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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Playing the Petroff by Dhopade (Read 7437 times)
Straggler
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #85 - 07/27/20 at 12:40:36
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 07/26/20 at 23:44:51:
Is the Petroff really only suitable for match play, correspondence play, or the last round of a swiss? I would not always object to a draw against a slightly weaker white, but I wouldn't want to make a habit of it. And if white is substantially weaker, I would feel obliged to vary from a forced perpetual. Move two seems like a good moment.

I used to worry about this, but eventually I realised that at my level it's a non-issue. Very few of my opponents are so weak that, for me, a draw would be a disappointing result. Many of them are rated below me, but they tend to be rapidly improving juniors against whom I would be relieved to get a draw. Even the ones who genuinely are weaker than me will nearly always be playing for a win. They wouldn't go for a repetition even if they knew how to get one, and if we get into a drawish endgame at least one of us is guaranteed to screw it up.
  
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MW
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #84 - 07/27/20 at 08:52:48
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mn wrote on 07/27/20 at 08:17:29:
Not a typo! 5...d5 and Black wins the piece back.


It does indeed....I should of had a closer look...sorry!
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #83 - 07/27/20 at 08:17:29
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Not a typo! 5...d5 and Black wins the piece back.
  
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MW
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #82 - 07/27/20 at 05:22:02
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mn wrote on 07/27/20 at 01:28:36:
I've yet to be shown what's wrong with 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 d4 Nxe4 4 Bd3 Nc6.


5 Bxe4 perhaps..
  
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mn
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #81 - 07/27/20 at 01:28:36
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I've yet to be shown what's wrong with 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 d4 Nxe4 4 Bd3 Nc6.

I think the main reason why I don't play the Petroff more than occasionally in blitz is the big modern main line with [1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nxe5 d6 4 Nf3 Nxe4] 5 Nc3. It seems like all the lines that give Black chances to win are extremely risky.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #80 - 07/26/20 at 23:44:51
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TopNotch wrote on 04/18/20 at 23:41:20:
Playing 1...e5 is great, but meet 2.Nf3 with 2...Nc6 after which there are plenty of rich fighting options to choose from. I consider the Petroff as little more than an attempt by elite players to force a draw, yes black will win sometimes but that's mostly when white is very ambitious and willing to take some risks.


tracke wrote on 07/17/20 at 21:38:58:
Often there’s no tendency (for Dhopade) to avoid dead positions or forced draws.


In a similar vein, on the Quality Chess blog "JB" says Dhopade's repertoire allows white to force a perpetual at move 6. http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/blog/7441#comment-458104

I think the line in question is 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4 Nxe4 4.Bd3 d5 5.Nxe5 Nd7 6.Nxf7.

Is the Petroff really only suitable for match play, correspondence play, or the last round of a swiss? I would not always object to a draw against a slightly weaker white, but I wouldn't want to make a habit of it. And if white is substantially weaker, I would feel obliged to vary from a forced perpetual. Move two seems like a good moment.

I came to that conclusion a long time ago, but it didn't stop me from posting this nonsense:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 04/19/20 at 03:05:17:
I actually think the Petroff would be an ideal opening for me, and I should take it up. I've been telling myself that for over 20 years, by now it's just an idle revery.

The correct thing to do is, after having weighed up all the pros and cons in the decision-making process, to write down the reasons why I decided the way I did. Then I won't have to keep repeating the question endlessly for 20 years.
  
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grandpatzer
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #79 - 07/25/20 at 14:20:39
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If anyone has the book, could you please tell us in some detail what is he suggesting vs. the non - 2.Nf3 lines?
  
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tracke
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #78 - 07/25/20 at 07:09:03
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errata 1 (not really important):
p.22: 3.d4 Nxe4 4.Nxe5 d6 5.Nf3 d5 doesn’t transpose to Chapter 6 (5.d3) but to Chapters 8-10 (5.d4).

Btw, from the preface: „Carlsen only played 1.e4 in two of the twelve classical games of the match, [...]“
That’s not explicitly wrong but maybe misleading, of course Carlsen had only six classical games as White.

tracke  Smiley
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #77 - 07/25/20 at 05:54:13
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Thanks. 9...c6 was too obvious for Hooper (and Harding) to overlook, so I did suspect a typo. Harding had to translate from algebraic to descriptive for "marketing" reasons, which is bound to cause a lot of slip-ups. After 9.Bxd5 the engine likes 9...Nf2 10.Nc3 O-O (10...Nxh1 11.Bxf7+ is 0.00 but I don't really understand it) 11.Rg1 Qc5 =+. The engine prefers for white 9.dxe4 Qxe5 10.exd5 Qxe2+ 11.Kxe2 Bg4+ 12.Kd3 Bf5+ 13.Ke2 O-O also =+ but less so. Maybe my -/+ was a little hasty.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #76 - 07/25/20 at 05:16:22
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 07/25/20 at 04:24:06:
7...Bb6 8.Bb3 Qe7 9.d4 "= Hooper". No idea what Hooper had in mind, but after simply 9...c6 we have a simple symmetrical position where white is down a pawn and can't castle.

