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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian (Read 12776 times)
TopNotch
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Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #19 - 05/16/20 at 06:06:07
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Glenn Snow wrote on 05/15/20 at 05:19:23:
TopNotch wrote on 05/15/20 at 03:04:05:
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 12/20/19 at 22:47:09:
So if one had to, for example, play the Modern as Black in a norm tournament, like the Sants Open in Barcelona, would it be risky to play the Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian against a IM or GM, if he were trying to get a norm.


Nowadays this system is very close to losing by force, so you should pick the opponent very carefully before venturing this. By the way the latest course I saw on this from Black's perspective was a 60min CB DVD by a 1900+ German Kid named Kenneth Nahnsen. 


Care to share the refutation?  Wink


Its not a complete refutation, but still extremely dangerous for Black:

1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c5 4.d5 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 f5 6.h4! Nf6 [6...Qa5!? 7.h5 d6 8.Qc2²] 7.h5 Rg8 8.hxg6 hxg6 9.d6! Ne4 [9...Qa5 10.dxe7 a) 10.Rh3 Nc6 11.Bg5 Ne4 12.Bxe7 Nxe7 13.dxe7 Kxe7 14.Re3 Kf6 15.f3 Ng5 16.Qd6+ Ne6 17.Nh3 Qd8 18.Nf4 a5 19.Rd1 Qf8 20.Nd5+ Kf7 21.Rxe6 dxe6 22.Qc7+ Ke8 23.Nb6 Qe7 24.Nxa8 Bd7 25.Nb6 Bc6 26.Na8 Qh4+ 27.g3 Qg5 28.Qe5 Kf7 29.Nc7 Qe7 30.Nb5 Rg7 31.Qc7 Qxc7 32.Nxc7 Kf6 33.Nb5 e5 34.Kf2 g5 35.Rd6+ Ke7 36.Rh6 e4 37.Nd6 Bd7 38.Nxb7 Be6 39.Nxc5 Bxc4 40.Nb3 a4 41.Nd4 Rf7 42.a3 f4 43.gxf4 1-0 (43) Petritaj,F (2250)-Kymionis,K (1939) Nikea GRE 2007; b) 10.Qd3 Ne4 11.f3 (11.dxe7 Qxc3+ 12.Qxc3 Nxc3 13.Nh3 Nc6 14.f3 Kxe7 15.Bg5+ Kf7 16.Bd2 Na4 17.Ng5+ Kf8 18.Rh7 Nb6 19.e4+-) 11...Nxd6 12.Rh7 Nf7 13.Bf4 Nc6 14.Rd1 d6 15.Nh3 Be6 16.Qe3 Kd7 17.Rh4 Rh8 18.g3 Rxh4 19.gxh4 Bxc4 0-1 (19) Vallepin,C-Bouton,C (2160) Elancourt 2003; 10...Nc6 (10...Qxc3+ 11.Bd2 Qxc4 12.e3 Qe6 13.Rc1 b6 14.Bc3 Nc6 15.Bxf6 Qxf6 16.Bc4 Rg7 17.Rh8+ Kxe7 18.Ne2 Bb7 19.Rh3 Na5 20.Bd5 Qd6 21.Nc3 Re8 22.Qf3 Bc6 23.Rd1 Qf6 24.Rd3 Nc4 25.Qe2 Ne5 26.Rd2 Ng4 27.Qd3 Ne5 28.Qa6 Nf7 29.e4 Ng5 30.Bxc6 dxc6 31.Qxa7+ Kf8 32.Rh8+ Rg8 33.Rxg8+ Kxg8 34.Qd7 Rf8 35.Nd1 Nxe4 36.Rb2 Rd8 0-1 (36) Lutz,T (1924)-Weigel,H (1947) Mittelfranken 2007) 11.Rh3 Ne4 (11...Nxe7 12.e4 fxe4 13.Bg5 Qb6 14.Rb1 Qc6 15.Qd2 Rf8 16.Re3 b6 17.Bxf6 Qxf6 18.Rd1 d6 19.f3 Bb7 20.Qe2 Nf5 21.Rxe4+ Bxe4 22.Qxe4+ Kf7 0-1 (22) Dekker,A (2237)-Balogh,T (2390) Bratislava 2001) 12.Bf4 d6 13.Bxd6 Be6 14.Qd3 Nb4 15.Qb1 Nxd6 16.cxb4 cxb4 17.Rb3 Nxc4 18.e3 Na3 19.Qb2 Bxb3 20.axb3 Nc2+ 21.Kd2 Nxa1 22.Bc4 Rc8 0-1 (22) Brustkern,J (2248)-Boricsev,O (2337) Hungary 2013; 
9...exd6 10.Bg5 Qe7 11.Rh3 Kf7 12.Rd3 Qf8 13.Bxf6 Kxf6 14.Rxd6+ Kg7 15.Qd5 b6 16.Qe5+ Kh7 17.Rd3 g5 18.g4 Nc6 19.Rh3+ Kg6 20.gxf5+ Kf7 21.Qd5+ Ke8 22.0-0-0 Rg7 23.Rdd3 Bb7 24.f6 Rf7 25.Rhe3+ Kd8 26.Bh3 Kc7 27.Bxd7 Rxf6 28.Qxg5 Ba6 29.Bxc6 Kxc6 30.Qd5+ Kc7 31.Qd7+ 1-0 (31) Wicht,J (2145)-Kalepky,H (2085) Moehnesee 2003] 10.Rh7! Nc6 [10...Nxd6?? 11.Qd5 Rf8 12.Bh6+-] 11.dxe7 Qa5 12.Qc2 Nd4 13.Qb2 Qxc3+ 14.Qxc3 Nxc3 15.e3 Ne6 16.Nf3 a5 17.Ne5 Ra6 18.f3 Ng5 19.Rh4 Kxe7 20.Bd2 d6 21.Nxg6+ Rxg6 22.Bxc3 Nf7 23.Kf2 Rh6 24.Rxh6 Nxh6 25.e4 fxe4 26.Re1 Be6 27.Rxe4 Nf7 28.f4 Kd7 29.Re1 Nh6 30.Bd3 Bf5 31.Bxf5+ Nxf5 32.g4 Ne7 33.f5 a4 34.Bf6 Ng8 35.Bg7 d5 36.cxd5 Rd6 37.Re5 c4 38.g5 c3 39.Ke2 c2 40.Kd2 Ne7 41.f6 Nxd5 42.Kxc2 Nf4 43.Re7+ Kc6 44.f7 Ng6 45.Be5 Rd7 46.Rxd7 Nxe5 47.Re7 show Nxf7 48.Rxf7 b5 49.g6 b4 50.g7 b3+ 51.axb3 1-0

