ChessPub Forum - Kramnik Sicilian

Jupp53 God Member Offline be Posts: 988 Location: Frankfurt/Main Joined: 01/04/09 Gender:	Re: Kramnik Sicilian Reply #24 - 01/26/20 at 23:25:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	ErictheRed wrote on 01/24/20 at 21:50:18: You do seem to be ignoring some good advice that you've already received, though. You also seem intent on being s "Kan player," thinking that you must strive to play the Kan and only the Kan whenever possible. You are offensive. Neither do I ignore the advice here nor do I think of myself as a Kan player. There is some advice here I like and will work with. Your advice was neither good advice nor directed to the question asked. In consequence of your misconception your comments with matters of course are as helpful as talking about something completely different, what you do indeed. And far from witty as the series this quote comes from. What I want to do is learning for the first time an open sicilian. As one system is enough workload for some years I try to reduce alternatives as good as possible and hints to strategic ideas in case I have to avoid this system. Maybe be I'm no chess player, as you write implicitly. Surely you didn't understand what I asked for. So rethink your answers or change your style!!!

	Medical textbooks say I should be dead since April 2002. Dum spiro spero. Narcissm is the humans primary disease.
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ErictheRed

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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #23 - 01/25/20 at 05:22:08

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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 01/25/20 at 04:09:03:

Since your intended Kan line is
(A) 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 a6 5.c4 Nf6 6.Nc3 Qc7

I think you could actually get away with the following "Kramnik" line:
(B) 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 a6 4.Nc3 Qc7 5.Be2 Nf6.

(B1) 6.d4 is the only move in Lutes, but 6...cxd4 7.Nxd4 is no problem for you. It transposes to (A) with 7.Be2, but what do you play now? Is it 7...Bb4 perhaps?

(B2) 6.O-O is subtler, now I believe 6...Nc6 is still best. After 7.d4 cxd4 8.Nxd4 it's true white has avoided (A) and (B1), but black is probably still okay, at least not worse off than in your intended Kan line. The database offers 13 (!) different moves for black. Most active is 8...Bb4 when the plausible 9.Nxc6 dxc6 looks very much like a typical Kan.

I don't think that it's that simple. First, White might try 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 a6 4.Nc3 Qc7 5.g3!?, which looks interesting given that Black has combined ...a6 and ...Qc7 so early.

More directly, what happens after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 a6 4.Nc3 Qc7 5.Be2 Nf6 6.0-0 is an important question. If 6...Nc6, then 7.d4! cd 8.Nxd4 and I believe that White maintains at least a slight edge. He has transposed to a position that normally arises via the Kan move order,
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 a6 5. c4 Nf6 6. Nc3 Qc7 7. Be2 Nc6 8. O-O.

The problem (for Black) is, going back to the position after 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 a6 5. c4 Nf6 6. Nc3 Qc7 7. Be2,

7...Nc6 is considered inferior to 7...Bb4, and possibly inferior to 7...b6, 7...Be7, maybe even 7...d6 as well. After 7...Nc6 8.0-0 Bb4 (as you proposed by the "Kramnik Sicilian" move order), White probably has an edge after 9.Bg5 or 9.Nxc6. 9.Na4!? is also leaves Black with some problems to solve.

Here's one older game (PGN doesn't seem to be embedding):
[Event "Wch U20"]
[Site "Athens"]
[Date "2001.08.19"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Aronian, Levon"]
[Black "Papp, Gabor"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B41"]
[WhiteElo "2562"]
[BlackElo "2291"]
[PlyCount "59"]
[EventDate "2001.08.16"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. c4 Nc6 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. Be2 a6 6. O-O Qc7 7. d4 cxd4 8. Nxd4
Bb4 9. Nxc6 dxc6 10. Be3 O-O 11. Qc2 e5 12. Na4 Be7 13. Nb6 Rb8 14. Nxc8 Rbxc8
15. c5 h6 16. g3 Rcd8 17. b4 Rfe8 18. h4 Nd7 19. Bc4 Nf8 20. f4 exf4 21. Bxf4
Qc8 22. Bd6 Ne6 23. e5 Bxd6 24. exd6 b6 25. Rxf7 Kxf7 26. Qh7 Rxd6 27. cxd6 Kf6
28. Rf1+ Ke5 29. d7 Qxd7 30. Qf5+ 1-0

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an ordinary chessplayer God Member Offline I used to be not bad. Posts: 1672 Location: Columbus, OH (USA) Joined: 01/02/15	Re: Kramnik Sicilian Reply #22 - 01/25/20 at 04:09:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	Since your intended Kan line is (A) 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 a6 5.c4 Nf6 6.Nc3 Qc7 I think you could actually get away with the following "Kramnik" line: (B) 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 a6 4.Nc3 Qc7 5.Be2 Nf6. (B1) 6.d4 is the only move in Lutes, but 6...cxd4 7.Nxd4 is no problem for you. It transposes to (A) with 7.Be2, but what do you play now? Is it 7...Bb4 perhaps? (B2) 6.O-O is subtler, now I believe 6...Nc6 is still best. After 7.d4 cxd4 8.Nxd4 it's true white has avoided (A) and (B1), but black is probably still okay, at least not worse off than in your intended Kan line. The database offers 13 (!) different moves for black. Most active is 8...Bb4 when the plausible 9.Nxc6 dxc6 looks very much like a typical Kan.


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ErictheRed God Member Offline USCF National Master Posts: 2533 Location: USA Joined: 10/02/05	Re: Kramnik Sicilian Reply #21 - 01/24/20 at 21:50:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'm not being offensive. I mean that you are asking a repertoire question (what to play after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4), and like all repertoire questions, eventually you must answer it for yourself. You may seek advice and have a discussion, but ultimately the choice is yours. You do seem to be ignoring some good advice that you've already received, though. You also seem intent on being s "Kan player," thinking that you must strive to play the Kan and only the Kan whenever possible. This kind of thinking is a mistake! Your opponent can always avoid your main defense. He could play 1.d4, 1.c4, 1.Nf3, 1.g3...he could play the Alapin, the Closed Sicilian, the Grand Prix, 2.Nge2; none of these are the Kan. After 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4, accept that you may not be able to play the Kan either, depending on how White continues. Accept that you are not a Kan player, but a chess player. Look at the position on the board and decide what moves you want to play without worrying about the names that those moves are attached to.


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Jupp53 God Member Offline be Posts: 988 Location: Frankfurt/Main Joined: 01/04/09 Gender:	Re: Kramnik Sicilian Reply #20 - 01/24/20 at 15:56:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	ErictheRed wrote on 01/23/20 at 18:18:32: Just think critically about the actual position on the board and decide whether you are happy with it or not, not whether it is a "Kan" or "Taimanov." Answer the question for yourself. The concrete position is one side. The other side is learning and understanding and the way to get the content. You must know a lot about sicilians to advice looking at the concrete position only. Probably not meant so the last sentence is a bit offending. Does this need an explanation? If yes, I will answer to an according question.

	Medical textbooks say I should be dead since April 2002. Dum spiro spero. Narcissm is the humans primary disease.
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ErictheRed God Member Offline USCF National Master Posts: 2533 Location: USA Joined: 10/02/05	Re: Kramnik Sicilian Reply #19 - 01/23/20 at 18:18:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Just think critically about the actual position on the board and decide whether you are happy with it or not, not whether it is a "Kan" or "Taimanov." Answer the question for yourself.


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Jupp53 God Member Offline be Posts: 988 Location: Frankfurt/Main Joined: 01/04/09 Gender:	Re: Kramnik Sicilian Reply #18 - 01/23/20 at 16:29:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	@ErictheRed I cannot answer this is question as I play 6... Qc7 and after 7.Bd3 Nc6. Then I'm happy with a6.

	Medical textbooks say I should be dead since April 2002. Dum spiro spero. Narcissm is the humans primary disease.
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ErictheRed God Member Offline USCF National Master Posts: 2533 Location: USA Joined: 10/02/05	Re: Kramnik Sicilian Reply #17 - 01/18/20 at 23:59:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	Jupp53 wrote on 01/18/20 at 10:32:40: @stockhausen To correct this: I'm worried to be move-ordered as black into the Taimanov. OK, you think of yourself as a Kan player, so presumably you have the line 3.d4 cd 4.Nxd4 a6 5.c4 Nf6 6.Nc3 Bb4 in your repertoire. Would you honestly rather have ...a6 than ...Nc6 on the board in that position?


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an ordinary chessplayer God Member Offline I used to be not bad. Posts: 1672 Location: Columbus, OH (USA) Joined: 01/02/15	Re: Kramnik Sicilian Reply #16 - 01/18/20 at 19:43:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	I gave the Paulsen / O'Kelly line, but nowhere did I say that black should play that way. That idea was just in your imagination. See also reply #7 where I advocated for 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 Nc6.


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stockhausen YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing so much! Posts: 42 Joined: 01/19/19	Re: Kramnik Sicilian Reply #15 - 01/18/20 at 18:27:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Jupp53 wrote on 01/18/20 at 10:32:40: To correct this: I'm worried to be move-ordered as black into the Taimanov. I understand this, but I'm just pointing out that I don't see why being move ordered as black into the O'Kelly as suggested in #5 would solve your problem.


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Jupp53 God Member Offline be Posts: 988 Location: Frankfurt/Main Joined: 01/04/09 Gender:	Re: Kramnik Sicilian Reply #14 - 01/18/20 at 10:32:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	@stockhausen To correct this: I'm worried to be move-ordered as black into the Taimanov.

	Medical textbooks say I should be dead since April 2002. Dum spiro spero. Narcissm is the humans primary disease.
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stockhausen YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing so much! Posts: 42 Joined: 01/19/19	Re: Kramnik Sicilian Reply #13 - 01/15/20 at 17:18:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 01/06/20 at 20:48:50: Lutes (1993) Sicilian Defense: O'Kelly Variation has substantial coverage of 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 a6, via the move order 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 a6 3.c4 e6. I don't have the book in front of me, but very plausible is 4.Nc3 Qc7 5.Be2 Nf6 6.O-O ... White can wait quite a bit before playing d2-d4. This 3.c4 move order might trouble black, depending on the intended plan after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 a6 5.c4. If the OP is worried about being move ordered into a bad line of the Taimanov for white, surely he would be more worried about being move ordered into a bad line of the O'Kelly Sicilian for black?


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Jupp53 God Member Offline be Posts: 988 Location: Frankfurt/Main Joined: 01/04/09 Gender:	Re: Kramnik Sicilian Reply #12 - 01/11/20 at 01:50:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	Glenn Snow wrote on 01/10/20 at 22:45:18: [quote author=6C5356561315260 link=1578181289/0#0 date=1578181289] I don't currently have a chesspublishing.com membership but still found eight games with 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4. Also Kaufman's new repertoire for White and Black covers this as an alternative for White instead of his main recommendation of 3.c3. Yes. I first looked only at the pdf-files. Meanwhile I downloaded the commented games and found those 8 games too. Pardon for my mistake. Should have done this earlier. Thank you for the hint to Kaufman. This topic helped me to get enough games and comments to look at. Maybe I will give feedback about that, if it could be of some use for the readers of this forum (what I doubt in advance, to be honest).

	Medical textbooks say I should be dead since April 2002. Dum spiro spero. Narcissm is the humans primary disease.
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Glenn Snow God Member Offline Posts: 1720 Location: Franklin Joined: 09/27/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik Sicilian Reply #11 - 01/10/20 at 22:45:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	Jupp53 wrote on 01/04/20 at 23:41:29: There is no treatment of the Kramnik-line of the e6 sicilian in the commented games. Is there any book giving a useful review for a player around 2000 who never played 1.c4 himself and doesn't know much about the resulting structures? It is 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 Main move is 3... Nc6, which is a little annoying for me. I'm learning Kan setups and Nc6 are Taimanov lines. Chessbase has over 3500 games in his Megabase. Should I send this to Tony? I don't currently have a chesspublishing.com membership but still found eight games with 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4. Also Kaufman's new repertoire for White and Black covers this as an alternative for White instead of his main recommendation of 3.c3.


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fling God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1591 Joined: 01/21/11 Gender:	Re: Kramnik Sicilian Reply #10 - 01/07/20 at 14:14:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	I came to think about van Kampen's videos on chess24, and he actually recommends 1.e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. c4 Nc6 4. Nc3 Nd4!?, thus also giving an alternative to 4...e5


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