Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian (Read 2818 times)
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2035
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #19 - 05/16/20 at 06:06:07
Post Tools
Glenn Snow wrote on 05/15/20 at 05:19:23:
TopNotch wrote on 05/15/20 at 03:04:05:
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 12/20/19 at 22:47:09:
So if one had to, for example, play the Modern as Black in a norm tournament, like the Sants Open in Barcelona, would it be risky to play the Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian against a IM or GM, if he were trying to get a norm.


Nowadays this system is very close to losing by force, so you should pick the opponent very carefully before venturing this. By the way the latest course I saw on this from Black's perspective was a 60min CB DVD by a 1900+ German Kid named Kenneth Nahnsen. 


Care to share the refutation?  Wink


Its not a complete refutation, but still extremely dangerous for Black:

1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c5 4.d5 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 f5 6.h4! Nf6 [6...Qa5!? 7.h5 d6 8.Qc2²] 7.h5 Rg8 8.hxg6 hxg6 9.d6! Ne4 [9...Qa5 10.dxe7 a) 10.Rh3 Nc6 11.Bg5 Ne4 12.Bxe7 Nxe7 13.dxe7 Kxe7 14.Re3 Kf6 15.f3 Ng5 16.Qd6+ Ne6 17.Nh3 Qd8 18.Nf4 a5 19.Rd1 Qf8 20.Nd5+ Kf7 21.Rxe6 dxe6 22.Qc7+ Ke8 23.Nb6 Qe7 24.Nxa8 Bd7 25.Nb6 Bc6 26.Na8 Qh4+ 27.g3 Qg5 28.Qe5 Kf7 29.Nc7 Qe7 30.Nb5 Rg7 31.Qc7 Qxc7 32.Nxc7 Kf6 33.Nb5 e5 34.Kf2 g5 35.Rd6+ Ke7 36.Rh6 e4 37.Nd6 Bd7 38.Nxb7 Be6 39.Nxc5 Bxc4 40.Nb3 a4 41.Nd4 Rf7 42.a3 f4 43.gxf4 1-0 (43) Petritaj,F (2250)-Kymionis,K (1939) Nikea GRE 2007; b) 10.Qd3 Ne4 11.f3 (11.dxe7 Qxc3+ 12.Qxc3 Nxc3 13.Nh3 Nc6 14.f3 Kxe7 15.Bg5+ Kf7 16.Bd2 Na4 17.Ng5+ Kf8 18.Rh7 