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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Soltis 13.Bg5 Nc4 really that bad? (Read 1580 times)
XChess1971
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Re: Soltis 13.Bg5 Nc4 really that bad?
Reply #19 - 02/21/20 at 11:51:32
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Well I thought somebody would take a look into that. But I guess I have to do a closer inspection myself. For starters I believed that the move 17.Bh6 could work better because there is no intermezzo ...Nxe4. The d4 knight is defended by the rook d1. But, on 17.Bh6 black responds 17...Bxh6 18.Qxh6 Qc7 19.Kb1 Rc8 20.Rd3 Rc5 21.g4 hxg4 22.h5 Rxh5 23.Rxh5 gxh5 24.Nd5 Nxd5 25.exd5 (25.Qg5+ Kf8 26.Qh6+ Kg8 with a draw.) 25...Bf5 26.Qg5+ Bg6 27.fxg4 h4 28.Rc3 Qd7 with equality.

Still I think there are different options to be investigated. One of them is 17.Kb1. And even previously. But I guess we all have to do a lot of homework!
« Last Edit: 02/22/20 at 04:24:11 by XChess1971 »  
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Mikhail_Golubev
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Re: Soltis 13.Bg5 Nc4 really that bad?
Reply #18 - 02/20/20 at 17:16:44
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XChess1971 wrote on 02/11/20 at 16:32:18:
I wondered about 14.Qd3 Ne5 15.Qe3 Nc4 16.Bxc4 Rxc4 if this position would favor white, and if any improvement is needed for black? Also it will be white's turn next. So he wins a tempo!

well, but what exactly is a problem for Black in this line with a white queen on e3?
  
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XChess1971
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Re: Soltis 13.Bg5 Nc4 really that bad?
Reply #17 - 02/11/20 at 16:32:18
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Mikhail_Golubev wrote on 02/10/20 at 05:46:38:
13...Nc4 looks playable as of now. It looks like Miles, Mestel and then others (including me) underestimated 15...Rxc3 in the line 14.Qe2 Na5 15.Kb1. It appears that Black may have enough compensation in this kind of positions even having the knight on a5 (and not on e5), what is not obvious because there's no plan with ...a7-a5-a4, in particular.
Sometimes, I'm playing this line in blitz these days. Nothing theoretically important, I guess. E.g.,
Ladron De Guevara Pinto,Paolo - Golubev,Mikhail [B78]
Chess.com Titled Tuesday Blitz 3+2 (3), 02.07.2019
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Bc4 0–0 9.Qd2 Bd7 10.h4 Ne5 11.Bb3 Rc8 12.0–0–0 h5 13.Bg5 Nc4 14.Bxc4 Rxc4 15.Nde2 Qa5 16.Bh6 Bxh6 17.Qxh6 Rfc8 18.g4 Rxc3 19.Nxc3 Rxc3 20.bxc3 Qxc3 21.gxh5 Ba4 22.Rh2 Qa1+ 23.Kd2 Qd4+ 24.Kc1 Qa1+ 25.Kd2 Qd4+ 26.Kc1 Qa1+ 1/2


I wondered about 14.Qd3 Ne5 15.Qe3 Nc4 16.Bxc4 Rxc4 if this position would favor white, and if any improvement is needed for black? Also it will be white's turn next. So he wins a tempo!
  
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Mikhail_Golubev
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Re: Soltis 13.Bg5 Nc4 really that bad?
Reply #16 - 02/10/20 at 05:46:38
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13...Nc4 looks playable as of now. It looks like Miles, Mestel and then others (including me) underestimated 15...Rxc3 in the line 14.Qe2 Na5 15.Kb1. It appears that Black may have enough compensation in this kind of positions even having the knight on a5 (and not on e5), what is not obvious because there's no plan with ...a7-a5-a4, in particular.
Sometimes, I'm playing this line in blitz these days. Nothing theoretically important, I guess. E.g.,
Ladron De Guevara Pinto,Paolo - Golubev,Mikhail [B78]
Chess.com Titled Tuesday Blitz 3+2 (3), 02.07.2019
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Bc4 0–0 9.Qd2 Bd7 10.h4 Ne5 11.Bb3 Rc8 12.0–0–0 h5 13.Bg5 Nc4 14.Bxc4 Rxc4 15.Nde2 Qa5 16.Bh6 Bxh6 17.Qxh6 Rfc8 18.g4 Rxc3 19.Nxc3 Rxc3 20.bxc3 Qxc3 21.gxh5 Ba4 22.Rh2 Qa1+ 23.Kd2 Qd4+ 24.Kc1 Qa1+ 25.Kd2 Qd4+ 26.Kc1 Qa1+ 1/2
  
