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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) A 2019 version of Cox's Starting Out 1.d4 rep? (Read 7618 times)
kylemeister
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Re: A 2019 version of Cox's Starting Out 1.d4 rep?
Reply #15 - 10/15/19 at 17:47:31
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RoleyPoley wrote on 10/15/19 at 17:26:11:
Wasnt the Lemos book one of the titles that appeared to be on the schedule for release a couple of years ago but kept gettng pushed back?

Maybe; I know that it was delayed for quite a while.
  
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RoleyPoley
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Re: A 2019 version of Cox's Starting Out 1.d4 rep?
Reply #14 - 10/15/19 at 17:26:11
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kylemeister wrote on 10/15/19 at 00:52:28:
Speaking of Lemos and the Exchange QGD, it appears from the sample at Amazon that he doesn't address 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cd ed 5.Bg5 c6 6.Qc2 Be7 7.e3 Nbd7 8.Bd3 0-0 9.Nge2 Re8 10.0-0 Nf8 11.f3 g6 (considered "!" in Chess Publishing three years ago, and seen in two Mamedyarov-Radjabov games at the recent World Cup).


Wasnt the Lemos book one of the titles that appeared to be on the schedule for release a couple of years ago but kept gettng pushed back?
  

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kylemeister
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Re: A 2019 version of Cox's Starting Out 1.d4 rep?
Reply #13 - 10/15/19 at 00:52:28
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Speaking of Lemos and the Exchange QGD, it appears from the sample at Amazon that he doesn't address 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cd ed 5.Bg5 c6 6.Qc2 Be7 7.e3 Nbd7 8.Bd3 0-0 9.Nge2 Re8 10.0-0 Nf8 11.f3 g6 (considered "!" in Chess Publishing three years ago, and seen in two Mamedyarov-Radjabov games at the recent World Cup).
  
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Re: A 2019 version of Cox's Starting Out 1.d4 rep?
Reply #12 - 10/15/19 at 00:50:07
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IMO,

King's Indian: Mar Del Plata or h3 system
Grunfeld: Exchange Variation with Be3
(Avoiding the Nimzo-Indian with 3 Nf3)
Queen's Indian: 4 g3, maybe with 4...Ba6 5 Qc2
Bogo-Indian: 4 Nbd2
Modern Benoni: 7 Bf4
Benko Gambit: Accepted with 12 a4
Queen's Gambit Declined: Bf4 variation
Ragozin: 5 cxd5 exd5 6 Bg5
Vienna Variation: 6 Bxc4
Tarrasch: 6 dxc5
Semi-Tarrasch 6 e4
Queen's Gambit Accepted: 3 e4
Slav: 4 Nc3 with 6 Ne5, e3 system or Exchange Variation
Semi-Slav: 5 Bg5
Chigorin: 3 Nc3 maybe?
Albin: 5 a3
Dutch: g3 systems
Budapest: 4 Bf4
Modern: analogous to approach against the KID
1...d6: 2 Nf3
English Defense: 4 Bd3
1...e6 2 c4 Bb4+: 3 Nd2 maybe?
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: A 2019 version of Cox's Starting Out 1.d4 rep?
Reply #11 - 10/14/19 at 23:33:11
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I looked at the Lemos 1.d4 d5 2.c4 repertoire for White in a bookstore and couldn't find Ntirlis' lines with ...h6 against the Exchange QGD addressed anywhere(?!). Well, I suppose that's good for Ntirlis!

Lemos can be pretty sloppy around the edges. In his White Fianchetto repertoire he says at one point that it doesn't hurt to throw in an early Nf3 if you don't want to face, etc. But then he goes on to rely on some lines that require Ne2.
« Last Edit: 10/15/19 at 09:47:44 by ReneDescartes »  
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MNb
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Re: A 2019 version of Cox's Starting Out 1.d4 rep?
Reply #10 - 10/14/19 at 06:18:53
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Stigma wrote on 10/13/19 at 20:07:15:
for people who need completeness.

