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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Playing the Petroff by Dhopade (Read 15443 times)
tracke
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #92 - 12/13/20 at 19:06:45
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After working through the book I still have a very high opinion about it, maybe even more than before. Now I just want to share some more typos/mistakes/notes :

p.34 right „Schonberger - Krebs, email 2012“ : probably the white player is Kay Schönberger (/Schoenberger)

p.44 right „... when Black‘s active bishops offers him ...“ : offer

p.62 left „This been played ...“ : has

p.69 left „Black centralizes his rook and put pressure on ...“ ; puts

p.110 left „the immediate 15...gxf5 should lead to a draw in the same way“ : well, 15...gxf5?? 16.Qh5+! is probably winning for White! But this doesn’t affect the over-all evaluation

p.113 left ; the whole variation B21 is fine for Black, but if you analyse 9.Be2? (-+) and 9.Be3 (=+), you could also take a look at the chaotic 9.Kd1?! (oo/=+) which is the first choice of my SF10

p.126 right „11.Ne4!N The knight it heading...“ ; is

p.131 right „15.d5 ... 19.Ng5 Ree8 was level...“ ; 19.Nxg5

p.148 left „Blac intends ...Re8 ...“ ; Black

p.153 left „... enables Black‘s pieces to springs to life“ ; spring

p.199 right „... where my analysis shows that Black more than enough resources...“ ; has

p.203 right „... capturing it does not give White as easy game „ ; an

p.230 left „... 26.Kxd2 Despite White‘s extra pawn, the opposite-coloured bishops enabled Black to hold the draw ...“ ; that‘s a little bit misleading imo, as actual the material is equal and only three moves later White wins his extra pawn! Even if the position after 26.Kxd2 is not too complex, it might take some time and playing strengh to see that spending a pawn is the best (or even the only) way for Black to reach the draw!?

p.235 right „... even through it is currently blocked ...“ ; though

p.237 left „16.Qg3+ ... 18.Rxe6 (17.Qf4 gives Black the extra option of ... 17...Bg4!? ...“ ; if you want to make some sense out of this, read 18.Qg3+ (for 17.Qf4) and 18... Bg4!? (for 17... Bg4!?)

p.265 left In the coverage of the Modern Defence to the King‘s Gambit I miss the Declined Falkbeer 2.f4 d5 3.Nf3

p.271 right „This is the only key move to know. 9.Kd2 So far ...“ ; Obviously 9.Qd2 was the move played in Hector-Smith 2017

p.293f „15.Qf2 Ne7! With an extra pawn and the knight heading for the perfect g5-square, ...“ ; certainly the Ne7 heads for f5 or g6

p.302 left „3.Nc3 would of course lead back to variation C of the previous Chapter 1.“ ; Chapter 15

p.305 <-> p.307:  7.Nbd2 0-0 8.0-0 Nbd7 9.Re1 Re8 and 7.0-0 0-0 8.Re1 Nbd7 9.Nbd2 Qc7! (Re8?!) lead to the same position but get different evaluations/suggestions, probably the second suggestion is better

* * *

I didn‘t look as deep in Kravtsiv‘s books (Italian Renaissance 1&2), there I just counterchecked Swapnil‘s Petroff lines and noticed one little typo/mistake (Vol.1, p.157 left):
17...Bd7! 18.Nd4 b5! 19.Qd6 Ra6 20.Qe7 Qxe7=
That’s nonsense cause of 19.Qd6?! Ra6?? 20.Qxa6 +-
Obviously meant is 18.Nd4 b5 or 18.Qd6 Ra6 19.Qe7 Qxe7=

tracke  Smiley

  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #91 - 08/25/20 at 20:50:40
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mn wrote on 07/27/20 at 01:28:36:
I've yet to be shown what's wrong with 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 d4 Nxe4 4 Bd3 Nc6.

I think the main reason why I don't play the Petroff more than occasionally in blitz is the big modern main line with [1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nxe5 d6 4 Nf3 Nxe4] 5 Nc3. It seems like all the lines that give Black chances to win are extremely risky.


