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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Modernised Berlin Wall (Read 5766 times)
Syzygy
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #50 - 05/14/20 at 04:27:47
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Jack Hughes wrote on 05/14/20 at 02:03:43:
They agree with you that this is a good way for white to kill the game (they're more excited about 9. d4 Ne8), saying that "Black can neutralise the White advantage, but it is difficult to obtain serious winning chances provided that white plays well". They give the mainline with 9... Ne8 against it.


I can understand that conclusion. I think the critical position of this variation occurs after 16. d3, which really doesn't look that threatening. But modern chess is modern chess, and after a logical continuation like 16...f5 17. Qf3 Nf6 18. a4!? I can't shake the feeling that Black is a tiny bit worse.

Jack Hughes wrote on 05/14/20 at 02:03:43:
The 'Crush the ...' name does at least give some indication as to the style of his courses. Crush the Semi-Slav recommends 5. Bg5 with a very aggressive surprise weapon against the Botvinnik (I don't think he would want me saying in public what it is at this point) and the Grischuk-Ding plan in the Anti-Moscow.


Grischuk-Ding was an interesting game demonstrating White's chances in the Anti-Moscow, but I think after the improvement 20...b4 21. Kh1 Ba6 White has to be just as careful as Black. Certainly correspondence games weren't able to prove anything beyond sufficient compensation for the piece.

Jack Hughes wrote on 05/14/20 at 02:03:43:
Crush the Italian recommends 3... Nf6 and spends considerable time analysing the sharpest lines (often really bad for white) in the 4. Ng5 complex and based on the course table of contents will recommend classical approaches based on an early ...a6 with considerable attention to (i) the standard g-pawn attack when white combines early kingside with h2-h3 and (ii) the ...Ng4 followed by ...f5 idea when white castles kingside and plays Re1 before h3.


Those are certainly aggressive plans for Black, and quite attractive if they can be pulled off. I'm in full agreement that the 4. Ng5 complex is becoming more and more attractive for Black (i.e. Gustafsson has analyzed Black's sharpest tries in his Chessable course), but in the Italian proper with ...a6 White doesn't need to be so cooperative.

For instance, after 5. O-O d6 6. c3 a6 7. a4 Ba7 8. Re1 I don't think the immediate 8...Ng4 works for Black, and following 8...O-O 9. h3, 9...Kh8 10. d4 cuts across Black's attacking plans. Of course Black should be fine after calmer continuations like 9...h6, but I don't think that will involve crushing anything anytime soon.


  
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Jack Hughes
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #49 - 05/14/20 at 02:03:43
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Syzygy wrote on 05/13/20 at 18:59:28:
When I was looking at the 5. Re1 lines in the Berlin, what bothered me the most was the lines with 7...Nxe5 8. Rxe5 O-O 9. Nc3, where White just goes for the bishop pair. Wherever I looked, it seemed that White at least maintained a symbolic edge. I would be happy to know how the upcoming Chessable course hopes to keep the game alive in this line, but I think in general neutralizing 4. d3 and 5. Re1 is a thankless task for Berlin Endgame fans.
Also, "Crush" the Semi-Slav and Italian? Really?

They agree with you that this is a good way for white to kill the game (they're more excited about 9. d4 Ne8), saying that "Black can neutralise the White advantage, but it is difficult to obtain serious winning chances provided that white plays well". They give the mainline with 9... Ne8 against it.

Obviously the names of those courses are a bit biased, but I think people familiar with his previous work (Crush the Taiamnov[/i, [i]Crush the London], Mop up the Morra know to expect that from him. It's not as if he's the first person to use such names (Winning with the Sicilian Dragon by Edward Dearing, How to Beat the Sicilian Defence by Gawain Jones, Slay the Spanish by Tim Taylor etc.

The 'Crush the ...' name does at least give some indication as to the style of his courses. Crush the Semi-Slav recommends 5. Bg5 with a very aggressive surprise weapon against the Botvinnik (I don't think he would want me saying in public what it is at this point) and the Grischuk-Ding plan in the Anti-Moscow; Crush the Italian recommends 3... Nf6 and spends considerable time analysing the sharpest lines (often really bad for white) in the 4. Ng5 complex and based on the course table of contents will recommend classical approaches based on an early ...a6 with considerable attention to (i) the standard g-pawn attack when white combines early kingside with h2-h3 and (ii) the ...Ng4 followed by ...f5 idea when white castles kingside and plays Re1 before h3.
  
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MW
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #48 - 05/13/20 at 19:18:52
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First-up I tried to transpose it into the two knights and after 4 d3 Be7, 5 0-0 0-0 6 Re1 I followed Bologan's recommendation 6....d6 (idea...Be6). Never really got into any trouble but just didn't feel familiar or passionate about the position. My last correspondence game with the line was 2018 and never really bothered looking at it again.
  
