19 at 02:25:15 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: Is this a real trick?
Reply #12 - 09/22/19 at 21:01:44
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Wow. OK thanks for all the replies. I guess I must have been very lucky to not come across this before.
  
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Re: Is this a real trick?
Reply #11 - 09/22/19 at 19:51:09
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Yes, it's happened to me before a few times over the years, all but one time with kids.  I learned to ask my opponent, when he extended his hand without saying anything, "Are you resigning?" 

Often kids will extend their hand and say "Good game" quickly, but without tipping over their king.  I wouldn't touch anyone's hand without verbal clarification first.  It can seem like the natural and polite thing to do to take their hand when offered, and in a completely losing position you'd think that they are resigning, but I've learned that there are plenty of people out there that will try this trick on you. 

Also as others have said, make them sign your scoresheet whenever possible.

  
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Re: Is this a real trick?
Reply #10 - 09/22/19 at 19:17:01
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trw wrote on 09/22/19 at 16:49:37:
2. It sounds like the arbiter did the right thing. I am a FIDE FA and a much higher ranked USCF td. I would have looked at the two score sheets to see if there a signature agreeing to the result, what was time and the position. Then I would have proceeded the same. I would have tried to replicate the exact time rather than just declare blitz. I would only make it a blitz game if the time was unrecorded by both players.

It was a rapid game and no one was notating the game. In fact, even the reconstruction was approximate. But at least we both agreed I had one more pawn.

I remembered having 3 more minutes, my opponent said he had had at least 4 more but wasn't sure. The arbiter just said look, 5 minutes is enough either way.
  
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Re: Is this a real trick?
Reply #9 - 09/22/19 at 19:14:28
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 09/22/19 at 14:45:07:
This is not a new thing. I already posted in another thread about various ways to cheat, detailed in an article by arbiter George Harris in Chess Horizons in the 1970s. Fake resignation, fake draw offer, recording the wrong result were all in the list. Harris's advice was like the referee's instructions to the boxers: "Protect yourself at all times."

gwnn wrote on 09/22/19 at 07:34:43:
Well the kid did claim that he said "draw?" but neither I nor the witnesses (the table next to us) heard anything.

If you didn't hear him say "draw?" then did you hear him say "I resign"? Infrequently I get offered a silent handshake, invariably I make sure to ask "Are you resigning?", loudly enough for the neighbors hear that. Another good practice is to circle the correct result on the scoresheet and offer it for your opponent to sign. You see this all the time in the top section. Make it a ritual, it costs nothing. Finally, ALWAYS report the result on the pairings sheet yourself. In the top section I can't recall the last time that my opponent and I did not record the result together. I do it because I read that article ... my opponents do it because I look like a cheater? If every would-be cheater knew that every opponent were going to the pairings sheet every time, they would reconsider their options.


For what it's worth, I have pretty much never* heard my opponent say "I resign" when they resigned, and I always heard them say "I offer a draw" or "draw?" with a questioning look. This is literally the first time this has happened to me in 20 years of tournament practice. I'm just trying to get to grips with the idea that people would do this, or do this on purpose.

Then again, in a classical game, it wouldn't really matter as we'd need to sign the score sheet etc. And in blitz/rapid, draw offers are less common.

*- sometimes they do say stuff like "well done" or sometimes they tip the king.
  
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Re: Is this a real trick?
Reply #8 - 09/22/19 at 18:53:25
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I've had kids ask me, when they beat me and I extended my hand, "do you resign"? It was a little surprising, but I realized they must have been deceived before by some little knave.

It's a pretty disgusting trick. They say, though, that Reshevsky used to ask "do you want a draw?" and upon acceptance say that he wasn't offering one, just gathering information. That's almost as bad. No wonder Fischer hated him from early on.
  
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Re: Is this a real trick?
Reply #7 - 09/22/19 at 17:13:32
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Hi.

gwnn wrote on 09/22/19 at 06:56:17:
I guess the best is to ask what it means whenever someone reaches their hand like this to me. But isn't that patronising/rubbing it in? I know Anish Giri said he asked Sam Shankland what he had meant when he resigned in a drawn position. So I guess it's OK to do at 1700 level as well.