I didn't ask for completeness; that results in Openings according to Kramnik etc.
If you're willing to sacrifice "solid coverage" to keep books manageable that's a fair choice. A Startling Opening Repertoire does so with advocating the Cochrane Gambit; GM Schandorff does so with his proposals against the Dutch. That's my point, nothing more. Regarding the latter IM Cummings did a far better job, I noticed.
That's the irony of your comment - to close such gaps many buyers will need more books anyway. There is no miracle cure - a "solid coverage" of a repertoire based on big main lines can't be crammed in just two books.
  

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Stigma
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Re: A 2019 version of Cox's Starting Out 1.d4 rep?
Reply #9 - 10/13/19 at 20:07:15
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MNb wrote on 10/13/19 at 15:18:59:
ReneDescartes wrote on 10/13/19 at 14:56:28:
I fail to see why Schandorff couldn't update his repertoire in the same spirit of the original.

Then it's a good thing that that was not my point. My point was rather that your argument (and similar ones) apply to all decent repertoire books, including IM Cox'Starting Out 1.d4 and the Startling Opening Repertoire. My secondary point is that two volumes probably won't be enough.

Stating the obvious here, but the number of volumes needed depends largely on how detailed you want to be, i. e. on the target audience (how sharp the chosen lines are makes a difference too). For instance Damian Lemos just a released a one-volume White repertoire book in the Queen's Gambit with a lot of the same lines as Schandorff had, the main difference being Lemos gives the Exchange Slav (which admittedly saves a lot of space).

Frankly I don't find 3-, 4- or 10-volume repertoires very user-friendly, especially not for people with jobs and other interests besides chess. I have used some of Schandorff's lines through the years, but I'm not sure I would have been attracted to his repertoire if it had been a lot more than 2 books.

A repertoire can give the most important lines and some nice novelties, but for people who need completeness (as well as for keeping it up-to-date) there are always sources like ChessPublishing, CBM and Informator.
  

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Re: A 2019 version of Cox's Starting Out 1.d4 rep?
Reply #8 - 10/13/19 at 19:47:34
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While modern top level chess has moved into the post-theoretical realm, I think it's perfectly possible to play strongly theoretical lines as a primary repertoire up to a high level.

The problem is that the theory tends to follow the top players, and when the top players start playing earlier deviations, that's also where the theory goes.

In the spirit of what the thread was intended to address, I'm going to offer some lines:

1. King's Indian. Probably the Makogonov (h3).
2. Keep the Modern Main Line against the Benoni.
3. f3 Nimzo.
4. Exchange Gruenfeld, Nf3 followed by Be3.
5. Kaufmann's King Walk followed by a4 against the Benko.
6. Still Ne5 against the Classical Slav.
7. The Qc2/Bd3 anti-Meran against the Semi-Slav.

I don't believe many of those are legitimate tries for an advantage, but they're my choices nonetheless.
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: A 2019 version of Cox's Starting Out 1.d4 rep?
Reply #7 - 10/13/19 at 18:37:02
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I agree; I wasn't disagreeing with you. I just wanted to say that the kind of lines Scarblac listed--which we do see most often today -- wouldn't have to be the equivalent now of the older repertoire.
  
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MNb
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Re: A 2019 version of Cox's Starting Out 1.d4 rep?
Reply #6 - 10/13/19 at 15:18:59
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ReneDescartes wrote on 10/13/19 at 14:56:28:
I fail to see why Schandorff couldn't update his repertoire in the same spirit of the original.

Then it's a good thing that that was not my point. My point was rather that your argument (and similar ones) apply to all decent repertoire books, including IM Cox'Starting Out 1.d4 and the Startling Opening Repertoire. My secondary point is that two volumes probably won't be enough.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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ReneDescartes
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Re: A 2019 version of Cox's Starting Out 1.d4 rep?
Reply #5 - 10/13/19 at 14:56:28
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Deviations now regularly happen in top-level tournaments on move 8,9,11, etc. -- but not because the long theoretical lines don't exist anymore. They're too much work to memorize compared to the benefit, too risky to remember, and often thought to be worked out eventually to equality; therefore memorizing them is less profitable for professionals than mastering new (equal) strategical concepts which the centaur may create in unfamiliar positions, as brabo was saying in another thread.

The theory of forcing main lines may be worked out in many cases to an equal position, but what of it? The fact matters little if both opponents don't know the theory. Lines such as the e3 Semi-Slav are more common than the Botvinnik variation today, but not better than the Botvinnik variation if you know the latter and your opponent doesn't.

