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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Soltis 13.Bg5 Nc4 really that bad? (Read 8830 times)
MNb
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Re: Soltis 13.Bg5 Nc4 really that bad?
Reply #4 - 01/07/20 at 17:53:47
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This nicely can be avoided (I'm referring to a thread about the Maroczy) by 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 g6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.Bc4 O-O 8.Bb3 d6 9.f3 Bd7 10.h4 (10.Qd2 Nxd4 11.Bxd4 b5 or even Na5, heading for a Chinese Dragon) h5 11.Qd2 Ne5 and we're back at the Soltis.
  
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gewgaw
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Re: Soltis 13.Bg5 Nc4 really that bad?
Reply #3 - 01/06/20 at 18:50:39
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Of course, we can debate about this line, but actually there are no problems in this line for Black after Rc5.

What worries me more is:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cd4 4.Nd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 0-0 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Rc8 11.Bb3 Ne5 12.Kb1 Nc4 13.Bc4 Rc4 14.g4 b5 15.b3 b4 16.bc4 bc3 17.Qc3 Qc7 18.Rd3!? - which wasn't analysed by Jones and is the first choice by Stockfish.
  
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halbstark
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Re: Soltis 13.Bg5 Nc4 really that bad?
Reply #2 - 01/06/20 at 11:37:16
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fdunne wrote on 01/06/20 at 01:15:42:
This reminds me of an idea that my friend and I analyzed about six years ago, which was 12...Na5!?. Maybe this is worth looking into as well. At the time we concluded it was a pretty decent line, but I don't have any of the analysis anymore and I have no idea how well any of it holds up. Black can play either ...Nc4 or ...Nxb3 dependent on what White does. 13 Bg5 would transpose to the position after 12...Ne5 13 Bg5 Nc4 14 Qe2 (for example) 14...Na5, if White tried to go back with 15 Qd2. 13 Bh6 Nc4 as far as I know is supposed to be an okay line of the Soltis for Black. 13 g4 must be critical, but I'm not sure how good it is. Anyway, I've been checking out the Accelerated Dragon lately and was looking at ways to meet 5 Nc3 etc. with the ...Nxd4/...b5 (without ...Rc8) system while avoiding the main line Soltis theory after the early h4. I'd be interested to follow any further discussion, and apologies that this post isn't entirely on topic.



No need to apologize:) I am always happy to hear about creative ideas in the dragon. I just checked the opening book I extracted from a correspondence database and it seems, that 12...Na5 13.g4 is a huge problem for black- at least for correspondence standards.

One pretty convincing victory, if Black goes for 13...Nxb3:
https://share.chessbase.com/SharedGames/game/?p=gXI00GWtIGntl8Oge1M+shetEM+7AfMX...

I just clicked through some other options for black, but on first glance this line looks pretty busted Sad
  
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fdunne
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Re: Soltis 13.Bg5 Nc4 really that bad?
Reply #1 - 01/06/20 at 01:15:42
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This reminds me of an idea that my friend and I analyzed about six years ago, which was 12...Na5!?. Maybe this is worth looking into as well. At the time we concluded it was a pretty decent line, but I don't have any of the analysis anymore and I have no idea how well any of it holds up. Black can play either ...Nc4 or ...Nxb3 dependent on what White does. 13 Bg5 would transpose to the position after 12...Ne5 13 Bg5 Nc4 14 Qe2 (for example) 14...Na5, if White tried to go back with 15 Qd2. 13 Bh6 Nc4 as far as I know is supposed to be an okay line of the Soltis for Black. 13 g4 must be critical, but I'm not sure how good it is. Anyway, I've been checking out the Accelerated Dragon lately and was looking at ways to meet 5 Nc3 etc. with the ...Nxd4/...b5 (without ...Rc8) system while avoiding the main line Soltis theory after the early h4. I'd be interested to follow any further discussion, and apologies that this post isn't entirely on topic.
  
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halbstark
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Soltis 13.Bg5 Nc4 really that bad?
01/05/20 at 11:48:31
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Hi guys,

for decades it is known, that in the absolute mainline of the Soltis after 1.e4 c5.2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.h4 h5 11.0-0-0 Rc8 12.Bb3 Ne5 13.Bg5 black should absolutily go for 13...Rc5. A pretty instructive move. Black prepares some exchange sacrifices on d5 or g5, while also preparing b5. There is a lot of theory here and black seems to be holding with best play.

But is there a clear refutation for the standard 13...Nc4? I have Jones´ books and he is not talking about it at all. With the bishop on g5 White is not forced to take on c4 (still a reasonable move), but can also play 14.Qe2 or Qd3. The idea for black is to go 14...Na5, being prepared to get rid of the strong bishop on b3 and after 14.Qe2 you also have the typical idea of going Rxc3. It seems somehow slow for black, but without the white queen on the c1-h6 diagonal, there is no Bh6 for white in near future.

If White plays 14.Bxc4 Rxc4 you reach a typical variation, in which White has normally played Kb1 instead of Bg5. Seems to be not too bad for black in comparison.

Any ideas, why 13...Nc4 is considered to be inferior to 13..Rc5?

Thanks in advance!
halbstark
  
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