Of course it's ok. It's pretty much more than ok in a position where you are visibly better.

gwnn wrote on 09/22/19 at 06:56:17:
What is an arbiter supposed to do in these cases? At the time, I was annoyed that I had to play it out, but I now think it was a fair solution.

This would often depend on circumstances so first step is always to try and find these out.

As a general approach (for anyone older than 10) definitely forfeit the guy reaching out his hand. It is up to that player to make clear what he means when he contacts the opponent like this. By not doing so these kinds of situations occur to the detriment of chess and everyone involved. Also make sure he/she understands that future draw offers in the tournament are to be crystal clear.

If you think the draw offer was correct and the opponent changed his mind afterwards you can let the drawn result stand but this is a trickier situation.   

gwnn wrote on 09/22/19 at 06:56:17:
Since this caused a bit of a commotion, several people talked to me later. They were all friendly, but they told me that kids do this "trick" all the time. The trick being not that they offer draws in bad positions hoping I accept, but that they offer draws ambiguously and hope I shake hands. I honestly still can't believe it, despite hearing it from 3 different people. Now that I think of it, the fact that he ran to the arbiter (I was walking towards him myself but he overtook me) was suspicious. Is this really a thing???

Yes. It happens. Kids and teenagers overwhelmingly.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Is this a real trick?
Reply #6 - 09/22/19 at 16:49:37
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gwnn wrote on 09/22/19 at 06:56:17:
But I have three questions:
  1. I guess the best is to ask what it means whenever someone reaches their hand like this to me. But isn't that patronising/rubbing it in? I know Anish Giri said he asked Sam Shankland what he had meant when he resigned in a drawn position. So I guess it's OK to do at 1700 level as well.
  2. What is an arbiter supposed to do in these cases? At the time, I was annoyed that I had to play it out, but I now think it was a fair solution.
  3. Since this caused a bit of a commotion, several people talked to me later. They were all friendly, but they told me that kids do this "trick" all the time. The trick being not that they offer draws in bad positions hoping I accept, but that they offer draws ambiguously and hope I shake hands. I honestly still can't believe it, despite hearing it from 3 different people. Now that I think of it, the fact that he ran to the arbiter (I was walking towards him myself but he overtook me) was suspicious. Is this really a thing???


1. I ALWAYS confirm my opponent is resigning unless they say "I resign" or "tip their King." I also make them sign a scoresheet with the result so they can't contest it later. Personally, when I resign, I like to tip the King with one hand and offer the other as a draw simultaneously so there is no ambiguity. In Giri's case, he noted the only way for him to win was for Shankland to resign.

2. It sounds like the arbiter did the right thing. I am a FIDE FA and a much higher ranked USCF td. I would have looked at the two score sheets to see if there a signature agreeing to the result, what was time and the position. Then I would have proceeded the same. I would have tried to replicate the exact time rather than just declare blitz. I would only make it a blitz game if the time was unrecorded by both players.

3. Yes, kids do this trick all the time intentionally and dishonestly. As an arbiter, I see it almost once per tournament (except on the rare cases where it is an all adult tournament or round robin).


an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 09/22/19 at 15:22:42:
nocteus wrote on 09/22/19 at 11:38:30:
I've already seen this trick in tournaments. If my opponent offers a handshake, I wait for him to stop the clock first before shaking it.

I don't have the latest rulebook, but as far as I know stopping the clocks does not mean resignation. It's a convention in OTB blitz, but has no standing in rated play.


Correct.
  
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Re: Is this a real trick?
Reply #5 - 09/22/19 at 15:22:42
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nocteus wrote on 09/22/19 at 11:38:30:
I've already seen this trick in tournaments. If my opponent offers a handshake, I wait for him to stop the clock first before shaking it.

I don't have the latest rulebook, but as far as I know stopping the clocks does not mean resignation. It's a convention in OTB blitz, but has no standing in rated play.
  