Now, you may not get a chance to play theoretical sharp lines  very often these days, but they are still capable of winning for you if you know the theory. I fail to see why Schandorff couldn't update his repertoire in the same spirit of the original. Of course the lines have changed a lot; that comes with the territory he chose to work on.

As evidence I might cite Kasparov's recent appearances. He obtained a superior position in the early middlegame in nearly every encounter! If his opponents were playing offbeat blitz stuff, that only increases the resemblance between his case and how a booked player might profit in an amateur tournament.

Not that I am advocating extensive deep opening study--I think other means of improvement are more profitable for ordinary mortals--but the arguments behind Schandorff's book still present a valid point of view. Negi's work is too in-depth, but if you could truncate the lines at the point where your opponents won't often know them, it might be seen as a modern 1.e4 version of Schandorff. 
  
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MNb
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Re: A 2019 version of Cox's Starting Out 1.d4 rep?
Reply #4 - 10/13/19 at 07:29:13
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VGA wrote on 10/12/19 at 01:40:15:
You need two books to try to cover White side solidly.

When I read this I was a bit surprised.

VGA wrote on 10/13/19 at 00:47:06:
If you want a master level repertoire that pushes for the advantage in all lines then I repeat my Schandorff recommendation, the newer Playing d4 series, don't be confused by his older books.

Schandorff doesn't push for an advantage in all lines. He more or less admits it himself in the line 1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5.
Actually your recommendation confirms that two books are not enough. One glaring omission for instance (though the author can't help it, because GM MVL introduced the idea after the book was finished) is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Qb3 dxc4 6.Qxc4 O-O 7.e4 Nc6 8.Be2 e5 9.d5 Nd4 10.Nxd4 exd4 11.Qxd4 c6 and "the right way to question Black's sacrifice is to hold on to the extra pawn" with 12.Qc4, after which Black has fun with b5!
The two books contain more gaps, enough to maintain that the second quote contradicts the first one.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: A 2019 version of Cox's Starting Out 1.d4 rep?
Reply #3 - 10/12/19 at 01:34:13
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Well, Lars Schandorff has two Playing d4 books, one for the QG and the other for the indian defences.
  
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Re: A 2019 version of Cox's Starting Out 1.d4 rep?
Reply #2 - 10/02/19 at 19:42:01
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Catalan and some Neo-London rubbish against everything else Smiley

(only half-joking...)
« Last Edit: 10/03/19 at 09:50:37 by Dink Heckler »  

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Re: A 2019 version of Cox's Starting Out 1.d4 rep?
Reply #1 - 10/02/19 at 14:32:16
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Scarblac wrote on 10/02/19 at 12:36:07:
In 2006, John Cox's "Starting Out: 1.d4!" came out. It famously advocated the most ambitious, main line, theoretical lines as used at the time by top players, based on 1.d4 and 2.c4:

- The Bayonet against the King's Indian
- The Modern Main Line (h3/Bd3) against the Benoni
- 4.Qc2 against the Nimzo
- 7.Nf3 / 8.Rb1 in the exchange Grunfeld
- g3/Bg2 and 10.Rb1 against the Benko
- The Exchange QGD with Nge2
- Nc3 and Nf3, 6.Ne5 against the Slav
- The Botvinnik System against the Semi-Slav

And so on. Just all the most ambitious lines.

What would a similar repertoire in 2019 look like? Most of those lines are not seen as the most challenging at top level anymore, as far as I know, most of the sharpest stuff seems too analyzed by computers.

I think the Benko is now the line with g3 and Kg2 followed by 12.a4 (or is it? I haven't looked for a while) but find it hard to think of the rest.



A tentative reply from a Grand Patzer:

- Some early Nf3, h3, Be3 line against King's Indian
- f4 and Bb5+ against the Benoni (Taimanov variation)
- 3.Nf3 d5 vs. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6, with perhaps 4.Nc3 Be7 5.Bf4 b6 to follow.

- early Be3 (without Nf3) in the exchange Grunfeld, or maybe some early h4 line
- g3/Bg2 and 12.a4 against the Benko
- The Exchange QGD with or without Nge2
- some early e3 line against the Slav
- some anti-Meran line against the Semi-Slav

Just my two cents of course
  
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