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halbstark
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Re: Soltis 13.Bg5 Nc4 really that bad?
Reply #15 - 01/10/20 at 09:04:18
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Glenn Snow wrote on 01/09/20 at 19:20:26:
I looked in Golubev's Easy Guide to the Dragon book and he gave 14.Qe2 Na5 15.Kb1 Rxc3 16.bxc3 Qc7, which seems playable but not as good as your 16...Qb6!.  For what it's worth he mentioned that 13...Re8 hasn't been refuted. (Of course that book is 21 years old so maybe it has now.)


Thanks a lot for checking that! Those "old" refutations are what I was looking forward to. The fact, that one of the lines known to be critical can be easily improved for black, gives me some confidence to play 13...Nc4 in my next tournament game Wink

TonyRo wrote on 01/08/20 at 20:39:57:
Yes, I saw this thread and got a little inspired to look at my old favorite again, and this is the line where I started. I came to the same conclusion I think (at least for now), so it's time to start elsewhere, probably with 14.Bxc4 Rxc4 and then maybe 15.Qd3.

Now if someone could just find something more excited and decent against 9.O-O-O. Cheesy


yeah, 9.0-0-0 is indeed annoying. My own approach is to vary as much as possible between my lines against the Bd4-line. I don´t think that the traditional ...e5-move is bad in a practical sense, but you clearly shouldn´t risk going down one of the main lines, if White has enough reason und time to learn the right move orders til move 20.
  
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Re: Soltis 13.Bg5 Nc4 really that bad?
Reply #14 - 01/09/20 at 19:20:26
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halbstark wrote on 01/08/20 at 19:52:50:
XChess1971 wrote on 01/08/20 at 02:05:07:
The point of putting the knight on "e5" is to keep an eye on your king, eye g4 breaks. Also support a possible counter attack. Depending on what white plays you want to deploy your pieces. It is pretty curious that in the Soltis once white plays 13.Kb1 13...Nc4 looks to be a good move. While if played 12.Kb1 (Instead of 12.h4) Nc4 doesn't seem to get the job done. That's why people prefer to deviate into the Topalov nowadays.
You need to have a very strong justification to jump around with the queen's knight. Otherwise you could get busted!


In the end it is all about concrete lines in the Dragon. Obviously you can try to explain in words, why the Burnett is worse for black than the 13.Kb1-Soltis, but the main reason IMHO is, that Stockfish shows a white advantage in the one line and not in the other Cheesy
To play Nc4 is a pretty typical idea in the dragon, I think we would both agree on that. In the concrete position there are even some very concrete reasons, why it might work out for black:
After 14.Bxc4 Rxc4 you are immediatily threatening Nxe4 or Nxg4, because d4 is not protected by the bishop on e3. And if White plays 15.Nb3 or Nde2, I see no reason, why it should not be an improved version of the 13.Kb1-Soltis.
After 14.Qd3 it seems, that 14...Na5 is indeed quite risky for black. But even if black is willing to repeat with 14...Ne5, I think objectively there is no better move for White than 15.Qd2. Obviously 15.Qe3 is an option, but 15...Nc4 16.Bxc4 Rxc4 seems to be at least as fine as the immediate 14.Bxc4 Rxc4. I guess having the queen on e3 instead of d2 has pros and cons, but I see no reasons, why black should be afraid of this option.

The last option (and it seems the main line) is 14.Qe2. After ...Na5 15.Kb1!?black has the strong 15...Rxc3 16.bxc3 Qb6!, which seems to be fine according to SF (eval=0,00) and correspondence chess. There seems to be a lot to discover and I would rather play these "fresh" positions instead of the 35-move-deep-theoretical lines, where White can prepare dangerous stuff for a single game and the slightest slip might cost you the game.