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #47 - 05/13/20 at 18:59:28
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Jack Hughes wrote on 05/13/20 at 10:54:07:
On this topic I would like to note that there is an upcoming Chessable course, The Ambitious Berlin, being co-authored by Elijah Logozar and Yuriy Krykun ...They're also pretty honest about the dryness of the 5. Re1 line, but even there the focus is on trying, as best as possible, to keep life in the position. 


When I was looking at the 5. Re1 lines in the Berlin, what bothered me the most was the lines with 7...Nxe5 8. Rxe5 O-O 9. Nc3, where White just goes for the bishop pair. Wherever I looked, it seemed that White at least maintained a symbolic edge. I would be happy to know how the upcoming Chessable course hopes to keep the game alive in this line, but I think in general neutralizing 4. d3 and 5. Re1 is a thankless task for Berlin Endgame fans.

Also, "Crush" the Semi-Slav and Italian? Really?

MW wrote on 05/13/20 at 18:33:14:
Played the Berlin Wall in correspondence a bit and always felt pretty comfortable with it...then everyone started playing the Italian lines which I'm not a great fan of as black.


Out of curiosity, what bothers you the most about the Italian? My preference is currently for the ...a5 lines, gaining space on the queenside, which seems to be holding up in correspondence play quite well (especially with the trendy ...a4 ideas in the modern lines).

  
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MW
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #46 - 05/13/20 at 18:33:14
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Interesting....I check the Chessable "Coming Soon" page regularly but to-date don't recall seeing any mention of this title...

Played the Berlin Wall in correspondence a bit and always felt pretty comfortable with it...then everyone started playing the Italian lines which I'm not a great fan of as black.
  
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Jack Hughes
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #45 - 05/13/20 at 10:54:07
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On this topic I would like to note that there is an upcoming Chessable course, The Ambitious Berlin, being co-authored by Elijah Logozar and Yuriy Krykun. As the course title implies, their goal is to choose the lines that best enable black to play for the win. As an example, in the Endgame they recommend lines based on ...Kc8 plans. Having beta tested the course I have no qualms in saying that it is of very high quality, easily the best course of Logozar's that I have tested (the others being Crush the Taimanov, Crush the Italian, and Crush the Semi-Slav), and the explanations are generally pretty good. For the Endgame they are absolutely outstanding - the course contains a 74 variation long 'Structural Archetypes' chapter that I believe may have been heavily influenced by Cox (certainly Logozar has praised that book in the Chessable forums). They're also pretty honest about the dryness of the 5. Re1 line, but even there the focus is on trying, as best as possible, to keep life in the position. 

For fans of print I think I heard somewhere that they were trying to get the course published as a book as well, but I can't remember any further details. At any rate, I would regard their course as the best resource available on the Berlin right now for a club level player trying to improve their understanding and get winning chances.
  
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #44 - 05/13/20 at 10:04:49
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The endgame I think is excellent to play for Black. It is an incredibly rich position with chances for both sides, and IMO actually easier to handle for Black, as he has a pretty straightforward general piece setup, while White doesn't really know where any of his pieces belong.

Really, the main question is whether you can stomach 5.Re1 / find something that makes it interesting, as it's what you'll face in roughly 1/3 of the games (with 1/3 ending and 1/3 4.d3). As long as you don't mind the positions, I think the Berlin is a perfectly good choice.

Fressinet has a c24 video series on the Berlin, which presumably gives the most "cutting edge" current theory, but it's very light on explanations, and again offers the rather dry approach in the ending (this Be7 Nh4 stuff, instantly trading off pieces), which isn't to everyone's cup of tea. Still, at least for the 4.d3 and 5.Re1 lines, it probably delivers the best you can get.
  
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #43 - 05/13/20 at 06:02:04
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Thanks for an ordinary chessplayer and nestor for comments.

Interesting to hear the opinion of grandmasters. This reminds me, by the way, Kasparov saying somewhere that amateurs should not play the sicilian.

I'm too old. I can dream to reach some day 2200 (not likely, my current rating is ca. 2100), but 2300 - no way. So in that sense anything goes. Obviously, however, I want to play openings that offer me best change to get enjoyable positions.
  

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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #42 - 05/13/20 at 03:55:19
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halbstark wrote on 05/11/20 at 19:48:26:
I would definetly not recommend this book, if you want to learn this opening.



Great review, thank you.


I also concur with Seeley and nestor that Cox's book remains the champion of learning and understanding the Berlin. Not 100% sure I agree that amateur's shouldn't learn it though.
  
