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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Playing the Petroff by Dhopade (Read 36263 times)
an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #77 - 07/25/20 at 05:54:13
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Thanks. 9...c6 was too obvious for Hooper (and Harding) to overlook, so I did suspect a typo. Harding had to translate from algebraic to descriptive for "marketing" reasons, which is bound to cause a lot of slip-ups. After 9.Bxd5 the engine likes 9...Nf2 10.Nc3 O-O (10...Nxh1 11.Bxf7+ is 0.00 but I don't really understand it) 11.Rg1 Qc5 =+. The engine prefers for white 9.dxe4 Qxe5 10.exd5 Qxe2+ 11.Kxe2 Bg4+ 12.Kd3 Bf5+ 13.Ke2 O-O also =+ but less so. Maybe my -/+ was a little hasty.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #76 - 07/25/20 at 05:16:22
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 07/25/20 at 04:24:06:
7...Bb6 8.Bb3 Qe7 9.d4 "= Hooper". No idea what Hooper had in mind, but after simply 9...c6 we have a simple symmetrical position where white is down a pawn and can't castle.

I'm looking at the Hooper book, and what he actually gave there is 9. Bxd5 Qxe5 =.  (Might be wrong, but at least it's not ridiculous like the 9. d4 bit.)
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #75 - 07/25/20 at 04:24:06
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Nxe4

4.Nxe5 was pointed out as tricky. (Harding also gives 4.Qe2 d5 5.Nxe5 transposing.) After 4.Nxe5, both Harding and Janjgava give 4...Qe7 "!", but see my Reply #57 earlier in this topic. The other move for black is 4...d5 when Johnsen says "black is better".

4.Nxe5 d5 5.Qe2 Black has several moves worth considering: 5...dxc4 "?" Harding, "?!" Janjgava. 5...Be6 "no mark" Harding, "!?" Janjgava. But let's look at the sharpest move, following a line in Janjgava. 5...Bc5 6.d3 dxc4 (The only move in Janjgava. Harding also considers 6...Bxf2+, see below.) 7.Qxe4 O-O 8.Qxc4 Qe7 9.d4 ( "= Hooper" Harding ) 9... Bxd4 10.Qxd4 Nc6 "= Steinitz" Janjgava

There are two problems with this line. First, black can improve with 8...Bd4 9.Nf3 Re8+ and white has to move the king, giving black a clear advantage.More complicated is 8...Bd4 9.f4 Be6 but it's even more advantageous for black, a probably winning attack. Second, white can improve earlier with 7.dxe4 (closing the e-file makes total sense) 7...O-O 8.O-O and whether black sacrifices the pawn with 8...Qe7 or defends it with 8...b5, white has a shade the better of equality.

4.Nxe5 d5 5.Qe2 Bc5 6.d3 Bxf2+ That's more like it! 7.Kf1 Harding attributes 7.Kf1 to Hooper. 7.Kd1 is Harding's main move and after 7...Bb6 he continues with a couple of lines, by Staunton (+/-) and Cook (=) respectively. But they don't matter, because black gets a clear advantage with the improvement 7.Kd1 dxc4 8.Qxe4 O-O. Simple chess. 7...Bb6 8.Bb3 Qe7 9.d4 "= Hooper". No idea what Hooper had in mind, but after simply 9...c6 we have a simple symmetrical position where white is down a pawn and can't castle.

4.Nxe5 d5 5.Qe2 Bc5 6.O-O O-O 7.Bb3 Re8 8.d3 Nxf2 "-/+ Staunton" is one last line given by Harding. But black should be winning here. A slight improvement for white is 7.Bd3 but it's still -/+.

Verdict: -/+ after 4...d5, just as Johnsen said.
  

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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #74 - 07/25/20 at 02:14:25
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TNich wrote on 07/24/20 at 01:36:42:
Lakdawala in both 'The Petroff: Move by Move' and 'Opening Repertoire: The Petroff' fails to cover the position after 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nxe4.
Other books not covering the position are:
Petroff's Defence - Fornitos & Haag


Forintos & Haag cover it in all of chapter 36 (pages 236 to 239).
  
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TNich
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #73 - 07/24/20 at 15:40:21
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MNb wrote on 07/24/20 at 05:42:18:
Another question, do those books on the Petrov's Defense deal with 3.h3 ? If not it's a serious omission, comparable with GM Nunn refusing to deal with 6...e5 in his Complete Najdorf 6.Bg5 book.


Nunn covers 6...e5 on page 303.
Negi also covers 6...e5 in GMR 1.e4 vs The Sicilian I. Better luck next time.
As for whether 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Nxe4 4.Nxe5 should be covered in a book on the Petroff? I would say yes based on the fact that 4.Nxe5 is a forcing move that makes a threat. It's not obvious that there is anything wrong with the move.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #72 - 07/24/20 at 15:25:51
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tracke wrote on 07/24/20 at 12:45:21:
but Dophade also spends 3 full pages on 7.Bd3 Bd6 8.0-0 0-0 9.Bg5 Bg4 10.Nbd2 Nbd7 11.c3 c6 12.Qc2 Qc7 .