Nb6 19.e4+-) 11...Nxd6 12.Rh7 Nf7 13.Bf4 Nc6 14.Rd1 d6 15.Nh3 Be6 16.Qe3 Kd7 17.Rh4 Rh8 18.g3 Rxh4 19.gxh4 Bxc4 0-1 (19) Vallepin,C-Bouton,C (2160) Elancourt 2003; 10...Nc6 (10...Qxc3+ 11.Bd2 Qxc4 12.e3 Qe6 13.Rc1 b6 14.Bc3 Nc6 15.Bxf6 Qxf6 16.Bc4 Rg7 17.Rh8+ Kxe7 18.Ne2 Bb7 19.Rh3 Na5 20.Bd5 Qd6 21.Nc3 Re8 22.Qf3 Bc6 23.Rd1 Qf6 24.Rd3 Nc4 25.Qe2 Ne5 26.Rd2 Ng4 27.Qd3 Ne5 28.Qa6 Nf7 29.e4 Ng5 30.Bxc6 dxc6 31.Qxa7+ Kf8 32.Rh8+ Rg8 33.Rxg8+ Kxg8 34.Qd7 Rf8 35.Nd1 Nxe4 36.Rb2 Rd8 0-1 (36) Lutz,T (1924)-Weigel,H (1947) Mittelfranken 2007) 11.Rh3 Ne4 (11...Nxe7 12.e4 fxe4 13.Bg5 Qb6 14.Rb1 Qc6 15.Qd2 Rf8 16.Re3 b6 17.Bxf6 Qxf6 18.Rd1 d6 19.f3 Bb7 20.Qe2 Nf5 21.Rxe4+ Bxe4 22.Qxe4+ Kf7 0-1 (22) Dekker,A (2237)-Balogh,T (2390) Bratislava 2001) 12.Bf4 d6 13.Bxd6 Be6 14.Qd3 Nb4 15.Qb1 Nxd6 16.cxb4 cxb4 17.Rb3 Nxc4 18.e3 Na3 19.Qb2 Bxb3 20.axb3 Nc2+ 21.Kd2 Nxa1 22.Bc4 Rc8 0-1 (22) Brustkern,J (2248)-Boricsev,O (2337) Hungary 2013;
9...exd6 10.Bg5 Qe7 11.Rh3 Kf7 12.Rd3 Qf8 13.Bxf6 Kxf6 14.Rxd6+ Kg7 15.Qd5 b6 16.Qe5+ Kh7 17.Rd3 g5 18.g4 Nc6 19.Rh3+ Kg6 20.gxf5+ Kf7 21.Qd5+ Ke8 22.0-0-0 Rg7 23.Rdd3 Bb7 24.f6 Rf7 25.Rhe3+ Kd8 26.Bh3 Kc7 27.Bxd7 Rxf6 28.Qxg5 Ba6 29.Bxc6 Kxc6 30.Qd5+ Kc7 31.Qd7+ 1-0 (31) Wicht,J (2145)-Kalepky,H (2085) Moehnesee 2003] 10.Rh7! Nc6 [10...Nxd6?? 11.Qd5 Rf8 12.Bh6+-] 11.dxe7 Qa5 12.Qc2 Nd4 13.Qb2 Qxc3+ 14.Qxc3 Nxc3 15.e3 Ne6 16.Nf3 a5 17.Ne5 Ra6 18.f3 Ng5 19.Rh4 Kxe7 20.Bd2 d6 21.Nxg6+ Rxg6 22.Bxc3 Nf7 23.Kf2 Rh6 24.Rxh6 Nxh6 25.e4 fxe4 26.Re1 Be6 27.Rxe4 Nf7 28.f4 Kd7 29.Re1 Nh6 30.Bd3 Bf5 31.Bxf5+ Nxf5 32.g4 Ne7 33.f5 a4 34.Bf6 Ng8 35.Bg7 d5 36.cxd5 Rd6 37.Re5 c4 38.g5 c3 39.Ke2 c2 40.Kd2 Ne7 41.f6 Nxd5 42.Kxc2 Nf4 43.Re7+ Kc6 44.f7 Ng6 45.Be5 Rd7 46.Rxd7 Nxe5 47.Re7 show Nxf7 48.Rxf7 b5 49.g6 b4 50.g7 b3+ 51.axb3 1-0