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #41 - 05/13/20 at 00:05:42
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I'd concur with almost everything nestor writes, apart from the observation about the endgame being unsuitable for amateurs. I was also in the 2000-2200 Elo range when I studied the opening, but unlike nestor, I did end up playing it for a couple of seasons. I had a good record in the Berlin endgame itself, only losing once, and that was against a titled player who probably would have beaten me whatever I played. The Berlin endgame is much richer and more interesting than its reputation suggests. Black has various resources, and although the opening might usually lead to a draw at elite level, there are plenty of imbalances in the position, and certainly enough for Black to have decent prospects at lower levels of outplaying his opponent if he has a better understanding of what's going on.

nestor wrote on 05/12/20 at 19:20:13:
but then how often are you likely to see 4. OO Nxe4 5. Re1? This just seems prospectless for Black

This was precisely the problem. I ran into this enough times to put me off the Berlin altogether.

nestor wrote on 05/12/20 at 19:20:13:
The old Quality Chess book by John Cox still has by far and away the best investigation of the underlying principles of the Berlin endgame. I'm not at all sorry I spent some time with this book, even though I decided not to take up the defence.

I'd wholeheartedly endorse this observation: John Cox's book is superbly written and immensely readable. If you want to learn how to play the Berlin endgame, it's unsurpassed and indispensable.

  
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #40 - 05/12/20 at 19:20:13
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I seriously considered taking up the Berlin a while ago (and my playing strength is similar to yours). I decided against it. For one thing, the endgame is very difficult; a world class player once told me that it is just not suitable for amateurs, and Kramnik said much the same thing in an interview. Despite this advice I am sure you (or I) could learn to play it well enough for practical purposes, but then how often are you likely to see 4. OO Nxe4 5. Re1? This just seems prospectless for Black, and I haven't seen anything in a book to change my mind.

Having said all this, The Berlin Defence by Lysyj and Ovetchkin (Chess Stars, 2012) and The Berlin Defence Unraveled by Bernal (New in Chess, 2017) are both very good. Lysyj and Ovetchkin are a bit more academic; they cover only 9...Ke8 in the main endgame. Bernal is more conversational, and he covers different approaches to the endgame. The old Quality Chess book by John Cox still has by far and away the best investigation of the underlying principles of the Berlin endgame. I'm not at all sorry I spent some time with this book, even though I decided not to take up the defence.
  
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #39 - 05/12/20 at 15:07:46
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Lauri Torni wrote on 05/12/20 at 07:17:15:
2) Is the Berlin endgame suitable for an amateur having an  ELO-rating of say 2000-2200?

Yes the Berlin is fine. For some it might be perfect.

But your current Elo is only half the context. The other part is, where do you see yourself in five years?
  • 2200 : A semi-respectable sideline will give just as good results with a fraction of the effort. There are a lot to choose from. Many, many blacks have blazed those trails in bygone days.
  • 2300 : Similar, but occasionally struggling against titled players.
  • 2400 : You will need to get serious and learn a real main line -- in which case, you might as well start now.

RE "More comfortable for white". The Ruy Lopez is like that. It's a good opening, just like the Queen's Gambit. The important thing is to make sure your weaker whites can't play on autopilot while risking nothing. (Like in the Chigorin, where white can biff around for a long time with Nb1-d2-f1-g3, etc., without actually understanding anything.) If you go for a sideline, there is a lot of upside. Supposing your opponent knows the theory and/or plays very well, the end result should be ... "more comfortable for white".
  
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Lauri Torni
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #38 - 05/12/20 at 07:25:11
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duplicate
  

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Lauri Torni
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #37 - 05/12/20 at 07:17:15
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Having played the french whole of my "career" I consider adding 1.-e5 to my repertoire. I have played it in blitz last 1.5 years and actually feel more relaxed than in the french.

I still, however, haven't been totally happy with the main lines following 3.Bb5 a6. Marshall is not an option and other main lines are more comfortable for white.

Two questions

1) What is THE book to learn the Berlin Wall?

2) Is the Berlin endgame suitable for an amateur having an  ELO-rating of say 2000-2200? To my eye, for patzers like me, the position is clearly easier to play as white. Obviously, when your technique is good enough, black has his pluses.
  

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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #36 - 05/11/20 at 21:11:48
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halbstark...thanks for all the effort you have put into your response. It is very insightful and helpful.
  