Wow; I recognized that as Capablanca-Maroczy, perhaps a paradigm of Exchange French drawishness.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #71 - 07/24/20 at 14:03:32
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MNb seems to have taken my passing remark that no-one has ever played 3.h3 against me (not that no-one has ever played it!) to mean that my post was a riposte to his. It wasn't. But, since he has rightly pointed out that my own experience is not necessarily typical, I'll add this. According to Megabase, in games where White is rated between 1500 and 1799, 6% of games which start 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 continue 3.Bc4 - never 3.h3! - and 10% of games which start 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 continue 3.Nf3. In each case it is the fourth most popular move. Of course Dhopade's book probably isn't aimed at players of this level, but some of the other books mentioned certainly are.
  
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tracke
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #70 - 07/24/20 at 12:45:21
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Regarding 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bc4?! Nxe4! without 4.Nc3 Dhopade has a half page, essentially
- 4.0-0?! d5 5.Qe2 dxc4 6.Qxe4 Nc6! 7.Nxe5 Qd4! 8.Re1 Qxe4 9.Rxe4 Nxe5 10.Rxe5+ Be6. -/+
- 4.d3 Nc5 5.Nxe5 d5 6.Bb3 Bd6 7.d4 Nxb3 8.axb3 0-0 9.0-0 d4!  =/+

Chapter 6 about the French Exchange (3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.d3 Nf6 6.d4 d5) is interesting but maybe too long (15 pages) in a book on the Petroff?
There has been some debate on 7.Bd3 Bd6 8.Qe2+, but Dophade also spends 3 full pages on 7.Bd3 Bd6 8.0-0 0-0 9.Bg5 Bg4 10.Nbd2 Nbd7 11.c3 c6 12.Qc2 Qc7 .

I‘m not the man to decide about cutting edge theory, but imo there have recently been some developments in the line 3.d4 Nxe4 4.Bd3 d5 5.Nxe5 Nd7 6.Nc3, maybe Dhopade‘s choice 6...Nxc3 7.bxc3 Nxe5 8. dxe5 Bc5 (only 2 pages) isn‘t as safe as it was in 2019, White‘s attacking ideas are quite deep?!

Anyway, the real meat of Dhopade‘s book are Chapter 8-12 with coverage of the Marshall System 6...Bd6 in the Old main line and the Modern main line with 5.Nc3.
Therefore all serious Petroff players will need this book! If the book suits as stand-alone source or is just a necessary additional source, depends on the individual playing strengh, working methods, repertoire choices and the way you play the Petroff!?

So far I‘ve put four Chapters into my private files but haven’t found any analytical mistakes or typos.

tracke  Smiley
  
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doefmat
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #69 - 07/24/20 at 09:14:49
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Lol quite a discussion. I started the whole thing but I never meant to say it SHOULD be in the book, only that from a lower rated perspective some obscure sidelines are actually mainlines. And that from my individual perspective, there was some disappointment.

  

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MNb
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #68 - 07/24/20 at 08:41:50
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 07/24/20 at 06:11:44:
It depends on the audience.

Your argument fully applies to 3.h3 as well - a 2200+ player has had success with it and that's way above my level.  Tongue

Straggler wrote on 07/24/20 at 08:35:23:
In my games at patzer level,

At my patzer level nobody has ever played 3.Bc4 either. So what the people around you play must determine the content of an opening book? If not this is simply irrelevant.

Straggler wrote on 07/24/20 at 08:35:23:
(whereas no-one has ever played 3.h3);

So Xavier Delebarre is a nobody.

Straggler wrote on 07/24/20 at 08:35:23:
and, after 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6, 3.Nf3 is as common as 3.d3 or 3.Nc3. If Jänisch got it wrong I think it's reasonable to expect some guidance on it.

My comments are not about 3.Bc4 against the Petrov, but about other options than 3.Bc4 Nxe4 4.Nc3. You could have concluded that from

MNb wrote on 07/24/20 at 05:42:18:
Half a page on other moves than 4.Nc3 ! I'm sure theory on these options has radically changed since then.


Look, we've got it. Dhopade hasn't presented antidotes to 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Nxe4 other moves than 4.Nc3. Some serious people might be grateful for this incredibly important information but also suggest that it's time to move on. That's what I will do.
  

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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #67 - 07/24/20 at 08:35:23
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MW wrote on 07/24/20 at 03:57:58:
TNich wrote on 07/24/20 at 01:36:42:
Cohen simply does not cover the position after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3. Bc4.