I looked in Golubev's Easy Guide to the Dragon book and he gave 14.Qe2 Na5 15.Kb1 Rxc3 16.bxc3 Qc7, which seems playable but not as good as your 16...Qb6!.  For what it's worth he mentioned that 13...Re8 hasn't been refuted. (Of course that book is 21 years old so maybe it has now.)
  
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MNb
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Re: Soltis 13.Bg5 Nc4 really that bad?
Reply #13 - 01/09/20 at 17:12:30
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I've said it before and I say it again - you can have both chicken and cow.

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e5.
1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nge2 (3.Nf3) g6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 and you get all the equise parts of the cow.  Tongue
  

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Re: Soltis 13.Bg5 Nc4 really that bad?
Reply #12 - 01/09/20 at 17:07:06
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MNb wrote on 01/09/20 at 06:53:51:
The Kalashnikov?!  Wink

Definitely. But you eat chicken for 6 years, eventually you need some cow! Cheesy
  
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Re: Soltis 13.Bg5 Nc4 really that bad?
Reply #11 - 01/09/20 at 06:53:51
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TonyRo wrote on 01/08/20 at 20:39:57:
Now if someone could just find something more excited and decent against 9.O-O-O. Cheesy

The Kalashnikov?!  Wink
  

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Re: Soltis 13.Bg5 Nc4 really that bad?
Reply #10 - 01/08/20 at 20:39:57
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halbstark wrote on 01/08/20 at 19:52:50:
The last option (and it seems the main line) is 14.Qe2. After ...Na5 15.Kb1!?black has the strong 15...Rxc3 16.bxc3 Qb6!, which seems to be fine according to SF (eval=0,00) and correspondence chess. There seems to be a lot to discover and I would rather play these "fresh" positions instead of the 35-move-deep-theoretical lines, where White can prepare dangerous stuff for a single game and the slightest slip might cost you the game.


Yes, I saw this thread and got a little inspired to look at my old favorite again, and this is the line where I started. I came to the same conclusion I think (at least for now), so it's time to start elsewhere, probably with 14.Bxc4 Rxc4 and then maybe 15.Qd3.

Now if someone could just find something more excited and decent against 9.O-O-O. Cheesy
  
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Re: Soltis 13.Bg5 Nc4 really that bad?
Reply #9 - 01/08/20 at 19:52:50
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XChess1971 wrote on 01/08/20 at 02:05:07:
The point of putting the knight on "e5" is to keep an eye on your king, eye g4 breaks. Also support a possible counter attack. Depending on what white plays you want to deploy your pieces. It is pretty curious that in the Soltis once white plays 13.Kb1 13...Nc4 looks to be a good move. While if played 12.Kb1 (Instead of 12.h4) Nc4 doesn't seem to get the job done. That's why people prefer to deviate into the Topalov nowadays.
You need to have a very strong justification to jump around with the queen's knight. Otherwise you could get busted!


In the end it is all about concrete lines in the Dragon. Obviously you can try to explain in words, why the Burnett is worse for black than the 13.Kb1-Soltis, but the main reason IMHO is, that Stockfish shows a white advantage in the one line and not in the other Cheesy
To play Nc4 is a pretty typical idea in the dragon, I think we would both agree on that. In the concrete position there are even some very concrete reasons, why it might work out for black:
After 14.Bxc4 Rxc4 you are immediatily threatening Nxe4 or Nxg4, because d4 is not protected by the bishop on e3. And if White plays 15.Nb3 or Nde2, I see no reason, why it should not be an improved version of the 13.Kb1-Soltis.
After 14.Qd3 it seems, that 14...Na5 is indeed quite risky for black. But even if black is willing to repeat with 14...Ne5, I think objectively there is no better move for White than 15.Qd2. Obviously 15.Qe3 is an option, but 15...Nc4 16.Bxc4 Rxc4 seems to be at least as fine as the immediate 14.Bxc4 Rxc4. I guess having the queen on e3 instead of d2 has pros and cons, but I see no reasons, why black should be afraid of this option.

The last option (and it seems the main line) is 14.Qe2. After ...Na5 15.Kb1!?black has the strong 15...Rxc3 16.bxc3 Qb6!, which seems to be fine according to SF (eval=0,00) and correspondence chess. There seems to be a lot to discover and I would rather play these "fresh" positions instead of the 35-move-deep-theoretical lines, where White can prepare dangerous stuff for a single game and the slightest slip might cost you the game.
  