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #35 - 05/11/20 at 19:48:26
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I just got the book and I have to say, that I am very disappointed.
Let´s start with the positive things: The author analyses not only the Berlin Endgame, but also lines like the 4.d3-variation or the 4-knights. Nothing to take for granted in books about the Berlin Wall.
But I have a lot of problems with the book.
1.) The biggest drawback is, that most moves and lines are given without any explanation! His analysis might be objectively fine for all I know - I haven´t checked it yet-, but all I see is a bunch of engine lines. I thought this kind of book disappeared since the early 2000´s, when authors recognized, that their readers are more interested in plans and ideas. This leads to my second point:
2.)Nowhere in the book I find any explanation, what black is aiming at in certain structures. I mean, for example the Berlin Endgame is pretty much defined by its pawn structure, so IMHO you should definetly include model games, what kind of transitions you should avoid at all costs with black and in which positions, you might even think about playing for the win.  Such a part is completely missing. Even worse: Sometimes he writes stuff like: "The White plan in this position is easier to formulate than blacks" and then he stops and doesn´t even explain, what the White plan is. It feels quite bizarre.
3.) The (engine) lines are chosen very selective. Quite often in the book he just starts a line (even in absolutely unforcing positions) on move 15,ends it 7 moves (14 half-moves) later and gives it an evaluation, without looking at other alternatives within this line (and obviously without any explanation, why this certain line should be considered to be particularly important. To my eyes the lines given look very random.
4.) The diagrams are annoyingly small
5.) Sometimes he writes stuff like: "And here we reached a position, where the players played an instructive game" and not only does he not explain, what it is, that makes the game instructive. He doesn´t even give the following moves, so the reader has to search for the game himself in a database, if he wants to see the follow up.
6.) On the last page he cites a hundred games to study, to learn more about the Berlin Endgame. That is something I find absolutely ridiculous. If you give so many games, you should prioritize them! Or divide them into different themes. (It would not be that hard. Just give the headline: "Here are some games, where White was successful on the kingside" and then put the fitting games below that and categorize the others games in similar fashion.) It is as if the author wants to say: lol, I forgot to teach you anything substantial for your understanding, so get yourself another source and learn it there, lol.
And to make it clear: He doesn´t give 100 games with moves. He just writes the games´meta data:
"Volokitin - Eljanov, Foros 2008
Gashimov Aronian - Sochi 2008
...."

I would definetly not recommend this book, if you want to learn this opening.

« Last Edit: 05/11/20 at 22:04:00 by halbstark »  
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #34 - 04/01/20 at 01:20:25
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belgian wrote on 03/31/20 at 01:10:42:
It’s 9. Nc3 a5!?.


Does the author make a good case for this variation?....a quick look at the databases suggests it has not been played a lot recently..(fashion or in trouble).
  
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #33 - 03/31/20 at 01:10:42
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mn wrote on 03/03/20 at 06:46:40:
Do we know what 9th move system is recommended in the ending?


It’s 9. Nc3 a5!?.
  
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #32 - 03/03/20 at 06:46:40
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Do we know what 9th move system is recommended in the ending?
  
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #31 - 11/21/19 at 06:40:44
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On a side note, I don't know what the latest greatest thinking on 7. a4 d6 is, but it will always remind me of Halprin-Pillsbury (described as "Prepared Analysis vs. Genius!" in The Golden Treasury of Chess, a book I acquired as a child).
  
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #30 - 11/21/19 at 04:46:06
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I'd be very interested in the Berlin if I was guaranteed to play the Ending;
But I'm not that sold on 5.Re1, nor on 5..d4 Nd6 6.de5: Nb5: 7.a4 ever being any fun.

..Now that I say this, how playable is 7.a4 d6? That looks perfectly valid at a cursory glance, without allowing White to force a draw in 10 moves?

P.S. Is there a particular reason this thread didn't land in the Berlin subforum?
  
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #29 - 11/21/19 at 00:41:25
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Stigma wrote on 11/20/19 at 23:03:10:
I'm sorry if I insulted you. That wasn't my intention.

I was just genuinely unsure whether there was some appreciation for the DDR in the post as well, with the patriotic song and all, in addition to the obvious criticism contained in the cartoon.

I hope it's OK to ask when I'm unsure how to interpret a post.


No, that is fine, but I was referring to your reply to MNb in that post, not you directly.

Personally, I do think that some Eastern bloc countries did some good in the elimination of poverty and (at least attempting to) eliminate social and economic class. Like motörhead said, DDR always had a better social safety net for the lower-income compared to for example, a very rich country like USA. So there is admiration in DDR for that. Definitely not for its lunatic authoritarianism. Remember that Trotsky was Stalin's and Stalinism's arch-enemy.

And anyway, DDR's anthem is very nice. It is the type of song that I would listen to a few times before a tournament game.

I am thinking of taking up the Berlin Wall as a reply to 1. e4 as well, so there is that too. Studying Berlin theory to the tune of Aufenstanden aus Ruinen for this winter sounds quite pleasant.
  
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #28 - 11/20/19 at 23:37:59
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It's useless to discuss politics here. It should happen in forums where this is a purpose or part of the culture. This culture lacks here, so I'd like the moderator to remove the anti-communist posts and the post about the GDR.

