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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Bobby Fischer - The Final Years (Read 9717 times)
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Re: Bobby Fischer - The Final Years
Reply #24 - 03/31/20 at 00:25:12
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cathexis wrote on 03/21/20 at 17:09:27:
The larger question here, and one still unanswered is:

"What do we do about the great deeds of terrible people?"

Bobby is small potatoes compared to a Churchill riding down the "fuzzie wuzzies" at Omdurman while later standing alone againest Hitler; our founding fathers who built the greatest nation perhaps ever, some of that work supported on the backs of their black slaves; the building of our great nation, partially on the genocide of the original inhabitants, etc. And they all have their die hard supporters who would see only their greatness and ignore or excuse their reprehensible choices. But in the world of chess it is Bobby Fisher who best could have the above question leveled at him. His remarks(available still) on Philippine radio are nothing but inexcusable, although some would anyway. "I just care about his games."

I'm not going to be drawn in to attacking or defending him; his record speaks for itself. The purpose of this post is to suggest that the question: "What do we do about the great deeds of terrible men?" is the real reason for controversy about Fisher. It is a question we as a society have yet to answer. It stands behind movements like #metoo and #blacklivesmatter even if those movements have their problems as well. Quibbling over how terrible or how great misses the point. FWIW, I see Bobby as ultimately a pathetic and lonely person, neither a hero nor a villain.


Bobby Fischer had very obvious mental problems that got worse as he grew older. That doesn't have anything to do with geopolitical history and the very calculated decisions of mentally stable political leaders and their advisors.

Also, I physically cringed that you believe movements like metoo and BLM are worthy goals of a modern society. Why even bring that offtopic in a chess forum, there is all of twitter and reddit out there for that stuff.
  
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Re: Bobby Fischer - The Final Years
Reply #23 - 03/27/20 at 00:22:14
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/10/20 at 02:54:34:
Fischer made a similarly ludicrous claim about the K-K matches all (!) being rigged. Somehow in Fischer's mind all the other world champions were bent, and only Fischer was straight. Yeah, right ...



It is interesting that in regard to the K-K matches, Spassky held a very similar opinion to Fischer. Not agreeing with it, just pointing this out.
  

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Re: Bobby Fischer - The Final Years
Reply #22 - 03/22/20 at 15:27:36
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cathexis wrote on 03/21/20 at 17:09:27:
The larger question here, and one still unanswered is:

"What do we do about the great deeds of terrible people?"

Bobby is small potatoes compared to a Churchill riding down the "fuzzie wuzzies" at Omdurman while later standing alone againest Hitler; our founding fathers who built the greatest nation perhaps ever, some of that work supported on the backs of their black slaves; the building of our great nation, partially on the genocide of the original inhabitants, etc. And they all have their die hard supporters who would see only their greatness and ignore or excuse their reprehensible choices. But in the world of chess it is Bobby Fisher who best could have the above question leveled at him. His remarks(available still) on Philippine radio are nothing but inexcusable, although some would anyway. "I just care about his games."

I'm not going to be drawn in to attacking or defending him; his record speaks for itself. The purpose of this post is to suggest that the question: "What do we do about the great deeds of terrible men?" is the real reason for controversy about Fisher. It is a question we as a society have yet to answer. It stands behind movements like #metoo and #blacklivesmatter even if those movements have their problems as well. Quibbling over how terrible or how great misses the point. FWIW, I see Bobby as ultimately a pathetic and lonely person, neither a hero nor a villain.



#1 Spell his name correctly Fischer. With a c.
#2 If you think #metoo is a good movement, you've lost all credibility.
#3 Same to #2 if you think #blacklivesmatter movement... well don't talk.

While the question you raise is legitimate, his comments are deplorable but nevertheless he was sick in the head at this point just as he was when he died (refusing simple dialysis could have saved his life easily). So yes, it's fine for people to say, "we just enjoy his games." The problem is you can't have lived in his shoes... he was followed by the FBI and CIA from birth... I think most children would become pretty sick if they had to grow up with that level of paranoia. To add to it, by the time he was a real person, he was being actively and ridiculously persecuted... so it would start to make his insanity seem... well justified. The real hard problem is that Fischer MADE modern chess. Before Fischer, there wasn't such a thing as a chess professional. A world champion making money? No. Kasparov, Karpov, Kramnik, Anand, Carlsen... they owe E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G to Fischer changing chess.
  
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Re: Bobby Fischer - The Final Years
Reply #21 - 03/21/20 at 17:09:27
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The larger question here, and one still unanswered is:

"What do we do about the great deeds of terrible people?"

Bobby is small potatoes compared to a Churchill riding down the "fuzzie wuzzies" at Omdurman while later standing alone againest Hitler; our founding fathers who built the greatest nation perhaps ever, some of that work supported on the backs of their black slaves; the building of our great nation, partially on the genocide of the original inhabitants, etc. And they all have their die hard supporters who would see only their greatness and ignore or excuse their reprehensible choices. But in the world of chess it is Bobby Fisher who best could have the above question leveled at him. His remarks(available still) on Philippine radio are nothing but inexcusable, although some would anyway. "I just care about his games."

I'm not going to be drawn in to attacking or defending him; his record speaks for itself. The purpose of this post is to suggest that the question: "What do we do about the great deeds of terrible men?" is the real reason for controversy about Fisher. It is a question we as a society have yet to answer. It stands behind movements like #metoo and #blacklivesmatter even if those movements have their problems as well. Quibbling over how terrible or how great misses the point. FWIW, I see Bobby as ultimately a pathetic and lonely person, neither a hero nor a villain.
  
