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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) The Classical Pirc (Read 7202 times)
MNb
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Re: The Classical Pirc
Reply #19 - 02/03/23 at 17:07:52
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My personal terminology: given 4.Be3 and 5.Qd2
6.f3 is the Argentinean Attack;
6.Bh6 is the Pseudo-Argentinean Attack;
6.Nf3 is the 150-Attack.

Only few chessplayers listen to me though.
  

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Re: The Classical Pirc
Reply #18 - 02/03/23 at 16:17:39
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Hi.

To expand a bit. If white starts off:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Nf3 (or 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be3)
I am actually not sure what that is called. It seems like a subvariation of the two knights Pirc and without checking anything, I'm sure a very popular one as well. Still don't think it is a named subvariation despite this. 

If 5...c6 6.Qd2 you can however argue the opening becomes a 150 attack. Simply because a common and very logical way to reach the position is 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Nf3.

If 5...a6 6.Qd2 you arguably don't quite have as logical of a way to reach the position from a 150 attack move order because
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 a6 6.Bh6 is supposed to be quite strong. Sidenote: That has not stopped me from playing this quite a few times though Smiley
Relatively speaking it makes somewhat more sense to reach the position from
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Nf3 a6 6.Qd2 for the above reason. Mainly for simplicity and commonality to 5...c6 6.Qd2 I still consider the position as having entered a 150 attack when the queen goes to d2.


Have a nice day
  
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RosemarysBaby
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Re: The Classical Pirc
Reply #17 - 02/03/23 at 09:48:59
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Right, a 150-attack transposition I should probably get more literate about that whole complex, one-sided maybe but a 35-move draw is not bad at all. 

1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Nf3 O-O 5.Be3 a6 6.Qd2 O-O 7.Bh6 Nc6
Spent some time with this, and black doesn't look busted. The lines do have a very similar feel to the dragon, but having skipped to the bishop trade black misses the trademark tactical trickery and heads straight into this territory:
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1536441
This Leela game demonstrates the plan: tight defense, active queenside play, and a well-timed e6->exd5:
https://www.tcec-chess.com/archive.html?season=23&div=ne2&game=51

Not to hype that line too much. There are ideas that pose a serious challenge:
8.O-O-O b5 9.Bxg7 Kxg7
Followed by Qe3, Qe1 or Qf4 all defending e4 against b4->Nxe4. Black can try to stabilize with e6 or play straight b4. It's quite unclear how everything balances out.
8.d5 Ne5 9.Nxe5 dxe5 10.h4 b5
11.Bxg7 Kxg7 12.h5 b4 13.Ne2 Nxe4 14.Qxb4 Qxd5 15.Rd1 Qc6 16.Qxe7 Nf6 17.hxg6 Be6
A mess, black could've opted for Nxh5 instead of Nxe4, and the resulting game would be similar to the 12...Bxd4 Yugoslav dragon with some extra pawn dynamics and good chances to consolidate an advantage for white.
11.f3 b4 12.Na4 Bxh6 13.Qxh6 [edit: the most direct follow-up would be something like 13...Qd6 14.b3 Bd7 15.Nb2 e6 where whites play is pretty forced in trying to save the knight.]
This is what I got leaving SF to think on 11.f3 for a good while. The line just goes on and on. There are too many complications and decision moments coming up to draw a conclusion. 12...e6 is also interesting.
11.Bd3 
Following the Leela game.
« Last Edit: 02/03/23 at 11:24:51 by RosemarysBaby »  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: The Classical Pirc
Reply #16 - 01/30/23 at 23:18:47
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Hi.

1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.Be3 a6 6.Qd2 O-O 7.Bh6 b5 8.Bd3 Nc6 9.Bxg7 Kxg7 10.e5 dxe5 11.dxe5 Ng4 12.O-O-O b4 13.Rhe1

I guess would be a 150 attack by transposition. It has been considered critical for a pretty long time by now. Daniel Fernandez and Parimarjan Negi are two recent analysts.

Latest correspondence game seems to be:
Willmann, Bernd  (2358)   --   Enev, Zlatko  (2380)
ST-00186  LSS
2021.03.29  1/2-1/2

1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Be3 O-O 6.Qd2 a6 7.Bh6 b5 8.Bd3 Nc6 9.Bxg7 Kxg7 10.e5 dxe5 11.dxe5 Ng4 12.O-O-O b4 13.Rhe1 Rb8 14.Na4 Qd5 15.b3 Ncxe5 16.Nxe5 Nxe5 17.Bf1 Qxd2+ 18.Rxd2 Nc6 19.Rd5 Nd8 20.Bc4 Be6 21.Rc5 Bxc4 22.Rxc4 Ne6 23.Ree4 Rb5 24.Rxb4 Ra5 25.g3 Rd8 26.Nc3 Rf5 27.Re2 h5 28.Nd1 Nd4 29.Re4 Ne6 30.Rbc4 Kf8 31.Re2 Rd4 32.Rxd4 Nxd4 33.Re4 Rd5 34.Ne3 Rd8 35.f4 1/2-1/2 