Anyway, a joke is the only good continuation. Why do the chinese always smile? They still have their wall.  Cheesy
  

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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #27 - 11/20/19 at 23:03:10
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 11/20/19 at 19:36:39:
I support neither Brezhnev nor Hönecker. Neither of them should have been the one to lead their respective countries. But then again, neither should have Stalin.

Stigma wrote on 11/20/19 at 14:45:40:
Yes, the message in the picture was negative, obviously. The song and video in the Youtube link and the word "commemorate", on the other hand, were positive (or, alternatively, ironic).

So all I said was it could be that Leon_Trotsky meant exactly what he said. I half expected him to clear that up himself. I was open to both possibilties, and that is somehow closed-minded?

I think you're just being needlessly hostile here.


It was my attempt at irony. But apparently my non=literal messages always seem to get misconstrued.

In any case, people hurl insults at me on a daily basis. Receiving a few more here is not really that much for me.

I'm sorry if I insulted you. That wasn't my intention.

I was just genuinely unsure whether there was some appreciation for the DDR in the post as well, with the patriotic song and all, in addition to the obvious criticism contained in the cartoon.

I hope it's OK to ask when I'm unsure how to interpret a post.
  

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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #26 - 11/20/19 at 22:07:44
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I came here for a discussion on a chess book...
  
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #25 - 11/20/19 at 20:48:16
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MNb wrote on 11/20/19 at 19:48:14:
Nor Trotsky.


Rubbish. There would have been no Berlin Wall under Trotsky. West Germany would have been communist as well.

This all assuming that the Second World War had started as it did. If Trotsky had come to power in 1924, I am sure that Germany would have become communist, stopping Hitler from gaining popularity and being elected in the first place.

MNb wrote on 11/20/19 at 19:48:14:
Not by me, but as a Dutchman I understand German as well as English. Moreover I had seen the cartoon and the text before.


My point was that the Berlin Wall as an opening is extremely popular only after the actual Berlin Wall fell.

MNb wrote on 11/20/19 at 19:48:14:
But the USA has a political system that makes it possible, even if it's difficult, to correct such injustices, while the DDR had not. Nor had the Soviet-Union when Trotsky still held a powerful position. Trotsky was as cruel a suppressor as Stalin, as my political soulmates in Russia 1919-1922 learned the hard way. Your nick doesn't speak for you, no matter how much I like your comments on chess.


I have lived in USA for many years. The system is an oligarchy, More like a libertarian capitalist's dream. The working man's nightmare.

And after hundreds of years there is still no universal healthcare. Tens of millions of Americans perished due to being unable to afford healthcare. The only way is a highly reformer-like president. When Bernie Sanders defeats Trump next year and becomes president it can happen. I do not see why if someone less rigid like Hönecker were in power, DDR could reform as well.

The American comedian George Carlin said, "It is called the American dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it."
  
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #24 - 11/20/19 at 20:06:52
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MNb wrote on 11/20/19 at 19:48:14:
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 11/20/19 at 19:36:39:
I support neither Brezhnev nor Hönecker. Neither of them should have been the one to lead their respective countries. But then again, neither should have Stalin..

Nor Trotsky.


We can forward this to a few more countries, even actual ones.
What puzzles more than a bit is the fact, that the fall of the so called communists later lead to the rise of rigth-wing-figures that can well be called fascists.
And more than ever it becomes clear that politics is the mere art of lying. Take for example the former leftwing-president Obama who is now a clear conservative. No "left" experiments. Change? Well, yes. But. Not now.
Or take the actual president Trump. Who is nothing but a constant and consequent lier.
Should such characters lead contries? Taking the problems ahead serious the answer should be clear. But Democracy has given it (that's the difference to the USSR, but it makes it no better).
Okay, Trump didn't even achieve the majority at all. But that's a system's fault. And he will try to hit the gap again.
  

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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #23 - 11/20/19 at 19:48:14
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 11/20/19 at 19:36:39:
I support neither Brezhnev nor Hönecker. Neither of them should have been the one to lead their respective countries. But then again, neither should have Stalin..

Nor Trotsky.


Leon_Trotsky wrote on 11/20/19 at 19:36:39:
It was my attempt at irony. But apparently my non=literal messages always seem to get misconstrued.

Not by me, but as a Dutchman I understand German as well as English. Moreover I had seen the cartoon and the text before.

Leon_Trotsky wrote on 11/20/19 at 19:42:09:
Almost 30 million people have no healthcare in USA, and over a third of all Americans live paycheque to paycheque. Even in the worst moments of DDR this would not have happened.

But the USA has a political system that makes it possible, even if it's difficult, to correct such injustices, while the DDR had not. Nor had the Soviet-Union when Trotsky still held a powerful position. Trotsky was as cruel a suppressor as Stalin, as my political soulmates in Russia 1919-1922 learned the hard way. Your nick doesn't speak for you, no matter how much I like your comments on chess.
  