I'm looking at the Hooper book, and what he actually gave there is 9. Bxd5 Qxe5 =.  (Might be wrong, but at least it's not ridiculous like the 9. d4 bit.)
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #75 - 07/25/20 at 04:24:06
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Nxe4

4.Nxe5 was pointed out as tricky. (Harding also gives 4.Qe2 d5 5.Nxe5 transposing.) After 4.Nxe5, both Harding and Janjgava give 4...Qe7 "!", but see my Reply #57 earlier in this topic. The other move for black is 4...d5 when Johnsen says "black is better".

4.Nxe5 d5 5.Qe2 Black has several moves worth considering: 5...dxc4 "?" Harding, "?!" Janjgava. 5...Be6 "no mark" Harding, "!?" Janjgava. But let's look at the sharpest move, following a line in Janjgava. 5...Bc5 6.d3 dxc4 (The only move in Janjgava. Harding also considers 6...Bxf2+, see below.) 7.Qxe4 O-O 8.Qxc4 Qe7 9.d4 ( "= Hooper" Harding ) 9... Bxd4 10.Qxd4 Nc6 "= Steinitz" Janjgava

There are two problems with this line. First, black can improve with 8...Bd4 9.Nf3 Re8+ and white has to move the king, giving black a clear advantage.More complicated is 8...Bd4 9.f4 Be6 but it's even more advantageous for black, a probably winning attack. Second, white can improve earlier with 7.dxe4 (closing the e-file makes total sense) 7...O-O 8.O-O and whether black sacrifices the pawn with 8...Qe7 or defends it with 8...b5, white has a shade the better of equality.

4.Nxe5 d5 5.Qe2 Bc5 6.d3 Bxf2+ That's more like it! 7.Kf1 Harding attributes 7.Kf1 to Hooper. 7.Kd1 is Harding's main move and after 7...Bb6 he continues with a couple of lines, by Staunton (+/-) and Cook (=) respectively. But they don't matter, because black gets a clear advantage with the improvement 7.Kd1 dxc4 8.Qxe4 O-O. Simple chess. 7...Bb6 8.Bb3 Qe7 9.d4 "= Hooper". No idea what Hooper had in mind, but after simply 9...c6 we have a simple symmetrical position where white is down a pawn and can't castle.

4.Nxe5 d5 5.Qe2 Bc5 6.O-O O-O 7.Bb3 Re8 8.d3 Nxf2 "-/+ Staunton" is one last line given by Harding. But black should be winning here. A slight improvement for white is 7.Bd3 but it's still -/+.

Verdict: -/+ after 4...d5, just as Johnsen said.
  

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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #74 - 07/25/20 at 02:14:25
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TNich wrote on 07/24/20 at 01:36:42:
Lakdawala in both 'The Petroff: Move by Move' and 'Opening Repertoire: The Petroff' fails to cover the position after 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nxe4.
Other books not covering the position are:
Petroff's Defence - Fornitos & Haag


Forintos & Haag cover it in all of chapter 36 (pages 236 to 239).
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #73 - 07/24/20 at 15:40:21
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MNb wrote on 07/24/20 at 05:42:18:
Another question, do those books on the Petrov's Defense deal with 3.h3 ? If not it's a serious omission, comparable with GM Nunn refusing to deal with 6...e5 in his Complete Najdorf 6.Bg5 book.


Nunn covers 6...e5 on page 303.
Negi also covers 6...e5 in GMR 1.e4 vs The Sicilian I. Better luck next time.
As for whether 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Nxe4 4.Nxe5 should be covered in a book on the Petroff? I would say yes based on the fact that 4.Nxe5 is a forcing move that makes a threat. It's not obvious that there is anything wrong with the move.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #72 - 07/24/20 at 15:25:51
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tracke wrote on 07/24/20 at 12:45:21:
but Dophade also spends 3 full pages on 7.Bd3 Bd6 8.0-0 0-0 9.Bg5 Bg4 10.Nbd2 Nbd7 11.c3 c6 12.Qc2 Qc7 .

Wow; I recognized that as Capablanca-Maroczy, perhaps a paradigm of Exchange French drawishness.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #71 - 07/24/20 at 14:03:32
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MNb seems to have taken my passing remark that no-one has ever played 3.h3 against me (not that no-one has ever played it!) to mean that my post was a riposte to his. It wasn't. But, since he has rightly pointed out that my own experience is not necessarily typical, I'll add this. According to Megabase, in games where White is rated between 1500 and 1799, 6% of games which start 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 continue 3.Bc4 - never 3.h3! - and 10% of games which start 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 continue 3.Nf3. In each case it is the fourth most popular move. Of course Dhopade's book probably isn't aimed at players of this level, but some of the other books mentioned certainly are.
  
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