That looks a mess, is there a way to post the board with the moves?
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1696
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #18 - 05/15/20 at 05:19:23
Post Tools
TopNotch wrote on 05/15/20 at 03:04:05:
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 12/20/19 at 22:47:09:
So if one had to, for example, play the Modern as Black in a norm tournament, like the Sants Open in Barcelona, would it be risky to play the Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian against a IM or GM, if he were trying to get a norm.


Nowadays this system is very close to losing by force, so you should pick the opponent very carefully before venturing this. By the way the latest course I saw on this from Black's perspective was a 60min CB DVD by a 1900+ German Kid named Kenneth Nahnsen. 


Care to share the refutation?  Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2035
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #17 - 05/15/20 at 03:04:05
Post Tools
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 12/20/19 at 22:47:09:
So if one had to, for example, play the Modern as Black in a norm tournament, like the Sants Open in Barcelona, would it be risky to play the Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian against a IM or GM, if he were trying to get a norm.


Nowadays this system is very close to losing by force, so you should pick the opponent very carefully before venturing this. By the way the latest course I saw on this from Black's perspective was a 60min CB DVD by a 1900+ German Kid named Kenneth Nahnsen.
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1696
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #16 - 05/14/20 at 08:05:31
Post Tools
Mtal wrote on 05/14/20 at 04:25:31:
Glenn Snow wrote on 12/20/19 at 23:48:05:
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 12/20/19 at 22:47:09:
So if one had to, for example, play the Modern as Black in a norm tournament, like the Sants Open in Barcelona, would it be risky to play the Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian against a IM or GM, if he were trying to get a norm.


It would definitely be at least a little risky.  IM Vigorito did a short repertoire for Black with the opening.  If I remember correctly he thought it was a good surprise weapon while acknowledging the risk involved.

Where did he do this rep on it?


On the Chesslecture.com site.  iChess also sells it.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Mtal
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 185
Joined: 05/15/07
Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #15 - 05/14/20 at 04:25:31
Post Tools
Glenn Snow wrote on 12/20/19 at 23:48:05:
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 12/20/19 at 22:47:09:
So if one had to, for example, play the Modern as Black in a norm tournament, like the Sants Open in Barcelona, would it be risky to play the Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian against a IM or GM, if he were trying to get a norm.


It would definitely be at least a little risky.  IM Vigorito did a short repertoire for Black with the opening.  If I remember correctly he thought it was a good surprise weapon while acknowledging the risk involved.

Where did he do this rep on it?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1696
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #14 - 12/21/19 at 10:01:39
Post Tools
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 12/21/19 at 00:04:56:
So after here:



safest for Black would be to transpose to the Awerbach with ...d6/...e5, or is 3...c5 just as risky (or as safe) as the Awerbach.

Obviously the purpose of all of this is for Black to avoid playing the KID.


I think 3...c5 is not as risky if one follows up with the Late Benoni or Delayed Benoni. (Of course we're not talking about the Nimzo-Indian or QGD here.)  The Awerbach variation is fairly safe after 3...d6 4.e4 e5, if one has studied it.  I think all of the other fourth moves for Black are now known to be inferior (except of course 4...Nf6).  I'd love to be proven wrong about this however.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
mn
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 515
Location: Ottawa
Joined: 09/22/16
Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #13 - 12/21/19 at 03:00:41
Post Tools
Glenn Snow wrote on 12/20/19 at 11:36:39:
Lauri Torni wrote on 12/20/19 at 09:53:03:
IM_Serious wrote on 12/18/19 at 04:16:36:
1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c5 4.d5 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 f5

Apparently, this is also called Dzindzi Indian.



Is there a reason for white to play 3.Nc3 instead of 3.e4?


I doubt if there's any really good theoretical reason but I suppose there is the off chance that it doesn't match the rest of one's repertoire.  I once argued that 3.e4 could be met by 3...Nc6.  There it's slightly advantageous for Black not to have moved the d-pawn.

This has probably been mentioned but I've seen 1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c5 4.d6 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 f5 6.e4 e5 (often played but maybe it's not the best try) 7.Nh3 recommended for White.


iirc 3 e4 Nc6!? was recommended by Bologan in a DVD on the Pirc-Modern. It looks like a good compliment to the Dzindzi-Indian to me.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Leon_Trotsky
Senior Member
****
Offline


Кто был никем — тот станет
всем!

Posts: 499
Location: Barcelona, CAT
Joined: 08/11/17
Gender: Male
Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #12 - 12/21/19 at 00:04:56
Post Tools
So after here:



safest for Black would be to transpose to the Awerbach with ...d6/...e5, or is 3...c5 just as risky (or as safe) as the Awerbach.

Obviously the purpose of all of this is for Black to avoid playing the KID.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1696
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #11 - 12/20/19 at 23:48:05
Post Tools
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 12/20/19 at 22:47:09:
So if one had to, for example, play the Modern as Black in a norm tournament, like the Sants Open in Barcelona, would it be risky to play the Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian against a IM or GM, if he were trying to get a norm.


