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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Playing the Petroff by Dhopade (Read 11324 times)
TopNotch
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #91 - 08/25/20 at 20:50:40
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mn wrote on 07/27/20 at 01:28:36:
I've yet to be shown what's wrong with 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 d4 Nxe4 4 Bd3 Nc6.

I think the main reason why I don't play the Petroff more than occasionally in blitz is the big modern main line with [1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nxe5 d6 4 Nf3 Nxe4] 5 Nc3. It seems like all the lines that give Black chances to win are extremely risky.


I used to play this line a lot as White and never found anything earth shattering against 4...Nc6!?, it should definitely be taken seriously and you are right that theory does not give a clear answer for White, in fact most sources fail to cover it whilst the ones that do are usually outdated and give unconvincing analysis. Best thing that White can do for ideas is check what Tiviakov and Rublesky have played against this line and if necessary attempt to improve upon it.   
  

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gwnn
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #90 - 08/25/20 at 06:39:00
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I probably did not explain myself very well. Obviously, lots of shocking moves are so because they are bad. Nc6 is not bad, which makes it even more shocking in my eyes. I play it for two reasons: aesthetic (a beautiful and sound move) and because it allows me to play 4 dxe5 Bc5 without being afraid of 4 Bd3 d5 5 dxe5. The story about my opponent being shellshocked was just an illustration. It's not my main goal to shock my opponents or to make them uncomfortable.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #89 - 08/24/20 at 19:27:30
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There are good reasons for playing a move, and there are bad reasons. If you give up the bad reasons, it will help your chess in general, because there are many more moves to which reasons need applying. After giving up the bad reasons you don't necessarily give up the move, as long as there are still some good reasons left.
  
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mn
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #88 - 08/24/20 at 18:34:25
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That's true, but the reasons for playing 4...Nc6 don't have to be psychological. It's a sound alternative to 4...d5 that doesn't give White the ability to make a draw immediately.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #87 - 08/24/20 at 17:48:54
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4 Nxe4 4.Bd3 Nc6

gwnn wrote on 08/24/20 at 12:09:12:
I think for that move alone it is worth taking up the Petroff. I've only had it on the table OTB once, but my opponent was completely shellshocked. I lost later because I'm bad at chess, but the look on his face was priceless.

So he wasn't completely shellshocked. Not choosing openings by criteria like that must be worth significant Elo. 4...Nc6 itself isn't such a bad move, but there are plenty of shocking moves which aren't worth playing. And here's a pro-tip about psychology: You can't predict how your opponent will respond to a psychological trick. Some will be demotivated by it, others will be extra motivated. Save the psychology for yourself, where you know with some certainty how the experimental subject will respond.
  
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gwnn
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #86 - 08/24/20 at 12:09:12
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mn wrote on 07/27/20 at 01:28:36:
I've yet to be shown what's wrong with 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 d4 Nxe4 4 Bd3 Nc6.

I think for that move alone it is worth taking up the Petroff. I've only had it on the table OTB once, but my opponent was completely shellshocked. I lost later because I'm bad at chess, but the look on his face was priceless.

It also means that one can play 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 d4 Nxe4 4 dxe5 Bc5 as Lakdawala recommends. It mostly ends in perpetual but at least it's fun.


MNb wrote on 04/21/20 at 11:29:47:
Has a remedy been found against that piece sac line with 9...Bxa2 ? Were I to pick up the Petrov it definitely would be my first option to consider.

Wow that's awesome, never heard of this line Smiley
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #85 - 07/27/20 at 12:40:36
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 07/26/20 at 23:44:51:
Is the Petroff really only suitable for match play, correspondence play, or the last round of a swiss? I would not always object to a draw against a slightly weaker white, but I wouldn't want to make a habit of it. And if white is substantially weaker, I would feel obliged to vary from a forced perpetual. Move two seems like a good moment.

