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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Alapin Sicilian e6 vs d6 (Read 730 times)
IsaVulpes
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Re: Alapin Sicilian e6 vs d6
Reply #10 - 11/30/19 at 17:34:35
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mañico_feroz wrote on 11/29/19 at 08:15:04:
1. e4 c5 2. c3 e6 3. d4 d5 4. exd5 exd5 5. Nf3 (and now a6 or Nc6 normally).

You have to be willing to play this structure, which is very easy to play for white. So, not a good try for a win.

I have some very old notes on this,

Quote:
Delayed Alapin:
- 2. Nf3 e6 3. c3 d5 4. exd5 exd5 5. d4 Nc6 6. Bb5 Bd6 7. dxc5 Bxc5 8. O-O Nf6!?
-- 9.Nd4 00! // Plan: 10.Nc6: bc6: 11.Bc6: Ng4!!, Queen to b6/d6/h4 and mate
-- 9.Bg5 00 10.Bf6: Qf6: // Plan: Natural Development, Attack


Not 100% sure of how well this holds up theoretically nowadays, but I think in all of these lines Black has excellent chances of playing for a win at least in a practical game.
  
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mañico_feroz
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Re: Alapin Sicilian e6 vs d6
Reply #9 - 11/29/19 at 08:15:04
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In case of e6 there are, basically, two alternatives:
- Nf6, transpoing with e5 Nd5 ... d6 and so on or playing something else without d6
- d5, playing in a french style.

Regarding the later, If you play e6 with the french idea in mind,there is always this annoying isolated pawn possibility

1. e4 c5 2. c3 e6 3. d4 d5 4. exd5 exd5 5. Nf3 (and now a6 or Nc6 normally).

You have to be willing to play this structure, which is very easy to play for white. So, not a good try for a win.

There are alternatives. Instead d5, playing with b5-d6-Nf6 .... But, again, white has a good control of the center and a more confortable position.

Appart from this you have the chance of ending in a french advance, which you need to prepare. Lines with a3 or the milner-barry gambit need its previous work. Others are more intuitive ... but not easy at all.

  
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Re: Alapin Sicilian e6 vs d6
Reply #8 - 11/24/19 at 01:01:07
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kevinfat wrote on 11/16/19 at 23:55:44:
1.e4 c5 2.c3 Nf6 3.e5 Nd5 4.d4 cxd4 5.cxd4

It seems to me that there are at least three ways to handle this position as black. I'm not entirely sure of this but it seems like there are the option

5..d6
5..e6

and then later on the question of whether to keep the knight on d5 and put both pawns on d6 and e6 or instead move the knight to b6 in response to a Bc4.

I am sort of bewildered by the options of when to put both pawns on e6 and d6 or just one of them and when to move the knight to b6. I presume part of this is an issue of move order subtleties. Where would one go to learn about this?


Whether to choose 5..e6 or 5..d6 is a matter of taste and repertoire considerations.

In the main lines of the 5..e6 system, you want to play ..d6 to put pressure on the White e5-pawn.  MNb gives a good overview in his post.

After White plays Bc4, whether to leave the Knight on d5 or play ..Nb6 is again mostly a matter of taste.  I personally prefer to leave the Knight on d5 and let White play Bxd5 if he wants.




  
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Re: Alapin Sicilian e6 vs d6
Reply #7 - 11/22/19 at 00:40:02
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Quote:
What's more, the Chase Variation 1.e4 Nf6 3.e5 Nd5 3.c4 Nb6 4.c5 Nd5 might transpose.


The Chase Variation can be a useful practical choice. The point being that if you face the Alekhine very infrequently, transposing to something you get more often has its subjective points. It's all relative, but from a 2000ish perspective, the lower rated player will not handle Alapin positions well.

That makes it a good choice for 2000 v 1700 but a bad choice for 2000 v 2300.
  
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MNb
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Re: Alapin Sicilian e6 vs d6
Reply #6 - 11/18/19 at 08:02:42
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MNb wrote on 11/17/19 at 12:42:25:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c3 Nf6 4.e5 Nd5 5.d4 cxd4 5.cxd4 d6 smoothly transposes to the lines I presented. To me they look like a pretty good version for Black of the Alekhine. 


Straggler wrote on 11/17/19 at 16:36:08:
Doesn't Black usually develop the c8 bishop before playing ...e6 in the Alekhine?

Usually yes. This bishop still looks good on c6, b7 or even a6 to exchange it for White's most dangerous light piece. What's more, the Chase Variation 1.e4 Nf6 3.e5 Nd5 3.c4 Nb6 4.c5 Nd5 might transpose.


Stigma wrote on 11/18/19 at 07:13:32:
With that in mind, 5...d6 makes more sense than 5...e6.