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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #22 - 11/20/19 at 19:42:09
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motörhead wrote on 11/20/19 at 18:20:17:
Just look at the USA a country deeply devided, with lots of people suffering in ways (in concern to Living Standards) worse then in the former GDR in the early eighties (that is a matter of statistics). Just compare the care factor.


Almost 30 million people have no healthcare in USA, and over a third of all Americans live paycheque to paycheque. Even in the worst moments of DDR this would not have happened.
  
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #21 - 11/20/19 at 19:36:39
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I support neither Brezhnev nor Hönecker. Neither of them should have been the one to lead their respective countries. But then again, neither should have Stalin.

Stigma wrote on 11/20/19 at 14:45:40:
Yes, the message in the picture was negative, obviously. The song and video in the Youtube link and the word "commemorate", on the other hand, were positive (or, alternatively, ironic).

So all I said was it could be that Leon_Trotsky meant exactly what he said. I half expected him to clear that up himself. I was open to both possibilties, and that is somehow closed-minded?

I think you're just being needlessly hostile here.


It was my attempt at irony. But apparently my non=literal messages always seem to get misconstrued.

In any case, people hurl insults at me on a daily basis. Receiving a few more here is not really that much for me.
  
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #20 - 11/20/19 at 18:20:17
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Stigma wrote on 11/20/19 at 17:22:02:
MNb wrote on 11/20/19 at 16:19:06:
Stigma wrote on 11/20/19 at 14:45:40:
I think you're just being needlessly hostile here.

I don't think it needless as long as you think it possible that someone who calls himself Trotsky supports Brezhnev and Honegger; that's a strong sign of a closed mind.

This mind has forgotten most of what it once knew about the political differences between the central historical figures within Communism. But that doesn't make it "closed".

I only want to add that it's possible to take a wide variety of attitudes to the DDR. It must be possible to commemorate some aspects of it while not necessarily supporting Brezhnev and Honegger?

I think I understand what you're thinking about the irony point, but honestly I was just trying to say he clearly appears to be somewhere on the far left politically, and for all I know he's honest about that. The blog name is one sign.


Let's take it as it is. The fall of the Berlin Walls brought "freedom" to the eastern hemisphere. But that "freedom" to many became an unreachable aspect. As in the "winner's" (i.e. capitalism) world you need money to evolve freedom.
So many (by far not everybody) had no gain but felt a loss of some sort of security and order.
Is that, was followed after the fall of the wall a better world?
I would say: it is another world with comparable problems.
Just look at the USA a country deeply devided, with lots of people suffering in ways (in concern to Living Standards) worse then in the former GDR in the early eighties (that is a matter of statistics). Just compare the care factor.
So it ist not allone the question whether the earlier times were "better".
To me the main question is, whether we can cope with the rising problems in the world.
The signs are not to good.
And the main problem is the same that allready stood at the craddle of communism: Inequality. 
By the way: The GDR-guy had the name Honecker, not Honegger.
  

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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #19 - 11/20/19 at 17:22:02
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MNb wrote on 11/20/19 at 16:19:06:
Stigma wrote on 11/20/19 at 14:45:40:
I think you're just being needlessly hostile here.

I don't think it needless as long as you think it possible that someone who calls himself Trotsky supports Brezhnev and Honegger; that's a strong sign of a closed mind.

This mind has forgotten most of what it once knew about the political differences between the central historical figures within Communism. But that doesn't make it "closed".

I only want to add that it's possible to take a wide variety of attitudes to the DDR. It must be possible to commemorate some aspects of it while not necessarily supporting Brezhnev and Honegger?

I think I understand what you're thinking about the irony point, but honestly I was just trying to say he clearly appears to be somewhere on the far left politically, and for all I know he's honest about that. The blog name is one sign.
  

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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #18 - 11/20/19 at 16:19:06
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Stigma wrote on 11/20/19 at 14:45:40:
I think you're just being needlessly hostile here.

I don't think it needless as long as you think it possible that someone who calls himself Trotsky supports Brezhnev and Honegger; that's a strong sign of a closed mind. So is this:

Stigma wrote on 11/20/19 at 11:12:42:
unless you think it's all a display of irony, but that's not my impression).



This increased the hostility, but it has another cause that has nothing to do with this topic. That's my last word.
  

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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #17 - 11/20/19 at 14:45:40
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MNb wrote on 11/20/19 at 13:37:36:
Stigma wrote on 11/20/19 at 11:12:42:
Why is that?

I answered that question already in my previous comment, in the part you carefully omitted when you quoted me. If you happen to think that the subtitle I translated is an expression of DDR-nostalgia I advise you to work on your open mind indeed. Let me help you on your way: "deathly love" has a negative meaning and hence doesn't exactly express support for Brezhnev and Honegger.