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Re: Is this a real trick?
Reply #4 - 09/22/19 at 14:45:07
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This is not a new thing. I already posted in another thread about various ways to cheat, detailed in an article by arbiter George Harris in Chess Horizons in the 1970s. Fake resignation, fake draw offer, recording the wrong result were all in the list. Harris's advice was like the referee's instructions to the boxers: "Protect yourself at all times."

gwnn wrote on 09/22/19 at 07:34:43:
Well the kid did claim that he said "draw?" but neither I nor the witnesses (the table next to us) heard anything.

If you didn't hear him say "draw?" then did you hear him say "I resign"? Infrequently I get offered a silent handshake, invariably I make sure to ask "Are you resigning?", loudly enough for the neighbors hear that. Another good practice is to circle the correct result on the scoresheet and offer it for your opponent to sign. You see this all the time in the top section. Make it a ritual, it costs nothing. Finally, ALWAYS report the result on the pairings sheet yourself. In the top section I can't recall the last time that my opponent and I did not record the result together. I do it because I read that article ... my opponents do it because I look like a cheater? If every would-be cheater knew that every opponent were going to the pairings sheet every time, they would reconsider their options.
  
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Re: Is this a real trick?
Reply #3 - 09/22/19 at 11:38:30
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I've already seen this trick in tournaments. If my opponent offers a handshake, I wait for him to stop the clock first before shaking it.
  
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Re: Is this a real trick?
Reply #2 - 09/22/19 at 07:34:43
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Well the kid did claim that he said "draw?" but neither I nor the witnesses (the table next to us) heard anything. Then again, it's not like I hear all draw offers from the neighboring boards so that's not conclusive.
  
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Re: Is this a real trick?
Reply #1 - 09/22/19 at 07:20:42
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I experienced this trick in the past, too. Fortunately not in my own games. As organizer you should take the kid aside and give him a speech he will never forget in his life. And that he loses the game shouldn´t be up to debate neither.

The only problem, that can occour, is that the kid denies all accusations and says, that he offered the draw in a normal way. Then the blitz solution might be okay, but hopefully the kid will not dare to use the trick in the same tournament or with the same players around ever again.

When it comes to kids: Never let them report the result, when it is your duty. There is a reason for it;)

Normally there are some witnesses around (players on the boards nearby or simply spectators), you can ask.
  
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Is this a real trick?
09/22/19 at 06:56:17
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I'm about 1700 and I was playing in a rapid tournament against a lower-rated opponent. I think he was 13. He played OK but dropped a pawn in the opening and we ended up in this position (roughly). Unfortunately I don't know whose turn it was. At this point, we both had about 5-10 minutes (actually I remembered I had more time, he remembered the opposite).

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

At this point, my opponent resigned and ran to the organiser to report the result. I thought nothing of it, maybe he likes reporting results himself.

About 5 minutes later I thought I might as well check what he reported and saw that he thought when he offered me a handshake, he was offering a draw. I didn't hear anything (neither did the other table next to us.. but that's not really the point) when he did it and he didn't have a questioning look on his face at all. It all looked like a resignation. I was a bit surprised but I have had weaker players resign in somewhat playable positions already, and after all (to me at least) it was an obvious win.

In the end, what happened was that we played a blitz game from this position. I easily won and got my point.

But I have three questions:
  1. I guess the best is to ask what it means whenever someone reaches their hand like this to me. But isn't that patronising/rubbing it in? I know Anish Giri said he asked Sam Shankland what he had meant when he resigned in a drawn position. So I guess it's OK to do at 1700 level as well.
  2. What is an arbiter supposed to do in these cases? At the time, I was annoyed that I had to play it out, but I now think it was a fair solution.
  3. Since this caused a bit of a commotion, several people talked to me later. They were all friendly, but they told me that kids do this "trick" all the time. The trick being not that they offer draws in bad positions hoping I accept, but that they offer draws ambiguously and hope I shake hands. I honestly still can't believe it, despite hearing it from 3 different people. Now that I think of it, the fact that he ran to the arbiter (I was walking towards him myself but he overtook me) was suspicious. Is this really a thing???
  
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