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Re: Bobby Fischer - The Final Years
Reply #20 - 03/20/20 at 23:39:19
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The Capa theory is beyond ridiculous. Capablanca was a proud and honorable man from a military family who had had a government sinecure as a diplomat since 1913 (after he became glamourous, but well before he became champion). Losing his championship would not have and did not endanger that position. Botvinnik once overheard a conversation between Capablanca and his wife Olga in a taxi in which all three were riding. Capa, smiling to hide his meaning, said to his wife in French, "it's always money with you, isn't it?" --forgetting that Botvinnik might  understand.
« Last Edit: 03/21/20 at 19:26:03 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: Bobby Fischer - The Final Years
Reply #19 - 03/20/20 at 22:44:16
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I thought Olafsson was instrumental in getting Fischer to Iceland in the first place no? Or did Sverrisson help as well? Maybe someone with better knowledge could chime in.
  
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Re: Bobby Fischer - The Final Years
Reply #18 - 03/10/20 at 20:08:45
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grandpatzer wrote on 03/10/20 at 08:18:27:
Well, to be honest there wasn't so much of a living for a chess player at those times, even for a world champion. Capa could have been fed up with the title and choosing the big financial gain instead. Frankly I don't believe that. I cannot figure him playing second-best or third-best moves in the games.

Yes, not much money in it. When I wrote incalculable I didn't mean to suggest the world champion was getting rich. Back then it was more like the difference between peanuts and negative peanuts. It wasn't until Fischer (!) that players started earning more than peanuts. The 1929 games were well fought, it's just that Alekhine was surprisingly good in the endgame.
  
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Re: Bobby Fischer - The Final Years
Reply #17 - 03/10/20 at 08:18:27
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Well, to be honest there wasn't so much of a living for a chess player at those times, even for a world champion. Capa could have been fed up with the title and choosing the big financial gain instead. Frankly I don't believe that. I cannot figure him playing second-best or third-best moves in the games.
  
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Re: Bobby Fischer - The Final Years
Reply #16 - 03/10/20 at 02:54:34
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So according to Fischer the reigning world champion bet against himself and intentionally threw the match! And according to Fischer how much did Capablanca rake in from this scheme? No, don't answer.

Entirely aside from ethics and pride, Capablanca was forfeiting future revenue from matches, appearance fees, exhibitions, book royalties, etc. Everything diminished by virtue of being ex-world champion rather than reigning world champion. For a chessplayer of any era the value of being world champion vs second-best was and is incalculable.

Fischer made a similarly ludicrous claim about the K-K matches all (!) being rigged. Somehow in Fischer's mind all the other world champions were bent, and only Fischer was straight. Yeah, right ...

  
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Re: Bobby Fischer - The Final Years
Reply #15 - 03/09/20 at 15:46:34
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/09/20 at 12:08:25:
grandpatzer wrote on 03/09/20 at 08:33:29:
On another note, I was surprised, among many other things, to read that Bobby thought that Capablanca could have lost on purpose (for money) his 1927 match vs. Alekhine.


It doesn't even make sense from a financial standpoint.

Offensive politics and conspiracy theories, okay, I can get almost as bad from my own family. But his opinions of other chess players, world champions in particular, are what made me lose interest in all things Fischer.


According to Fischer everyone was betting for Capablanca as the match winner. So an Alekhine victory was paid a lot for those times. Capa could have had some of his associates bet for Alekhine, and then he let him win. Of course he then took a good part of the money. This according to Fischer of course.
  
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Re: Bobby Fischer - The Final Years
Reply #14 - 03/09/20 at 12:08:25
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grandpatzer wrote on 03/09/20 at 08:33:29:
On another note, I was surprised, among many other things, to read that Bobby thought that Capablanca could have lost on purpose (for money) his 1927 match vs. Alekhine.


It doesn't even make sense from a financial standpoint.

Offensive politics and conspiracy theories, okay, I can get almost as bad from my own family. But his opinions of other chess players, world champions in particular, are what made me lose interest in all things Fischer.
  
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Re: Bobby Fischer - The Final Years
Reply #13 - 03/09/20 at 08:33:29
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Thanks for the feedback Laramonet. I think that at some point in the Sverrisson book Helgi Olafsson is referred to, because there was some sort of problem with "a Grandmaster" following Bobby all the time for a paid commission, but I don't remember the exact page... 

On another note, I was surprised, among many other things, to read that Bobby thought that Capablanca could have lost on purpose (for money) his 1927 match vs. Alekhine.
  
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Re: Bobby Fischer - The Final Years
Reply #12 - 03/08/20 at 10:53:23
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I've now read both books and would say they are both worth reading. It may be just that it is more recent but I felt I learned more about the man in the Sverrisson book. There were lots of interesting comments like Fischer's habit to read books from people presenting diametrically opposing views on history or politics to those he held. Perhaps this suggests a more level-headed tendency than some of the sensational stories. Also when asked if Capablanca could really not have studied a chess book, Fischer would only say that his success was down to hard work. Altogether well recommended, not a sycophantic fairy tale, more an intimate description of the man.
  
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Re: Bobby Fischer - The Final Years
Reply #11 - 02/20/20 at 22:59:17
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Yes, it would be great to hear from someone who has read both books.
  

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Re: Bobby Fischer - The Final Years
Reply #10 - 01/13/20 at 11:01:00
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From what I know Sverrisson, had closest contact with Fischer than Olafsson. I haven't read Olafsson's book. Both should be interesting. I'd buy both and draw my conclusions. Smiley
  
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