That looks a mess, is there a way to post the board with the moves?
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #18 - 05/15/20 at 05:19:23
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TopNotch wrote on 05/15/20 at 03:04:05:
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 12/20/19 at 22:47:09:
So if one had to, for example, play the Modern as Black in a norm tournament, like the Sants Open in Barcelona, would it be risky to play the Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian against a IM or GM, if he were trying to get a norm.


Nowadays this system is very close to losing by force, so you should pick the opponent very carefully before venturing this. By the way the latest course I saw on this from Black's perspective was a 60min CB DVD by a 1900+ German Kid named Kenneth Nahnsen. 


Care to share the refutation?  Wink
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #17 - 05/15/20 at 03:04:05
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 12/20/19 at 22:47:09:
So if one had to, for example, play the Modern as Black in a norm tournament, like the Sants Open in Barcelona, would it be risky to play the Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian against a IM or GM, if he were trying to get a norm.


Nowadays this system is very close to losing by force, so you should pick the opponent very carefully before venturing this. By the way the latest course I saw on this from Black's perspective was a 60min CB DVD by a 1900+ German Kid named Kenneth Nahnsen.
  
The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #16 - 05/14/20 at 08:05:31
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Mtal wrote on 05/14/20 at 04:25:31:
Glenn Snow wrote on 12/20/19 at 23:48:05:
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 12/20/19 at 22:47:09:
So if one had to, for example, play the Modern as Black in a norm tournament, like the Sants Open in Barcelona, would it be risky to play the Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian against a IM or GM, if he were trying to get a norm.


It would definitely be at least a little risky.  IM Vigorito did a short repertoire for Black with the opening.  If I remember correctly he thought it was a good surprise weapon while acknowledging the risk involved.

Where did he do this rep on it?


On the Chesslecture.com site.  iChess also sells it.
  
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Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #15 - 05/14/20 at 04:25:31
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Glenn Snow wrote on 12/20/19 at 23:48:05:
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 12/20/19 at 22:47:09:
So if one had to, for example, play the Modern as Black in a norm tournament, like the Sants Open in Barcelona, would it be risky to play the Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian against a IM or GM, if he were trying to get a norm.


It would definitely be at least a little risky.  IM Vigorito did a short repertoire for Black with the opening.  If I remember correctly he thought it was a good surprise weapon while acknowledging the risk involved.

Where did he do this rep on it?
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #14 - 12/21/19 at 10:01:39
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 12/21/19 at 00:04:56:
So after here:



safest for Black would be to transpose to the Awerbach with ...d6/...e5, or is 3...c5 just as risky (or as safe) as the Awerbach.

Obviously the purpose of all of this is for Black to avoid playing the KID.


I think 3...c5 is not as risky if one follows up with the Late Benoni or Delayed Benoni. (Of course we're not talking about the Nimzo-Indian or QGD here.)  The Awerbach variation is fairly safe after 3...d6 4.e4 e5, if one has studied it.  I think all of the other fourth moves for Black are now known to be inferior (except of course 4...Nf6).  I'd love to be proven wrong about this however.
  