Thiat very useful principle is why I think the early ...Nc6 inaccurate. Here it doesn't really apply. After 1.e4 c5 2.c3 Nf6 3.e5 Nd5 4.d4 cxd4 5.cxd4 White will play 6.Nf3 anyway.
  

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Re: Alapin Sicilian e6 vs d6
Reply #5 - 11/18/19 at 07:13:32
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I'm no Alapin expert, but it makes sense for Black to keep as many good setups as possible on the table for as long as he can, to keep White guessing.

With that in mind, 5...d6 makes more sense than 5...e6. The only setup Black "loses" by playing 5...d6 is the one with an early ...e6 and ...b6, and most books consider that dubious anyway (though don't ask me if that conclusion still holds up).

One big reason Black players still regularly reach the position after 5...e6 is ...e6 was actually played earlier - via the move order 2.Nf3 e6 3.c3 - which as I've just argued limits Black's options. The ones he has left are still supposed to be good enough objectively, of course.
  

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Re: Alapin Sicilian e6 vs d6
Reply #4 - 11/18/19 at 04:35:28
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kevinfat wrote on 11/16/19 at 23:55:44:
1.e4 c5 2.c3 Nf6 3.e5 Nd5 4.d4 cxd4 5.cxd4

It seems to me that there are at least three ways to handle this position as black. ... Where would one go to learn about this?

That's a good question. Most books these days are repertoire books, either for white or for black, but your question is more about pluses and minuses for both players. Two repertoire books I have seen that do not answer your question are Gallagher (2003) Beating the Anti-Sicilians and Collins (2004) An Attacking Repertoire for White.

I have some half-memory of an annotated game by Nunn that explains this in depth. Maybe it was in Nunn/Griffiths (1987) Secrets of Grandmaster Play.
  
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Re: Alapin Sicilian e6 vs d6
Reply #3 - 11/17/19 at 16:36:08
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MNb wrote on 11/17/19 at 12:42:25:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c3 Nf6 4.e5 Nd5 5.d4 cxd4 5.cxd4 d6 smoothly transposes to the lines I presented. To me they look like a pretty good version for Black of the Alekhine. 

Doesn't Black usually develop the c8 bishop before playing ...e6 in the Alekhine?
  
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Re: Alapin Sicilian e6 vs d6
Reply #2 - 11/17/19 at 12:42:25
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kevinfat wrote on 11/16/19 at 23:55:44:
I am sort of bewildered by the options of when to put both pawns on e6 and d6 or just one of them and when to move the knight to b6. I presume part of this is an issue of move order subtleties. Where would one go to learn about this?

To this question I don't have an answer, but I did a database research myself a while ago. My own answer is the first.

1.e4 c5 2.c3 Nf6 3.e5 Nd5 4.d4 cxd4 5.cxd4 d6 6.Nf3 e6

a) 7.a3 Bd7 8.Bd3 Bc6 9.O-O Nd7.
b) 7.Nc3 Nxc3 8.bxc3 Qc7.
c) 7.Bc4 Be7 8.O-O O-O point 9.Nc3 Nxc3 10.bxc3 Qc7.

Apparently Black often has better than ....Nb6 and ....Nc6. So I suspect that offering a transposition with 2.Nc3 and 3.c3 would be more precise. That's good news for Dragoneers and Najdorf fans as 2...d6 prevents this transposition.

Straggler wrote on 11/17/19 at 10:26:59:
for me, 3.c3 is a good reason not to play 2...e6.

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c3 Nf6 4.e5 Nd5 5.d4 cxd4 5.cxd4 d6 smoothly transposes to the lines I presented. To me they look like a pretty good version for Black of the Alekhine.
  

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Re: Alapin Sicilian e6 vs d6
Reply #1 - 11/17/19 at 10:26:59
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I have trouble with this too, so my advice won't be much use to you. What I can say is that the positions with ...e6 seem quite scary to me, and this impression is not dispelled by examination of Kotronias' recommended lines. Indeed I would play c3 myself if everyone played this way as Black. Kotronias points out that it is playable after 2.Nf3 e6 3.c3; but, for me, 3.c3 is a good reason not to play 2...e6. I'd rather face the Rossolimo.
  
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Alapin Sicilian e6 vs d6
11/16/19 at 23:55:44
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1.e4 c5 2.c3 Nf6 3.e5 Nd5 4.d4 cxd4 5.cxd4

It seems to me that there are at least three ways to handle this position as black. I'm not entirely sure of this but it seems like there are the option

5..d6
5..e6

and then later on the question of whether to keep the knight on d5 and put both pawns on d6 and e6 or instead move the knight to b6 in response to a Bc4.

I am sort of bewildered by the options of when to put both pawns on e6 and d6 or just one of them and when to move the knight to b6. I presume part of this is an issue of move order subtleties. Where would one go to learn about this?
  
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