It would definitely be at least a little risky.  IM Vigorito did a short repertoire for Black with the opening.  If I remember correctly he thought it was a good surprise weapon while acknowledging the risk involved.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Leon_Trotsky
Senior Member
****
Offline


Кто был никем — тот станет
всем!

Posts: 499
Location: Barcelona, CAT
Joined: 08/11/17
Gender: Male
Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #10 - 12/20/19 at 22:47:09
Post Tools
So if one had to, for example, play the Modern as Black in a norm tournament, like the Sants Open in Barcelona, would it be risky to play the Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian against a IM or GM, if he were trying to get a norm.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1696
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #9 - 12/20/19 at 19:44:25
Post Tools
TD wrote on 12/20/19 at 15:37:09:
Glenn Snow wrote on 12/20/19 at 11:36:39:
This has probably been mentioned but I've seen 1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c5 4.d6 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 f5 6.e4 e5 (often played but maybe it's not the best try) 7.Nh3 recommended for White.

I don't think this is correct. My db has 0 games with 6...e5 and 7.exf5 seems winning...


Yes indeed, I left out some moves.  6...fxe4 7.f3 e5 8.Nh3 is correct.  I've played this numerous times in speed chess and surprisingly 8.fxe4? is the most common response.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TD
Senior Member
****
Offline


Feyenoord forever!

Posts: 491
Location: Rotterdam, NLD
Joined: 02/12/11
Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #8 - 12/20/19 at 15:37:09
Post Tools
Glenn Snow wrote on 12/20/19 at 11:36:39:
This has probably been mentioned but I've seen 1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c5 4.d6 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 f5 6.e4 e5 (often played but maybe it's not the best try) 7.Nh3 recommended for White.

I don't think this is correct. My db has 0 games with 6...e5 and 7.exf5 seems winning...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1696
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #7 - 12/20/19 at 11:36:39
Post Tools
Lauri Torni wrote on 12/20/19 at 09:53:03:
IM_Serious wrote on 12/18/19 at 04:16:36:
1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c5 4.d5 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 f5

Apparently, this is also called Dzindzi Indian.



Is there a reason for white to play 3.Nc3 instead of 3.e4?


I doubt if there's any really good theoretical reason but I suppose there is the off chance that it doesn't match the rest of one's repertoire.  I once argued that 3.e4 could be met by 3...Nc6.  There it's slightly advantageous for Black not to have moved the d-pawn.

This has probably been mentioned but I've seen 1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c5 4.d6 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 f5 6.e4 e5 (often played but maybe it's not the best try) 7.Nh3 recommended for White.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Lauri Torni
Senior Member
****
Offline


Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Posts: 262
Location: Finland
Joined: 01/09/03
Gender: Male
Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #6 - 12/20/19 at 09:53:03
Post Tools
IM_Serious wrote on 12/18/19 at 04:16:36:
1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c5 4.d5 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 f5

Apparently, this is also called Dzindzi Indian.



Is there a reason for white to play 3.Nc3 instead of 3.e4?
  

1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1984
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #5 - 12/19/19 at 10:56:02
Post Tools
LC0 doesn't seem to hate it? Around 60% which is hardly unusual.

It does have a few quite interesting ideas mind you - it likes going 6 h4 Nf6 7 h5 Rg8 8 hg hg and then 9 e4!? the point after 9.. Nxe4 being 10 f3 and then Nf6 11 d6!? or 10.. Nd6 11 Rh7.

Or 9 ..fe 10 d6 ed 11 Bg5.

It actually thinks that black probably shouldn't take on e4 on move 9. I can't imagine this being too off putting for people wanting to play this.

It also seems to think that white does OK just developing after 6 e4 fe. Say 7 Ne2 d6 8 Ng3 Nf6 9 Bf4 Nbd7 10 Be2 Ne5 11 o-o Bf5 and only then 12 f3. 

Seems a very rare approach at the moment, might be a slight practical annoyance for black.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo