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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Kramnik Sicilian (Read 4338 times)
ErictheRed
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #39 - 01/28/20 at 21:37:59
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All pardoned, cheers!  Back to chess.
  
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Jupp53
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #38 - 01/28/20 at 19:00:20
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ErictheRed wrote on 01/28/20 at 14:48:08:
I don't think that I changed any of my quoted text.  Every single post of mine that you (Jupp53) quoted still exists, verbatim.  The post that you called offensive, reply #19, has not been edited at all.  Therefore I don't understand the intention behind saying "Looking at the whole topic I see ErictheRed has edited his posts here and you can see this via my quotes" which implies that I wrote something offensive and later changed it, which I did not do.


You're right with this and I beg your pardon for my error about editing. One reason was reading this topic on another device not showing the diagrams, a second one my emotional state. So I was completely wrong about editing.

The other points: I'm not that important. It's your style and I accept what you wrote about it. Being sometimes too thin-skinned I hope to be more aware of this in the future. This is my mess.

What will make me angry if someone tells me what my intentions "are" without asking and contradictory to what I said.  Angry I will not change here. This happens again and lately in another topic elsewhere. I came to the conclusion asking in future about a course in mind-reading from the respective persons.  Grin

Back to chess.
  

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ErictheRed
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #37 - 01/28/20 at 14:48:08
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I edit my posts only for grammar or clarity, or to add additional content that I think of later.  If you look at my posts around the forum, I would guess that most have been edited (including this one), especially because I often post from my phone first.

I don't think that I changed any of my quoted text.  Every single post of mine that you (Jupp53) quoted still exists, verbatim.  The post that you called offensive, reply #19, has not been edited at all.  Therefore I don't understand the intention behind saying "Looking at the whole topic I see ErictheRed has edited his posts here and you can see this via my quotes" which implies that I wrote something offensive and later changed it, which I did not do.

Of course, a person could press the quote button and then type any text that they want inside of the HTML tags, so a quoted post is no record of accuracy anyway. 

I genuinely don't understand what "As he did delete his chess advice with this ad personam sine necessitas I don't know if he got what he did" refers to.

Lastly, I have reminded other people in other threads that they are playing a game called chess and not a game called The French Defense or The Dragon or The Saemisch,  as I think that it helps to remember that we cannot always play our standard moves and expect good results.  Sometimes we have to put the knight on f3 or play ...e7-e5.  Sometimes we need to go back to basics and develop, get castled, fight for the center, etc.  Those posts in other threads didn't seem to cause offense. 
« Last Edit: 01/28/20 at 16:07:05 by ErictheRed »  
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Jupp53
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #36 - 01/28/20 at 08:24:54
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@Stigma @anordinarychessplayer

Looking at the whole topic I see ErictheRed has edited his posts here and you can see this via my quotes.

The offense was in his view as being personal superior and telling me, what were my intentions, that im not willing to judge myself positions to search for the best move. that i have to become a chess player not a Kan player.

Hinted to this attitude after his first post he gave this evidence clearly. I'm not amused about this. But this attitude is not my problem. He has to live with it. As he did delete his chess advice with this ad personam sine necessitas I don't know if he got what he did. That's why I write this.

All this is nothing to be happy for the readers too. But shit happens in communities and ErictheRed is according to my observations a constructive member in this forum, giving far more concrete lines than I do.

May this be my last ad personam post here, may everybody (explicitly myself included) reflect the own behavior to add to a good user experience of the forum, may ErictheRed continue giving input for people asking.

Pardon for the personal remarks. Back to content, if possible. And if the moderator wants to delete this post after one or two days I agree.
  

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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #35 - 01/28/20 at 03:22:33
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Stigma wrote on 01/28/20 at 01:48:10:
Maybe some cultural difference was at play here. Yes, ErictheRed was direct, but I don't see anything really offensive in his posts.

I agree with this.

Also, Jupp53 seems to be one who thinks more and posts less. EricTheRed interpreted this as ignoring the advice, when in fact Jupp53 was properly still evaluating the advice. Or at least that was my take on it.
  
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Stigma
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #34 - 01/28/20 at 01:48:10
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Jupp53 wrote on 01/27/20 at 19:30:59:
ErictheRed wrote on 01/27/20 at 16:46:28:
... , but perhaps I'm wrong.


Not "perhaps", 100%. It is only sad. And as you don't try to get it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzvDofigTKQ

Maybe some cultural difference was at play here. Yes, ErictheRed was direct, but I don't see anything really offensive in his posts.

He does have some good points: Sometimes it's more important to play the best moves than reaching one's intended/favorite setup (the Kan in this case), and even if the knight goes to c6 after 3.c4 it usually doesn't lead to a direct transposition to the Taimanov anyway.
  

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Jupp53
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #33 - 01/28/20 at 01:15:03
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This game shows some play for black in the structure with f3 - Rac1 - b4

[Event "Saint Louis Showdown Rapid 2"]
[Site "Saint Louis"]
[Date "2015.11.14"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Negi, Parimarjan"]
[Black "Hou, Yifan"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A31"]
[WhiteElo "2664"]
[BlackElo "2683"]
[PlyCount "124"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 a6 3. c4 e6 4. Nc3 Qc7 5. Be2 b6 6. d4 cxd4 7. Nxd4 Bb7 8. O-O Nf6 9. f3 d6 10. Be3 Be7 11. Qd2 O-O 12. Rac1 Nbd7 13. Rfd1 Rac8 14. b4 Qb8 15.a3 Rfe8 16. Nb3 Bc6 17. Kh1 h6 18.Bf1 Ne5 19. Qf2 Bd7 20. Nb1 Ba4 21. N1d2 b5 22. c5 dxc5 23. Bxc5 Bxc5 24. Rxc5 Nfd7 25.Rxc8 Rxc8 26. Qd4 Nb6 27. Rc1 Rd8 28. Qc3 Qd6 29. Qc5 Bxb3 30. Nxb3 Nbc4 31. Qxd6 Rxd6  32. a4 bxa4 33. Nc5 Nb2 34. Ra1 a3 35. Bxa6 a2 36. Kg1 Rd1+ 37. Rxd1 Nxd1 38. Nb3 Kf8 39. Kf1 Ne3+ 40. Ke2 Nc2 41. Kd2 Nxb4 42. Be2 Nec6 43. Kc3 Ke7  44. Kxc2 Nd4+ 45. Kb2 Nxb3 46.Kxa2 Nc1+ 47. Kb2 Nxe2) 44. Bb5 Kd6 45. Kb2 g5 46. g3 Ne5 47. Be2 Ned3+ 48. Kc3 Nc1 49. Na1 Nxe2+ 50. Kxb4 Nd4 51. f4 gxf4 52. gxf4 Ne2 53. f5 e5 54. Ka3 Nc3 55. Nc2 Ke7 56. Kb2 Nxe4 57. Ne3 Kf6 58. Ng4+ Kxf5 59. Nxh6+ Ke6 60. Kxa2 f5 61. Kb2 Kf6 62. Kc2 Nd6 0-1

Before judging this  there is some analysis necessary for me.

Ideas after f4 instead of f3 will probably be in the dbs.
  

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Jupp53
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #32 - 01/27/20 at 19:30:59
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ErictheRed wrote on 01/27/20 at 16:46:28:
... , but perhaps I'm wrong.


Not "perhaps", 100%. It is only sad. And as you don't try to get it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzvDofigTKQ

Anyway thanks to the lines and hints to the hedgehood ideas to everybody.
  

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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #31 - 01/27/20 at 18:42:45
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What if we say that after 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 e6 3 c4 Nc6 4 d4 cxd4 5 Nxd4 Nf6 6 Nc3 Bb4 you're playing a not terribly popular line of the English Opening (1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6 4 d4 cxd4 5 Nxd4 e6 6 e4 Bb4). Does that make it more appealing? In general, I agree with Eric, without getting into whether or not he came across as offensive. Against the Maroczy Bind, replacing ...a6 with ...Nc6 seems like a good trade-off to me.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #30 - 01/27/20 at 16:46:28
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Jupp53 wrote on 01/26/20 at 23:25:09:
ErictheRed wrote on 01/24/20 at 21:50:18:
You do seem to be ignoring some good advice that you've already received, though.  You also seem intent on being s "Kan player," thinking that you must strive to play the Kan and only the Kan whenever possible.


You are offensive.

Neither do I ignore the advice here nor do I think of myself as a Kan player...



Well, in your own words,

Jupp53 wrote on 01/06/20 at 20:20:49:
Maybe - the main problem: With 3... Nc6 I'm move ordered out of the Kan. This means I have to learn another Sicilian.


You also seem to have ignored some good points about 3...Nc6 not necessarily leading to a Taimanov or about possible O'Kelly transpositions, etc., but perhaps I'm wrong.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #29 - 01/27/20 at 16:11:30
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Thanks MNb, I don't have Attacking the Flexible Sicilian but those lines look very good as well.
  
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #28 - 01/27/20 at 06:33:00
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 01/27/20 at 01:01:14:
To find 2500-players on the black side, look at 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 a6 4. Nc3 Qc7 5.Be2 Nf6 6.O-O Be7 7.d4 cxd4 8.Nxd4 d6 9.Be3 O-O 10.f3.

Unfortunately you guys seem to forget to take a look at Attacking the Flexible Sicilian, which recommends 9.f4 Nbd7 10.Qd3 O-O 11.g4.
8...b6 (iso 8...d6) 9.Qd3 d6 (Bb4 10.Bg5) 10.f4 Nbd7 11.b4 isn't a bed of roses either. The authors Kotronias and Semkov apply a healthy principle: attack when you can, squeeze when you cannot. It gives Black a very hard time.
  

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ErictheRed
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #27 - 01/27/20 at 04:19:25
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Again I don't think it's so simple, because in this move order White needn't play so passively.  Instead of 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 a6 4. Nc3 Qc7 5.Be2 Nf6 6.O-O Be7 7.d4 cxd4 8.Nxd4 d6 9.Be3 O-O 10.f3, White should play 10.Rc1! b6 11.f4!, which I believe is good for White.  11...Bb7 12.Bf3 Nbd7 13.g4!, etc. 

6.0-0 d6 7. d4 cxd4 8. Nxd4 b6 might be better, but here White may try 9.b4!? Bb7 10.Bb2 (I forget where I discovered this idea).  Also 9.f4 Bb7 10.f5 may be strong for White, or 10.Bf3 Nbd7 11.Re1!.

Black is playing with fire by delaying his development for so long. 



  
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #26 - 01/27/20 at 01:01:14
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If you are willing to play the Hedgehog, rather than the more active ...Nb8-c6 and/or ...Bf8-b4 ideas, then many of your move-order problems vanish. Black has many ways to reach the Hedgehog. It might be a bit more accurate to defer ...d7-d6 until white threatens e4-e5, alternatively until black needs the d7-square for ...Nb8-d7. If white continues to avoid d2-d4, black might even be able to play ...d7-d5.

To find 2500-players on the black side, look at 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 a6 4. Nc3 Qc7 5.Be2 Nf6 6.O-O Be7 7.d4 cxd4 8.Nxd4 d6 9.Be3 O-O 10.f3.
  
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #25 - 01/27/20 at 00:07:47
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 01/25/20 at 04:09:03:
(B2) 6.O-O is subtler, now I believe 6...Nc6 is still best. After 7.d4 cxd4 8.Nxd4 it's true white has avoided (A) and (B1), but black is probably still okay, at least not worse off than in your intended Kan line. The database offers 13 (!) different moves for black. Most active is 8...Bb4 when the plausible 9.Nxc6 dxc6 looks very much like a typical Kan.


Thank you. 6.0-0 is indeed challenging. 6... d6 7. d4 cxd4 8. Nxd4 b6 9. Be3 Bb7 10. f3 Be7
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looks interesting, but I miss 2500+ players in this line. The Aronian - Papp game brought in from ErictheRed shows one problem of 6... Nc6.
  

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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #24 - 01/26/20 at 23:25:09
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ErictheRed wrote on 01/24/20 at 21:50:18:
You do seem to be ignoring some good advice that you've already received, though.  You also seem intent on being s "Kan player," thinking that you must strive to play the Kan and only the Kan whenever possible.


You are offensive.

Neither do I ignore the advice here nor do I think of myself as a Kan player. There is some advice here I like and will work with. Your advice was neither good advice nor directed to the question asked. In consequence of your misconception your comments with matters of course are as helpful as talking about something completely different, what you do indeed. And far from witty as the series this quote comes from.

What I want to do is learning for the first time an open sicilian. As one system is enough workload for some years I try to reduce alternatives as good as possible and hints to strategic ideas in case I have to avoid this system. Maybe be I'm no chess player, as you write implicitly. Surely you didn't understand what I asked for. So rethink your answers or change your style!!! Embarrassed
  

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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #23 - 01/25/20 at 05:22:08
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 01/25/20 at 04:09:03:
Since your intended Kan line is
(A) 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 a6 5.c4 Nf6 6.Nc3 Qc7

I think you could actually get away with the following "Kramnik" line:
(B) 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 a6 4.Nc3 Qc7 5.Be2 Nf6.

(B1) 6.d4 is the only move in Lutes, but 6...cxd4 7.Nxd4 is no problem for you. It transposes to (A) with 7.Be2, but what do you play now? Is it 7...Bb4 perhaps?

(B2) 6.O-O is subtler, now I believe 6...Nc6 is still best. After 7.d4 cxd4 8.Nxd4 it's true white has avoided (A) and (B1), but black is probably still okay, at least not worse off than in your intended Kan line. The database offers 13 (!) different moves for black. Most active is 8...Bb4 when the plausible 9.Nxc6 dxc6 looks very much like a typical Kan.


I don't think that it's that simple.  First, White might try 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 a6 4.Nc3 Qc7 5.g3!?, which looks interesting given that Black has combined ...a6 and ...Qc7 so early. 

More directly, what happens after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 a6 4.Nc3 Qc7 5.Be2 Nf6 6.0-0 is an important question.  If 6...Nc6, then 7.d4! cd 8.Nxd4 and I believe that White maintains at least a slight edge.  He has transposed to a position that normally arises via the Kan move order,
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 a6 5. c4 Nf6 6. Nc3 Qc7 7. Be2 Nc6 8. O-O. 

* * * * * * * *
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*

The problem (for Black) is, going back to the position after 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 a6 5. c4 Nf6 6. Nc3 Qc7 7. Be2,

* * * * * * * *
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7...Nc6 is considered inferior to 7...Bb4, and possibly inferior to 7...b6, 7...Be7, maybe even 7...d6 as well.  After 7...Nc6 8.0-0 Bb4 (as you proposed by the "Kramnik Sicilian" move order), White probably has an edge after 9.Bg5 or 9.Nxc6.  9.Na4!? is also leaves Black with some problems to solve. 

Here's one older game (PGN doesn't seem to be embedding):
[Event "Wch U20"]
[Site "Athens"]
[Date "2001.08.19"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Aronian, Levon"]
[Black "Papp, Gabor"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B41"]
[WhiteElo "2562"]
[BlackElo "2291"]
[PlyCount "59"]
[EventDate "2001.08.16"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. c4 Nc6 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. Be2 a6 6. O-O Qc7 7. d4 cxd4 8. Nxd4
Bb4 9. Nxc6 dxc6 10. Be3 O-O 11. Qc2 e5 12. Na4 Be7 13. Nb6 Rb8 14. Nxc8 Rbxc8
15. c5 h6 16. g3 Rcd8 17. b4 Rfe8 18. h4 Nd7 19. Bc4 Nf8 20. f4 exf4 21. Bxf4
Qc8 22. Bd6 Ne6 23. e5 Bxd6 24. exd6 b6 25. Rxf7 Kxf7 26. Qh7 Rxd6 27. cxd6 Kf6
28. Rf1+ Ke5 29. d7 Qxd7 30. Qf5+ 1-0



  
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #22 - 01/25/20 at 04:09:03
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Since your intended Kan line is
(A) 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 a6 5.c4 Nf6 6.Nc3 Qc7

I think you could actually get away with the following "Kramnik" line:
(B) 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 a6 4.Nc3 Qc7 5.Be2 Nf6.

(B1) 6.d4 is the only move in Lutes, but 6...cxd4 7.Nxd4 is no problem for you. It transposes to (A) with 7.Be2, but what do you play now? Is it 7...Bb4 perhaps?

(B2) 6.O-O is subtler, now I believe 6...Nc6 is still best. After 7.d4 cxd4 8.Nxd4 it's true white has avoided (A) and (B1), but black is probably still okay, at least not worse off than in your intended Kan line. The database offers 13 (!) different moves for black. Most active is 8...Bb4 when the plausible 9.Nxc6 dxc6 looks very much like a typical Kan.
  
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #21 - 01/24/20 at 21:50:18
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I'm not being offensive.  I mean that you are asking a repertoire question (what to play after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4), and like all repertoire questions, eventually you must answer it for yourself.  You may seek advice and have a discussion, but ultimately the choice is yours. 

You do seem to be ignoring some good advice that you've already received, though.  You also seem intent on being s "Kan player," thinking that you must strive to play the Kan and only the Kan whenever possible.  This kind of thinking is a mistake!  Your opponent can always avoid your main defense.  He could play 1.d4, 1.c4, 1.Nf3, 1.g3...he could play the Alapin, the Closed Sicilian, the Grand Prix, 2.Nge2; none of these are the Kan.  After 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4, accept that you may not be able to play the Kan either, depending on how White continues.

Accept that you are not a Kan player, but a chess player.  Look at the position on the board and decide what moves you want to play without worrying about the names that those moves are attached to.
  
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #20 - 01/24/20 at 15:56:16
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ErictheRed wrote on 01/23/20 at 18:18:32:
Just think critically about the actual position on the board and decide whether you are happy with it or not, not whether it is a "Kan" or "Taimanov."  Answer the question for yourself.


The concrete position is one side. The other side is learning and understanding and the way to get the content. You must know a lot about sicilians to advice looking at the concrete position only.

Huh Probably not meant so the last sentence is a bit offending. Does this need an explanation? If yes, I will answer to an according question.
  

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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #19 - 01/23/20 at 18:18:32
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Just think critically about the actual position on the board and decide whether you are happy with it or not, not whether it is a "Kan" or "Taimanov."  Answer the question for yourself.

  
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #18 - 01/23/20 at 16:29:07
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@ErictheRed

I cannot answer this is question as I play 6... Qc7 and after 7.Bd3 Nc6. Then I'm happy with a6.
  

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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #17 - 01/18/20 at 23:59:47
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Jupp53 wrote on 01/18/20 at 10:32:40:
@stockhausen

To correct this: I'm worried to be move-ordered as black into the Taimanov.


OK, you think of yourself as a Kan player, so presumably you have the line 3.d4 cd 4.Nxd4 a6 5.c4 Nf6 6.Nc3 Bb4 in your repertoire.  Would you honestly rather have ...a6 than ...Nc6 on the board in that position?
  
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #16 - 01/18/20 at 19:43:59
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I gave the Paulsen / O'Kelly line, but nowhere did I say that black should play that way. That idea was just in your imagination. See also reply #7 where I advocated for 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 Nc6.
  
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #15 - 01/18/20 at 18:27:11
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Jupp53 wrote on 01/18/20 at 10:32:40:
To correct this: I'm worried to be move-ordered as black into the Taimanov.


I understand this, but I'm just pointing out that I don't see why being move ordered as black into the O'Kelly as suggested in #5 would solve your problem.
  
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #14 - 01/18/20 at 10:32:40
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@stockhausen

To correct this: I'm worried to be move-ordered as black into the Taimanov.
  

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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #13 - 01/15/20 at 17:18:17
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 01/06/20 at 20:48:50:
Lutes (1993) Sicilian Defense: O'Kelly Variation has substantial coverage of 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 a6, via the move order 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 a6 3.c4 e6. I don't have the book in front of me, but very plausible is 4.Nc3 Qc7 5.Be2 Nf6 6.O-O ... White can wait quite a bit before playing d2-d4. This 3.c4 move order might trouble black, depending on the intended plan after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 a6 5.c4.


If the OP is worried about being move ordered into a bad line of the Taimanov for white, surely he would be more worried about being move ordered into a bad line of the O'Kelly Sicilian for black?
  
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #12 - 01/11/20 at 01:50:50
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Glenn Snow wrote on 01/10/20 at 22:45:18:
[quote author=6C5356561315260 link=1578181289/0#0 date=1578181289]

I don't currently have a chesspublishing.com membership but still found eight games with 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4.  Also Kaufman's new repertoire for White and Black covers this as an alternative for White instead of his main recommendation of 3.c3.


Yes. I first looked only at the pdf-files. Meanwhile I downloaded the commented games and found those 8 games too. Pardon for my mistake. Should have done this earlier.

Thank you for the hint to Kaufman.

This topic helped me to get enough games and comments to look at. Maybe I will give feedback about that, if it could be of some use for the readers of this forum (what I doubt in advance, to be honest).
  

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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #11 - 01/10/20 at 22:45:18
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Jupp53 wrote on 01/04/20 at 23:41:29:
There is no treatment of the Kramnik-line of the e6 sicilian in the commented games. Is there any book giving a useful review for a player around 2000 who never played 1.c4 himself and doesn't know much about the resulting structures?

It is 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4

Main move is 3... Nc6, which is a little annoying for me. I'm learning Kan setups and Nc6 are Taimanov lines. Chessbase has over 3500 games in his Megabase.

Should I send this to Tony?


I don't currently have a chesspublishing.com membership but still found eight games with 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4.  Also Kaufman's new repertoire for White and Black covers this as an alternative for White instead of his main recommendation of 3.c3.
  
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #10 - 01/07/20 at 14:14:28
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I came to think about van Kampen's videos on chess24, and he actually recommends 1.e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. c4 Nc6 4. Nc3 Nd4!?, thus also giving an alternative to 4...e5
  
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #9 - 01/07/20 at 08:56:47
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Jupp53 wrote on 01/06/20 at 20:20:49:
Maybe - the main problem: With 3... Nc6 I'm move ordered out of the Kan. This means I have to learn another Sicilian. After 3... d6 White may play d4 or not and these are complete different structures.

The books don't discuss this according to my search. The 1.c4 move orders don't discuss this, neither do the Kan books. Having to learn the Taimanov is a big task when not having learned the Kan yet properly. The Kan alone is something for more than a year.


I have played the Kan for a long time now, and I agree, this can potentially be a tricky move order. But I don't think you should be afraid of playing 3...Nc6, Black is doing alright after that and you don't have to learn the whole Taimanov complex (although it actually helps to study that one too as sometimes ...Nc6 simply is the best move).

The line mentioned by BadDays is the one also Delchev and Semkov recommend in the Most Flexible Sicilian (which is about both the Kan and Taimanov). I am quite sure it is also analyzed in their earlier book The Safest Sicilian, although I can't find my copy. The key move is 6...Bb4 as already mentioned above by both Ordinary and BadDays. There is an old game, Kramnik-Kasparov, 1994, in this variation (because I don't have the book here, I can't check if it is in the Safest Sicilian and the comments although I think it is there). Kasparov made a mistake by not taking on c3. Have a look at it.

D&S give the line Ordinary mentions above, with 4. Nc3 e5. If you don't like it, 3...Nc6 might indeed be a problem for you as a Kan-player. But it is fine, and I suggest you should look into 3...Nc6, and not just go for a system approach i.e. all the time going for ...b7-b5 and ...Nbd7, because this setup is not always the best for Black.
« Last Edit: 01/07/20 at 14:52:09 by fling »  
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #8 - 01/07/20 at 03:35:52
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Lutes (1993) Sicilian Defense O'Kelly Variation pages 109-133

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 a6 3.c4 e6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Nf6 6.Nc3
  • 6...Qc7 pages 109-113 : 7.Be2, 7.Nc2, 7.a3, 7.Bd3, 7.Be3
  • 6...d6 pages 114-119 : 7.Bd3, 7.Be2, 7.g3
  • 6...Bb4! pages 120-130


1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 a6 3.c4 e6 4.Nc3 pages 131-133
  • 4...Nc6 5.d4 cxd4 6.Nxd4 Bb4 (6...Bc5)
  • 4...Qc7 5.d4 cxd4 6.Nxd4 Nf6 7.a3 (compare pages 109-113)

Sources quoted by Lutes on pages 109-133, not counting Informators:
  • Euwe (1961) Theorie der Schacheröffnungen Teil XI pages 116-122
  • Schwarz (1966) Handbuch der Schach-Eröffnungen, Band 23 pages 406, 489
  • Boleslavski (1968) Caro-Kann bis Sizilianische pages 318-324, 454
  • Pachman (1969) Semi-Open Games pages 197-207
  • Keene/Blackstock (1974) Sicilian Defence 3: Unusual Second Moves for Black, page 27
  • Borik (1981) Tidskrift för Schack (missing from Lutes's bibliography)
  • Taimanov (1984) Encyclopedia of Chess Openings, vol. B, pages 242-249
  • Estrin (1986) Kleine Schach-Eröffnungens-Enzyklopädie, Band II pages 464-467
  • Jap. van de Kooij (1991) "Siciliaans: O'Kelly-Beverwijkervariant", Schaak! no. 132 pages 3-9, 15

Edited:
Beverwijkervariant not Berverwijkervariant
« Last Edit: 01/07/20 at 18:01:09 by an ordinary chessplayer »  
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #7 - 01/06/20 at 23:15:52
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1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 Nc6 does not yet risk an actual Taimanov, provided you are willing to play 4.Nc3 e5. The point is that 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 lands white in a sub-optimal variation of the Taimanov: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.c4.

After 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6, the only real tries for advantage are 5.Nc3 and 5.Nb5 d6 6.c4. Black has to know some theory against those moves. I don't think 5.c4 is actually dubious, but certainly black can play actively with 5...Nf6 6.Nc3 Bb4, and looking in the database black is quite alright. It wouldn't take much preparation for black to play this way with confidence.

So, going back to 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4, as long as you don't mind 3...Nc6 4.Nc3 e5, you can certainly play 3...Nc6. But if you don't like 4...e5, you will have to think hard about whether to play 3...Nc6.
  
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #6 - 01/06/20 at 21:18:56
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Thank you.
  

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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #5 - 01/06/20 at 20:48:50
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Lutes (1993) Sicilian Defense: O'Kelly Variation has substantial coverage of 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 a6, via the move order 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 a6 3.c4 e6. I don't have the book in front of me, but very plausible is 4.Nc3 Qc7 5.Be2 Nf6 6.O-O ... White can wait quite a bit before playing d2-d4. This 3.c4 move order might trouble black, depending on the intended plan after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 a6 5.c4.
  
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #4 - 01/06/20 at 20:20:49
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Maybe - the main problem: With 3... Nc6 I'm move ordered out of the Kan. This means I have to learn another Sicilian. After 3... d6 White may play d4 or not and these are complete different structures.

The books don't discuss this according to my search. The 1.c4 move orders don't discuss this, neither do the Kan books. Having to learn the Taimanov is a big task when not having learned the Kan yet properly. The Kan alone is something for more than a year.
  

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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #3 - 01/06/20 at 17:18:06
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Naiditsch is at least equal for most of that game and should probably just play 16...Nd4 =+. There are other improvements as well. The point of 4...e5 seems to be to get a typical Botvinnik center with a quick ...f5, taking advantage of the delayed development of the Ng8. Black can also consider 4...Nd4, which scores well according to my database. This line is fairly non-critical, so it will be hard to find extensive annotations. Perhaps a general analysis of Botvinnik structures will be helpful here. Google is your friend in that case.

More critical is 4.d4. In his recent book on the Taimanov, GM Pavlidis recommends 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 Nc6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Nf6 6.Nc3 Bb4 7.Nxc6 bxc6 8.Bd3 e5 which indeed looks very pleasant to me. Black should not rush with ...d5, since opening the center would activate the silly Bd3.
  
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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #2 - 01/05/20 at 20:29:53
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I'm bothered from having to play Nc6 in move three. The pretty easy equality is something I cannot see, probably from a lack of knowledge. As I have never played this type of position I want to have some commented games how to play this. This would help my further search.
B.e.:
Atm I have searched in my db ten GM games from 3... Nc6 on and they are hard to understand for me. For not to start with Carlsen and Caruana this is one example. Black choses the setup with e5 and f5. In Naiditsch,A - Perunovic,M, Hungary 2014, see annotation, White wins easily.

  

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Re: Kramnik Sicilian
Reply #1 - 01/05/20 at 02:53:59
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As far as I know the position after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 Nc6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Nf6 6.Nc3 Bb4 is a completely harmless line of the Taimanov/English. If White does not go for d4, then you should have pretty easy equality with natural moves. Is there a particular move order that bothers you?
  
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Kramnik Sicilian
01/04/20 at 23:41:29
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There is no treatment of the Kramnik-line of the e6 sicilian in the commented games. Is there any book giving a useful review for a player around 2000 who never played 1.c4 himself and doesn't know much about the resulting structures?

It is 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4

Main move is 3... Nc6, which is a little annoying for me. I'm learning Kan setups and Nc6 are Taimanov lines. Chessbase has over 3500 games in his Megabase.

Should I send this to Tony?
  

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