Have a nice day.
/ CbT
  
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RosemarysBaby
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Re: The Classical Pirc
Reply #15 - 01/30/23 at 13:27:45
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Got a little bit carried away with the Ne5 motif. 
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.Be3 a6
I like the a6 move, if a modern player pushed 5...c6 they'd also have to have another response to this move order:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.Nf3
Giri has plaid this line with white extensively, a good fit for both the Pirc and modern: 

It's principled in the dragon to place a pawn to e5 after the bishop trade right. Wouldn't it make sense here too?:
6.Qd2 O-O 7.Bh6 Nc6
SF is initially not very happy, but some of the lines do milden out. I won't post them yet, too much inconclusive stuff.
7...b5 8.Bd3 Nc6 9.Bxg7 Kxg7 10.e5 dxe5 11.dxe5 Ng4 12.O-O-O b4 13.Rhe1
Is still considered a problem from what I understand. The machine gives 7...c5 which looks to lead to reasonable positions. 
The a6 line looks solid outside of the Bh6 business:
7.Bd3 Nc6
Works comfortably with the familiar Ne5/e5 central scheme and some well-timed issues with Ng4 and b5->b4.
7.O-O-O b5 8.Bd3 b4
Just have to spam more TCEC games, but this one is truly remarkable.
https://www.tcec-chess.com/archive.html?season=23&div=ne2&game=63
SF fancies that 20.Ra7 was a big error and gives Nd7 +a minor edge for white, doesn't really say much given the actual position though.
8...b4 isn't the only move there, in fact, the computer suggests 8...c5 again. The lines there look far calmer and very playable.

I don't think that this line would be classified as a classical Pirc though, maybe there is a thread/discussion on it?

About the previous game, yep it was plaid with a relatively quick time format it is definitely not optimal play. I think it's nice to see engines getting confused for once, that Rg8->Rf8 was surely a genius way to provoke h3.
  
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Re: The Classical Pirc
Reply #14 - 01/29/23 at 17:52:23
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Hi.

RosemarysBaby wrote on 01/28/23 at 06:29:00:
I'll be posting and analyzing more about this line soon enough. Here's an interesting reference game in the Bc4 line from some of the weaker engines in TCEC, still miles above human play.

https://www.tcec-chess.com/archive.html?season=22&div=l3&game=87

Stupendously dynamic game, on the site you can see how the engines start disagreeing heavily on the evaluation until blacks kingside play truly kicks off. 

It's a very interesting line for sure.

In the case of that game it seems like the engine playing white underestimated both 20...b4 and 29...g3. Those proved bothersome.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: The Classical Pirc
Reply #13 - 01/28/23 at 06:29:00
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I'll be posting and analyzing more about this line soon enough. Here's an interesting reference game in the Bc4 line from some of the weaker engines in TCEC, still miles above human play.

https://www.tcec-chess.com/archive.html?season=22&div=l3&game=87

Stupendously dynamic game, on the site you can see how the engines start disagreeing heavily on the evaluation until blacks kingside play truly kicks off.
  
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Re: The Classical Pirc
Reply #12 - 08/31/22 at 15:33:25
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Hi.

RosemarysBaby wrote on 08/31/22 at 08:42:44:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be2 O-O 6.O-O Nc6 7.d5 Ne5 8.Nxe5 dxe5
Now black has a very direct plan of e6 to reach a really solid position. for example
9.Be3 e6 10.dxe6 Bxe6 11.Qxd8 Qxd8 is pretty much a symmetrical endgame after Bf8.

More challenging moves are
9.Bg5 trying to meet e6 with f4. Here there is a pretty cool engine line: 9...h6 10.Bh4 c6!? 11.dxc6 Qb6
With plans of Qxb2 or Qxc6. 11.cxb7 Bxb7 12.Bxf6 (to deal with the double threat of Nxe4 and Qxb2.) Bxf6. Black sacs a pawn for the bishop pair and positional pressure.
10...Qd6 insisting on e6 and maybe looking for Qb4 could also work.

Hammer doesn't cover this 10...c6 move. It looks fairly critical though.

As usual the line (6...Nc6) is not hot at all in correspondence, so it is not easy to get any guidance from that. There are some older games but I wouldn't look at them so much.