I used to worry about this, but eventually I realised that at my level it's a non-issue. Very few of my opponents are so weak that, for me, a draw would be a disappointing result. Many of them are rated below me, but they tend to be rapidly improving juniors against whom I would be relieved to get a draw. Even the ones who genuinely are weaker than me will nearly always be playing for a win. They wouldn't go for a repetition even if they knew how to get one, and if we get into a drawish endgame at least one of us is guaranteed to screw it up.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #84 - 07/27/20 at 08:52:48
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mn wrote on 07/27/20 at 08:17:29:
Not a typo! 5...d5 and Black wins the piece back.


It does indeed....I should of had a closer look...sorry!
  
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mn
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #83 - 07/27/20 at 08:17:29
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Not a typo! 5...d5 and Black wins the piece back.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #82 - 07/27/20 at 05:22:02
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mn wrote on 07/27/20 at 01:28:36:
I've yet to be shown what's wrong with 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 d4 Nxe4 4 Bd3 Nc6.


5 Bxe4 perhaps..
  
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mn
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #81 - 07/27/20 at 01:28:36
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I've yet to be shown what's wrong with 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 d4 Nxe4 4 Bd3 Nc6.

I think the main reason why I don't play the Petroff more than occasionally in blitz is the big modern main line with [1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nxe5 d6 4 Nf3 Nxe4] 5 Nc3. It seems like all the lines that give Black chances to win are extremely risky.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #80 - 07/26/20 at 23:44:51
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TopNotch wrote on 04/18/20 at 23:41:20:
Playing 1...e5 is great, but meet 2.Nf3 with 2...Nc6 after which there are plenty of rich fighting options to choose from. I consider the Petroff as little more than an attempt by elite players to force a draw, yes black will win sometimes but that's mostly when white is very ambitious and willing to take some risks.


tracke wrote on 07/17/20 at 21:38:58:
Often there’s no tendency (for Dhopade) to avoid dead positions or forced draws.


In a similar vein, on the Quality Chess blog "JB" says Dhopade's repertoire allows white to force a perpetual at move 6. http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/blog/7441#comment-458104

I think the line in question is 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4 Nxe4 4.Bd3 d5 5.Nxe5 Nd7 6.Nxf7.

Is the Petroff really only suitable for match play, correspondence play, or the last round of a swiss? I would not always object to a draw against a slightly weaker white, but I wouldn't want to make a habit of it. And if white is substantially weaker, I would feel obliged to vary from a forced perpetual. Move two seems like a good moment.

I came to that conclusion a long time ago, but it didn't stop me from posting this nonsense:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 04/19/20 at 03:05:17:
I actually think the Petroff would be an ideal opening for me, and I should take it up. I've been telling myself that for over 20 years, by now it's just an idle revery.

The correct thing to do is, after having weighed up all the pros and cons in the decision-making process, to write down the reasons why I decided the way I did. Then I won't have to keep repeating the question endlessly for 20 years.
  
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grandpatzer
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #79 - 07/25/20 at 14:20:39
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If anyone has the book, could you please tell us in some detail what is he suggesting vs. the non - 2.Nf3 lines?
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #78 - 07/25/20 at 07:09:03
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errata 1 (not really important):
p.22: 3.d4 Nxe4 4.Nxe5 d6 5.Nf3 d5 doesn’t transpose to Chapter 6 (5.d3) but to Chapters 8-10 (5.d4).

Btw, from the preface: „Carlsen only played 1.e4 in two of the twelve classical games of the match, [...]“
That’s not explicitly wrong but maybe misleading, of course Carlsen had only six classical games as White.

tracke  Smiley
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #77 - 07/25/20 at 05:54:13
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Thanks. 9...c6 was too obvious for Hooper (and Harding) to overlook, so I did suspect a typo. Harding had to translate from algebraic to descriptive for "marketing" reasons, which is bound to cause a lot of slip-ups. After 9.Bxd5 the engine likes 9...Nf2 10.Nc3 O-O (10...Nxh1 11.Bxf7+ is 0.00 but I don't really understand it) 11.Rg1 Qc5 =+. The engine prefers for white 9.dxe4 Qxe5 10.exd5 Qxe2+ 11.Kxe2 Bg4+ 12.Kd3 Bf5+ 13.Ke2 O-O also =+ but less so. Maybe my -/+ was a little hasty.
  
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