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Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #13 - 12/21/19 at 03:00:41
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Glenn Snow wrote on 12/20/19 at 11:36:39:
Lauri Torni wrote on 12/20/19 at 09:53:03:
IM_Serious wrote on 12/18/19 at 04:16:36:
1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c5 4.d5 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 f5 

Apparently, this is also called Dzindzi Indian.



Is there a reason for white to play 3.Nc3 instead of 3.e4? 


I doubt if there's any really good theoretical reason but I suppose there is the off chance that it doesn't match the rest of one's repertoire.  I once argued that 3.e4 could be met by 3...Nc6.  There it's slightly advantageous for Black not to have moved the d-pawn.

This has probably been mentioned but I've seen 1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c5 4.d6 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 f5 6.e4 e5 (often played but maybe it's not the best try) 7.Nh3 recommended for White.


iirc 3 e4 Nc6!? was recommended by Bologan in a DVD on the Pirc-Modern. It looks like a good compliment to the Dzindzi-Indian to me.
  
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Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #12 - 12/21/19 at 00:04:56
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So after here:



safest for Black would be to transpose to the Awerbach with ...d6/...e5, or is 3...c5 just as risky (or as safe) as the Awerbach.

Obviously the purpose of all of this is for Black to avoid playing the KID.
  
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Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #11 - 12/20/19 at 23:48:05
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 12/20/19 at 22:47:09:
So if one had to, for example, play the Modern as Black in a norm tournament, like the Sants Open in Barcelona, would it be risky to play the Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian against a IM or GM, if he were trying to get a norm.


It would definitely be at least a little risky.  IM Vigorito did a short repertoire for Black with the opening.  If I remember correctly he thought it was a good surprise weapon while acknowledging the risk involved.
  
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Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #10 - 12/20/19 at 22:47:09
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So if one had to, for example, play the Modern as Black in a norm tournament, like the Sants Open in Barcelona, would it be risky to play the Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian against a IM or GM, if he were trying to get a norm.
  
https://elajedrezdelproletariado.blogspot.com/
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Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #9 - 12/20/19 at 19:44:25
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TD wrote on 12/20/19 at 15:37:09:
Glenn Snow wrote on 12/20/19 at 11:36:39:

This has probably been mentioned but I've seen 1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c5 4.d6 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 f5 6.e4 e5 (often played but maybe it's not the best try) 7.Nh3 recommended for White.

I don't think this is correct. My db has 0 games with 6...e5 and 7.exf5 seems winning...


Yes indeed, I left out some moves.  6...fxe4 7.f3 e5 8.Nh3 is correct.  I've played this numerous times in speed chess and surprisingly 8.fxe4? is the most common response.
  
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Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #8 - 12/20/19 at 15:37:09
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Glenn Snow wrote on 12/20/19 at 11:36:39:

This has probably been mentioned but I've seen 1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c5 4.d6 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 f5 6.e4 e5 (often played but maybe it's not the best try) 7.Nh3 recommended for White.

I don't think this is correct. My db has 0 games with 6...e5 and 7.exf5 seems winning...
  
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Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #7 - 12/20/19 at 11:36:39
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Lauri Torni wrote on 12/20/19 at 09:53:03:
IM_Serious wrote on 12/18/19 at 04:16:36:
1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c5 4.d5 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 f5 

Apparently, this is also called Dzindzi Indian.



Is there a reason for white to play 3.Nc3 instead of 3.e4? 


I doubt if there's any really good theoretical reason but I suppose there is the off chance that it doesn't match the rest of one's repertoire.  I once argued that 3.e4 could be met by 3...Nc6.  There it's slightly advantageous for Black not to have moved the d-pawn.

This has probably been mentioned but I've seen 1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c5 4.d6 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 f5 6.e4 e5 (often played but maybe it's not the best try) 7.Nh3 recommended for White.
  
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Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #6 - 12/20/19 at 09:53:03
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IM_Serious wrote on 12/18/19 at 04:16:36:
1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c5 4.d5 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 f5 

Apparently, this is also called Dzindzi Indian.



Is there a reason for white to play 3.Nc3 instead of 3.e4? 
  
1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
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Re: Current state of Dzindzishchashchwili-Indian
Reply #5 - 12/19/19 at 10:56:02
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LC0 doesn't seem to hate it? Around 60% which is hardly unusual.

It does have a few quite interesting ideas mind you - it likes going 6 h4 Nf6 7 h5 Rg8 8 hg hg and then 9 e4!? the point after 9.. Nxe4 being 10 f3 and then Nf6 11 d6!? or 10.. Nd6 11 Rh7.

Or 9 ..fe 10 d6 ed 11 Bg5. 

It actually thinks that black probably shouldn't take on e4 on move 9. I can't imagine this being too off putting for people wanting to play this.

It also seems to think that white does OK just developing after 6 e4 fe. Say 7 Ne2 d6 8 Ng3 Nf6 9 Bf4 Nbd7 10 Be2 Ne5 11 o-o Bf5 and only then 12 f3.   

Seems a very rare approach at the moment, might be a slight practical annoyance for black.
  
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