In general 6...Nc6 7.d5 Ne5 is certainly interesting. You get the impression that after:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be2 O-O 6.O-O Nc6 7.d5 Ne5 8.Nxe5 dxe5
White needs to do something before black can play ...e6 and ...exd5; which to add to problems would normally come very quickly.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be2 O-O 6.O-O Nc6 7.d5 Ne5 8.Nxe5 dxe5 9.Bc4 
Looks somewhat critical for this reason, but it's hard to believe black cannot get counterplay somehow. I looked at the slightly desperate looking idea of ramming the a-pawn down the board, but it's just unclear.
10.a4
Should probably be played at some point.
10...Nd6
10...a5 11.b3 Nd6 12.Qe2 f5 13.Bb2 f4 14.f3 h5 15.Nd1 Kh7 16.Nf2
may be a little something for white, but it's going to be a long game ahead.
11.Qe2 f5 12.a5 Bd7!? 
Black is probably quite solid here, but it's a position that can be played.

12...a6 13.f3 f4 14.Nd1 g5 15.Nf2 Qe8 16.b3 h5 17.Bb2 Qg6 18.Nd3 g4 19.Bxe5 gxf3 20.Qxf3 Bg4 21.Qf2 Nxe4 Seems unclear
12...f4 13.a6 f3!? (13...b6 may be better) 14.gxf3 Qd7 15.axb7 Bxb7 16.Bd3 Looks horrible for both players. White could be a little bit better though, with perhaps slightly better structure long term and pawn up in the short term.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: The Classical Pirc
Reply #11 - 08/31/22 at 08:42:44
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I find this lesser plaid idea in the Nc6 line pretty interesting.

1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. Be2 O-O 6. O-O Nc6 7. d5 Ne5 8. Nxe5 dxe5
Now black has a very direct plan of e6 to reach a really solid position. for example
9.Be3 e6 10.dxe6 Bxe6 11.Qxd8 Qxd8 is pretty much a symmetrical endgame after Bf8.

More challenging moves are
9.Bg5 trying to meet e6 with f4. Here there is a pretty cool engine line: 9...h6 10.Bh4 c6!? 11.dxc6 Qb6 
With plans of Qxb2 or Qxc6. 11.cxb7 Bxb7 12.Bxf6 (to deal with the double threat of Nxe4 and Qxb2.) Bxf6. Black sacs a pawn for the bishop pair and positional pressure.
10...Qd6 insisting on e6 and maybe looking for Qb4 could also work.

9.Bc4 Ne8 and black can almost universally follow up with Nd6->f5 exploiting the position of the bishop and whites slow development. Black can follow with some Kings Indian type attacking ideas.

9.Qd3 e6
    10.Rd1 exd5 11.Nxd5 Be6 (Nxd5 12.c4!) 12.Nxf6 Qxf6   13.Qc3 Qe7 14.Be3 b6 and while the position is slightly better for white due to c6 I have a hard time thinking white will win with just one imbalance.
    10.dxe6 Bxe6 11.Qb5 Rb8 (b6 seems fine too) 
         12.Qxe5 Nd5 is a pretty neat sacrifice 
         12.Qa5 a6, now black will play c6 insisting on a queen trade, then Bf8 and again I think the position is solid enough.
  
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Re: The Classical Pirc
Reply #10 - 10/21/19 at 15:00:08
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Heya.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 10/19/19 at 05:57:45:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be2 a6 5.c4 Bg4 6.Nc3 Nc6 7.Be3 e5 8.d5 Bxf3 9.Bxf3 Nd4 10.Bxd4 exd4 11.Ne2 c5 12.dxc6 bxc6

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 10/19/19 at 00:11:25:
This is one of the key variations. Having spent a tempo on a6 doesn't matter much for black it seems.

Did you have any opinion of Stockfish's 13.O-O Qb6 14.b4 ... ? White's edge there seems bigger than anything white gets in the sample pages of Kaufman's latest repertoire.

I suppose it's a mix between a static and dynamic position where black suffers slightly from having split and marginally advanced pawns.

There is also:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be2 a6 5.c4 Bg4 6.Nc3 Nc6 7.Be3 e5 8.d5 Bxf3 9.Bxf3 Nd4 10.Bxd4 exd4 11.Ne2 c5 12.dxc6 bxc6 13.0-0 c5
Where white needs to convince himself he has a real edge. There are various tries but reaching firm conclusions is hard in such messy positions. It is fair to say white has initiative though and this is in most cases enough for a practical game.

What I like most though is:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be2 a6 5.c4 Bg4 6.Nc3 Nc6 7.Be3 e5 8.d5 Bxf3 9.Bxf3 Nd4 10.Bxd4 exd4 11.Ne2 Ne7!?
Basically planning c5 and Nxc6 if white takes en passant.
12.0-0
12.Nxd4 c5 13.Ne2 b5 looks like enough compensation to me, but grovel-minded white players may disagree. Something tells me this was the continuation that happened when I played this a few years ago but I really can't recall. If 13.dxc6 Qa5+ is a nice disturbing move.
12...c5 13.dxc6 Nxc6 14.Nf4
White is optically better with more sound looking pawns. Black still looks to face a very small amount of positional risk though. He has quite excellent dark square control.