Yes, the message in the picture was negative, obviously. The song and video in the Youtube link and the word "commemorate", on the other hand, were positive (or, alternatively, ironic).

So all I said was it could be that Leon_Trotsky meant exactly what he said. I half expected him to clear that up himself. I was open to both possibilties, and that is somehow closed-minded?

I think you're just being needlessly hostile here.
  

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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #16 - 11/20/19 at 13:37:36
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Stigma wrote on 11/20/19 at 11:12:42:
Why is that?

I answered that question already in my previous comment, in the part you carefully omitted when you quoted me. If you happen to think that the subtitle I translated is an expression of DDR-nostalgia I advise you to work on your open mind indeed. Let me help you on your way: "deathly love" has a negative meaning and hence doesn't exactly express support for Brezhnev and Honegger.
  

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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #15 - 11/20/19 at 11:12:42
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MNb wrote on 11/20/19 at 10:01:31:
Stigma wrote on 11/20/19 at 05:32:45:
It could be that Leon_Trotsky really does find the DDR worth commemorating.

This only makes sense if you lack the open mind you try to promote yourself.

Why is that? Nostalgia for various aspects of life and culture in the DDR still exists, with a variety of motivations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostalgie
And Leon_Trotsky doesn't exactly hide his political leanings (unless you think it's all a display of irony, but that's not my impression).
  

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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #14 - 11/20/19 at 10:01:31
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Glenn Snow wrote on 11/20/19 at 04:09:09:
Could the previous post be less appropriate?

No. Check the subtitle.

"Mein Gott,hilf mir diese tödliche Liebe zu überleben."

"Dear God, help me to survive this deadly love."

Of course some here can't stand this kind of sarcasm, but I think it very appropriate to commemorate that many DDR-citizens did survive that deadly love.


Stigma wrote on 11/20/19 at 05:32:45:
It could be that Leon_Trotsky really does find the DDR worth commemorating.

This only makes sense if you lack the open mind you try to promote yourself.
  

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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #13 - 11/20/19 at 09:12:12
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Berlin I'd imagine. The Marshall is a pain too of course, but more play.

If the Berlin ending is a dead end (I think established on some level by now), you've got either 4 d3 or 5 Re1 anyway so hardly losing much playing the Italian instead.
  
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #12 - 11/20/19 at 07:21:17
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 11/20/19 at 07:09:17:
Stigma wrote on 11/20/19 at 07:02:16:
Actually many people don't "find it very good that it is Black's best defence to 1. e4", if indeed it is, since the Berlin's popularity makes playing 1.e4 as White more boring than it used to be.


I think that if White gets that irritated by the Berlin, that definitely makes a case for calling the Berlin the best, or if not then one of the best, defences for Black.

I'm not too irritated, as I play 1.e4 only rarely anyway. But if I wanted to go back to it permanently, ensuring I had lines I liked against 1.e4 e5 would be first on the agenda.

The Italian has rivaled the Ruy Lopez in popularity on top level for a few years now. I don't know exactly which Ruy lines make them look for alternatives as White, but the Berlin and the Marshall Gambit are obvious suspects.
  

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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #11 - 11/20/19 at 07:09:17
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Stigma wrote on 11/20/19 at 07:02:16:
Actually many people don't "find it very good that it is Black's best defence to 1. e4", if indeed it is, since the Berlin's popularity makes playing 1.e4 as White more boring than it used to be.


I think that if White gets that irritated by the Berlin, that definitely makes a case for calling the Berlin the best, or if not then one of the best, defences for Black.
  
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #10 - 11/20/19 at 07:02:16
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 11/20/19 at 06:27:28:
But I find the premise of the opening Berlin Wall ironic. If so many people wanted the Berlin Wall to fall in November 1989, they find it very good that it is Black's best defence to 1. e4 because in chess the Berlin Wall shall never fall (?).

Also ironic that the Berlin Wall opening was never super popular in pre-1989 tournament chess.


3...Nf6 was known as the Berlin defence for a century or more before the Berlin Wall was built. It has something to do with these old masters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Pleiades. According to my database, three of the first four recorded games with 3...Nf6 were played in Berlin between 1836 and 1847.

The "Wall" nickname for the defence must have been added later, after people realized how difficult it could be to break down. Maybe even as recently as Kramnik's successful usage of it in the 2000 match.

Actually many people don't "find it very good that it is Black's best defence to 1. e4", if indeed it is, since the Berlin's popularity makes playing 1.e4 as White more boring than it used to be. Though the Petroff's ebbs and flows in popularity also play a role here.
  

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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #9 - 11/20/19 at 06:27:28
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One of my grandfathers was born in China in the 1890s. During the Japanese occupation he went in exile to the West. He was a very strict person. But in the 1970s, he decided to return permanently to China, which had already become communist. He probably considered DDR not strict enough.