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Re: Soltis 13.Bg5 Nc4 really that bad?
Reply #8 - 01/08/20 at 12:53:23
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I wanna see my Nc6 on xb2 or trade against Bb3 and it hurts me to trade against Nd4, that's why I still analyse the Burnett line.
  

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XChess1971
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Re: Soltis 13.Bg5 Nc4 really that bad?
Reply #7 - 01/08/20 at 02:05:07
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The point of putting the knight on "e5" is to keep an eye on your king, eye g4 breaks. Also support a possible counter attack. Depending on what white plays you want to deploy your pieces. It is pretty curious that in the Soltis once white plays 13.Kb1 13...Nc4 looks to be a good move. While if played 12.Kb1 (Instead of 12.h4) Nc4 doesn't seem to get the job done. That's why people prefer to deviate into the Topalov nowadays.
You need to have a very strong justification to jump around with the queen's knight. Otherwise you could get busted!
  
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Re: Soltis 13.Bg5 Nc4 really that bad?
Reply #6 - 01/07/20 at 23:55:42
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halbstark wrote on 01/06/20 at 11:37:16:
mn wrote on 01/06/20 at 01:15:42:
This reminds me of an idea that my friend and I analyzed about six years ago, which was 12...Na5!?. Maybe this is worth looking into as well. At the time we concluded it was a pretty decent line, but I don't have any of the analysis anymore and I have no idea how well any of it holds up. Black can play either ...Nc4 or ...Nxb3 dependent on what White does. 13 Bg5 would transpose to the position after 12...Ne5 13 Bg5 Nc4 14 Qe2 (for example) 14...Na5, if White tried to go back with 15 Qd2. 13 Bh6 Nc4 as far as I know is supposed to be an okay line of the Soltis for Black. 13 g4 must be critical, but I'm not sure how good it is. Anyway, I've been checking out the Accelerated Dragon lately and was looking at ways to meet 5 Nc3 etc. with the ...Nxd4/...b5 (without ...Rc8) system while avoiding the main line Soltis theory after the early h4. I'd be interested to follow any further discussion, and apologies that this post isn't entirely on topic.



No need to apologize:) I am always happy to hear about creative ideas in the dragon. I just checked the opening book I extracted from a correspondence database and it seems, that 12...Na5 13.g4 is a huge problem for black- at least for correspondence standards.

One pretty convincing victory, if Black goes for 13...Nxb3:
https://share.chessbase.com/SharedGames/game/?p=gXI00GWtIGntl8Oge1M+shetEM+7AfMX...

I just clicked through some other options for black, but on first glance this line looks pretty busted Sad


That's a shame to hear. I don't have a correspondence database, what does yours say about this line with ...Nc4?
  
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halbstark
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Re: Soltis 13.Bg5 Nc4 really that bad?
Reply #5 - 01/07/20 at 22:46:19
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gewgaw wrote on 01/06/20 at 18:50:39:
Of course, we can debate about this line, but actually there are no problems in this line for Black after Rc5.

What worries me more is:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cd4 4.Nd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 0-0 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Rc8 11.Bb3 Ne5 12.Kb1 Nc4 13.Bc4 Rc4 14.g4 b5 15.b3 b4 16.bc4 bc3 17.Qc3 Qc7 18.Rd3!? - which wasn't analysed by Jones and is the first choice by Stockfish.


Yeah, I haven´t too much faith in this Burnett variation for black. Both 15.b3 and 15.h4 are enough reason for me to avoid it. Black might have enough resources not to be lost by force, but it seems to be quite a struggle to survive. Luckily for us, the Topalov and the Chinese Dragon seem to hold up quiet nicely (and I would rather go for some of the Qa5-setups than for the Burnett Smiley )

I agree about the 13...Rc5-move in the Soltis. Should be fine objectively. But there is so much theory and I was looking for a shortcut:D And I was just surprised, that Stockfish showed me no clear path to an advantage. In my mind I always thought, that 13...Nc4 is more or less refuted- and maybe it is, but my old laptop lacks some bruteforce power when it comes to analysing sharp variations:D
  
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