Have a nice day.

Alas. As noted.
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be2 a6 5.0-0
Works. So the whole way of playing is situational here.
  
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Re: The Classical Pirc
Reply #9 - 10/19/19 at 05:57:45
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1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be2 a6 5.c4 Bg4 6.Nc3 Nc6 7.Be3 e5 8.d5 Bxf3 9.Bxf3 Nd4 10.Bxd4 exd4 11.Ne2 c5 12.dxc6 bxc6

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 10/18/19 at 23:11:25:
This is one of the key variations. Having spent a tempo on a6 doesn't matter much for black it seems.
 
Did you have any opinion of Stockfish's 13.O-O Qb6 14.b4 ... ? White's edge there seems bigger than anything white gets in the sample pages of Kaufman's latest repertoire.
  
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Re: The Classical Pirc
Reply #8 - 10/18/19 at 23:25:38
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Hello.

1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be2 Nf6 5.Nc3 0-0 6.0-0 Nc6 7.d5 Nb8 8.a4

Is also recommended. Here I think it's a bit sad but black should probably just play a5 and Na6+Nb4. The problem is that after a7-a5 black should not go back to e5 or e6 ideas because white just takes (en passant if needed) so he has to play another game with c6 at some point.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: The Classical Pirc
Reply #7 - 10/18/19 at 23:11:25
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Hello.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 10/18/19 at 20:04:27:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be2
Patrick Wolff once wrote in Chess Horizons that if white wants to play the Classical then this is the most accurate move order.
4...a6 5.c4 Bg4 6.Nc3 Nc6 7.Be3 e5 8.d5
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 10/18/19 at 20:04:27:
8...Bxf3 9.Bxf3 Nd4 10.Bxd4!? exd4 11.Ne2 c5 12.dxc6 bxc6
Black looks okay here

This is one of the key variations. Having spent a tempo on a6 doesn't matter much for black it seems.

Just playing King's Indian like positions is probably quite bad after having gone both a6 and Bg4. In general I don't get the feeling black can play these structures with less than optimal moves thrown in even when there is no pawn on c4.

kylemeister wrote on 10/18/19 at 19:31:37:
So what does he go with against 6...Bg4?  I recall that one of the various old possibilities, 7. Be3 Nc6 8. d5, was claimed to lead to an edge quite some years ago.

After 6...Bg4 he goes for the sensical line:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be2 Nf6 5.Nc3 0-0 6.0-0 Bg4 7.h3 Bxf3 8.Bxf3 Nc6 9.Ne2

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: The Classical Pirc
Reply #6 - 10/18/19 at 20:08:07
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oh the humanity
  
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Re: The Classical Pirc
Reply #5 - 10/18/19 at 20:04:27
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 10/18/19 at 11:21:28:

1.e4 g6 2.d4 d6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.Be2
4...a6 and now it is a mystery to me why everyone concludes the line with 5.c4 += as 5...Bg4 at least gives black the chance to reach somewhat acceptable positions should he get to play Nc6 and e5.


It just so happens I recently had this on the board. My opponent formerly played the Sicilian, Hyper-Accelerated Dragon or Nimzowitsch variations, but recently switched to the Modern on the theory that young players are more likely to be confused by it.

Allan Bennett, aka an ordinary chessplayer (2200) vs Alan Casden (2100) 
offhand (no clocks), Mulligan CC, 2019.09.14

1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be2 
Patrick Wolff once wrote in Chess Horizons that if white wants to play the Classical then this is the most accurate move order. 
4...a6 5.c4 Bg4 6.Nc3 Nc6 7.Be3 e5 8.d5 Nce7?! 
(After the game I suggested the improvement 
8...Bxf3 9.Bxf3 Nd4 10.Bxd4!? exd4 11.Ne2 c5 12.dxc6 bxc6 
Black looks okay here 
13.O-O 
(We looked at two other moves: 13.e5 Ne7; 13.Nxd4 Qb6.) 
13...Qb6 14.b4! 
This fine move is Stockfish's suggestion. It didn't occur to me at all.) 
9.c5 f5? 
Two weeks later, against one of the young guns at the club, my opponent played a similarly horrid ...f7-f5 in a Hippo (so-called, although Hugh Myers said Mr. Thompson didn't play it the modern way). I hope he will learn to restrain himself, although we seniorish citizens are slow on the uptake. 
10.Ng5 Bxe2 11.Qxe2 f4? 12.Ne6 Qd7 13.Nxg7+ Kf7 14.Ne6 fxe3 15.O-O Nf6 16.f4 Rhe8 17.fxe5 dxe5 18.Rxf6+ Kxf6 19.Rf1+ Nf5 20.exf5 gxf5 21.Qh5 
1-0
  

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