Cohen does mention it note (B) at the bottom of page 61 

Thanks for pointing this out: I too was under the impression that Cohen didn't mention it. It's his own fault, really, since that note is in a chapter entitled "The Four Knights: Rare Continuations" and is not referenced in the table of variations. If the reader can't find it, it might as well not be there. (He recommends 3...Nxe4 4.Nxe5? d5.)

In my games at patzer level, 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bc4 is not at all uncommon (whereas no-one has ever played 3.h3); and, after 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6, 3.Nf3 is as common as 3.d3 or 3.Nc3. If Jänisch got it wrong I think it's reasonable to expect some guidance on it.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #66 - 07/24/20 at 06:11:44
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MNb wrote on 07/24/20 at 05:42:18:
kylemeister wrote on 07/24/20 at 02:23:31:
For the record it was also addressed in a Petroff-advocacy book from the 1960s, David Hooper's  A Complete Defence to 1. P-K4.  (He thought that after 3...Nxe4, 4. Qe2 is "objectively best, but futureless," and had the ostensible best-play lines as leading to equality.)


Now we're at it, so does IM Harding in his 1973 book Bishop's Opening. Half a page on other moves than 4.Nc3 ! I'm sure theory on these options has radically changed since then.
Another question, do those books on the Petrov's Defense deal with 3.h3 ? If not it's a serious omission, comparable with GM Nunn refusing to deal with 6...e5 in his Complete Najdorf 6.Bg5 book.  Tongue

A little heavy on the sarcasm for my taste. I already quoted from Harding's book before in this thread. As for whether books should cover sidelines, it depends on the audience. Books aimed at strong players should not, they would just find it annoying. Books aimed at club players most definitely should. As MW says, at his level the sidelines are actually the main lines. Even your Najdorf 6.Bg5 e5 example might deserve a mention in a book for club players; it could be instructive to show the punishment. No doubt some of them will actually face 6...e5.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #65 - 07/24/20 at 05:51:41
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Nxe4

I forgot about Janjgava, I own this book!

Janjgava (2001) The Petroff pages 7-10
covers -- 4.Nc3, 4.d3, 4.Qe2, and 4.Nxe5.
After 4.Nxe5 he gives both 4...d5 with 5.Qe2 leading to equality as in Harding (and probably Hooper); and 4...Qe7! (sic) then giving the same mistaken Jaenisch analysis as Harding (but Janjgava doesn't attribute it to anybody). On the whole quite good coverage of 3.Bc4. He even gives a novelty for white (!) in the Boden-Kieseritzky Gambit. Of course black can equalize anyway and Bologan shows how.

Hooper (1967) A Complete Defence to 1 P-K4
Cafferty and Hooper (1986) A Complete Defence to 1.e4, 2nd edition
I no longer have these books. One thing I remember is they have some coverage of Philidor's Defense, which I always thought was crazy to include in a Petroff repertoire book. Harding quotes extensively from Hooper. Jangjava gives some of the same variations as Harding but sometimes attributes them to Steinitz (instead of Hooper), and other times does not attribute them. I assume Steinitz means The Modern Chess Instructor. So it might be interesting to compare Hooper with Steinitz.

I also looked in some 2...Nc6 repertoire books, of course they all use the Bishop's Opening move order, 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nxe4.
  • Bologan (2014) Bologan's Black Weapons in the Open Games pages 68-70 -- only 4.Nc3
  • Lokander (2015) opening repertoire: the Open Games with Black - no mention of 3.Nf3
  • Ntirlis (2016) Playing 1.e4 e5: A Classical Repertoire -- no mention of 3.Nf3
  • Johnsen (2018) How to Beat the Open Games pages 217-218 -- 4.Nc3, and 4.Nxe5. Of 4.Nxe5 he says only "There's no need to analyse 4.Nxe5?! d5; Black is already better." Not too helpful.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #64 - 07/24/20 at 05:42:18
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kylemeister wrote on 07/24/20 at 02:23:31:
For the record it was also addressed in a Petroff-advocacy book from the 1960s, David Hooper's  A Complete Defence to 1. P-K4.  (He thought that after 3...Nxe4, 4. Qe2 is "objectively best, but futureless," and had the ostensible best-play lines as leading to equality.)


Now we're at it, so does IM Harding in his 1973 book Bishop's Opening. Half a page on other moves than 4.Nc3 ! I'm sure theory on these options has radically changed since then.
Another question, do those books on the Petrov's Defense deal with 3.h3 ? If not it's a serious omission, comparable with GM Nunn refusing to deal with 6...e5 in his Complete Najdorf 6.Bg5 book.  Tongue
  

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MW
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #63 - 07/24/20 at 04:21:20
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TNich wrote on 07/24/20 at 01:36:42:
Lakdawala in both 'The Petroff: Move by Move' and 'Opening Repertoire: The Petroff' fails to cover the position after 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nxe4.


Also just checked Lakdawala's two books....in his Move by Move book game 46 starting page 382 offers some coverage but only with 4 Nc3.
  
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