But I find the premise of the opening Berlin Wall ironic. If so many people wanted the Berlin Wall to fall in November 1989, they find it very good that it is Black's best defence to 1. e4 because in chess the Berlin Wall shall never fall (?).

Also ironic that the Berlin Wall opening was never super popular in pre-1989 tournament chess.

  
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #8 - 11/20/19 at 05:32:45
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Glenn Snow wrote on 11/20/19 at 04:09:09:
Could the previous post be less appropriate?

It could be that Leon_Trotsky really does find the DDR worth commemorating. Though most people today don't.

Trying to just listen with an open mind and not think of the Communist and Cold War history, I actually found the music and lyrics of Auferstanden aus Ruinen a bit inspiring (though the line "Schlagen wir des Volkes Feind" brought me right back to the Stasi and the oppressive regime).

I can't recall hearing this anthem before, so thanks for that.
  

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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #7 - 11/20/19 at 04:09:09
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Could the previous post be less appropriate?
  
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #6 - 11/19/19 at 19:58:52
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To commemorate DDR:

https://youtu.be/dIh1eOw0zV8



I am also confused why the Berlin endgame has fewer pages than other chapters.

  
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #5 - 11/19/19 at 18:59:33
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The book has 216 pages but the appendix with 100 games to understand the Berlin Endgame only starts on page 211 ?! (316 pages in total would make sense)

According to Niggemann the book is available in the next few days! (nov 21th?!)

tracke 🙂

@motörhead: Maybe the real problem in german politics is the pseudo-educated high-snobiety in the west which overrates idealism and existentialism?! Btw I‘m a wessi.
  
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #4 - 11/16/19 at 13:27:22
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Quote:
An incident that is still fresh in my mind happened in the World U-16 Championship in 2009, when I was paired against an opponent who was 200 points lower rated than me. I was scared to play the Berlin as I thought he might hold me to a draw, but my coach, GM R.B.Ramesh, told me to go and play it confidently, and the result was a 31-move victory!


Here is the game. I can't do an attachment from my phone.

[Event "World Youth ch u16"]
[Site "Antalya TUR"]
[Date "2009.11.16"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Szalay, Karoly"]
[Black "Priyadharshan, K."]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C67"]
[WhiteElo "2128"]
[BlackElo "2343"]
[PlyCount "62"]
[EventDate "2009.11.12"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. d4 Nd6 6. Bxc6 dxc6 7. dxe5 Nf5
8. Qxd8+ Kxd8 9. Nc3 Ne7 10. Bg5 h6 11. Bh4 Ke8 12. Rad1 Bg4 13. h3 Bxf3 14.
gxf3 Nf5 15. Bg3 Ke7 16. Rd3 Ke6 17. Rfd1 Be7 18. Ne2 g5 19. f4 Rad8 20. Kg2
Rd5 21. Kf3 Rhd8 22. Ke4 Bc5 23. fxg5 Nxg3+ 24. Nxg3 hxg5 25. f4 gxf4 26. Nf1
Rxe5+ 27. Kxf4 Bd6 28. Kf3 Rh8 29. Kg2 Re2+ 30. Kg1 Rg8+ 31. Kh1 Rgg2
0-1
  
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #3 - 11/16/19 at 10:22:55
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I am curious whether he can instill some life into the 5.Re1 line.
  
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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #2 - 11/16/19 at 09:08:08
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Ha,
we in Germany just had the jubilee of 30 years of the fall of the Berlin Wall on nov., 9th. And now I read, it will be modernized  Huh Cheesy Grin

Is somehow in the line with political feelings. The east of Germany has some tendencies towards extreme right wingers as the elections show.

Okay, that's only politics...

Let's focus on the really important items - let's focus on chess Cool
  

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Re: Modernised Berlin Wall
Reply #1 - 11/15/19 at 12:37:06
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Seems to be rather strangely proportioned - the 4 Knights Spanish, which *can* be dealt with via "Go ..Bd6 and then play chess", has over 40 pages to its name, while the Berlin Ending, one of the theory-densest and most complicated positions in modern chess (causing Cox to write an entire book on it; with 250 pages of explanation), somehow is covered in 35.

Perhaps the 100 games at the end are commentated & majorly cover the endgame, so the author felt like theory doesn't need to be delved into that deep? Either way, curious to me.
« Last Edit: 11/15/19 at 16:10:49 by IsaVulpes »  
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Modernised Berlin Wall
11/15/19 at 08:16:42
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From Thinkers Publishing:

https://www.debestezet.nl/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=4331

Not shown on Thinkers Publishing own website yet. But interesting book looks like. Though I have never heard of this author before.
  
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