I used to play this line a lot as White and never found anything earth shattering against 4...Nc6!?, it should definitely be taken seriously and you are right that theory does not give a clear answer for White, in fact most sources fail to cover it whilst the ones that do are usually outdated and give unconvincing analysis. Best thing that White can do for ideas is check what Tiviakov and Rublesky have played against this line and if necessary attempt to improve upon it.   
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #90 - 08/25/20 at 06:39:00
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I probably did not explain myself very well. Obviously, lots of shocking moves are so because they are bad. Nc6 is not bad, which makes it even more shocking in my eyes. I play it for two reasons: aesthetic (a beautiful and sound move) and because it allows me to play 4 dxe5 Bc5 without being afraid of 4 Bd3 d5 5 dxe5. The story about my opponent being shellshocked was just an illustration. It's not my main goal to shock my opponents or to make them uncomfortable.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #89 - 08/24/20 at 19:27:30
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There are good reasons for playing a move, and there are bad reasons. If you give up the bad reasons, it will help your chess in general, because there are many more moves to which reasons need applying. After giving up the bad reasons you don't necessarily give up the move, as long as there are still some good reasons left.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #88 - 08/24/20 at 18:34:25
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That's true, but the reasons for playing 4...Nc6 don't have to be psychological. It's a sound alternative to 4...d5 that doesn't give White the ability to make a draw immediately.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #87 - 08/24/20 at 17:48:54
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4 Nxe4 4.Bd3 Nc6

gwnn wrote on 08/24/20 at 12:09:12:
I think for that move alone it is worth taking up the Petroff. I've only had it on the table OTB once, but my opponent was completely shellshocked. I lost later because I'm bad at chess, but the look on his face was priceless.

So he wasn't completely shellshocked. Not choosing openings by criteria like that must be worth significant Elo. 4...Nc6 itself isn't such a bad move, but there are plenty of shocking moves which aren't worth playing. And here's a pro-tip about psychology: You can't predict how your opponent will respond to a psychological trick. Some will be demotivated by it, others will be extra motivated. Save the psychology for yourself, where you know with some certainty how the experimental subject will respond.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #86 - 08/24/20 at 12:09:12
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mn wrote on 07/27/20 at 01:28:36:
I've yet to be shown what's wrong with 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 d4 Nxe4 4 Bd3 Nc6.

I think for that move alone it is worth taking up the Petroff. I've only had it on the table OTB once, but my opponent was completely shellshocked. I lost later because I'm bad at chess, but the look on his face was priceless.

It also means that one can play 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 d4 Nxe4 4 dxe5 Bc5 as Lakdawala recommends. It mostly ends in perpetual but at least it's fun.


MNb wrote on 04/21/20 at 11:29:47:
Has a remedy been found against that piece sac line with 9...Bxa2 ? Were I to pick up the Petrov it definitely would be my first option to consider.

Wow that's awesome, never heard of this line Smiley
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #85 - 07/27/20 at 12:40:36
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 07/26/20 at 23:44:51:
Is the Petroff really only suitable for match play, correspondence play, or the last round of a swiss? I would not always object to a draw against a slightly weaker white, but I wouldn't want to make a habit of it. And if white is substantially weaker, I would feel obliged to vary from a forced perpetual. Move two seems like a good moment.

I used to worry about this, but eventually I realised that at my level it's a non-issue. Very few of my opponents are so weak that, for me, a draw would be a disappointing result. Many of them are rated below me, but they tend to be rapidly improving juniors against whom I would be relieved to get a draw. Even the ones who genuinely are weaker than me will nearly always be playing for a win. They wouldn't go for a repetition even if they knew how to get one, and if we get into a drawish endgame at least one of us is guaranteed to screw it up.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #84 - 07/27/20 at 08:52:48
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mn wrote on 07/27/20 at 08:17:29:
Not a typo! 5...d5 and Black wins the piece back.


It does indeed....I should of had a closer look...sorry!
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #83 - 07/27/20 at 08:17:29
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Not a typo! 5...d5 and Black wins the piece back.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #82 - 07/27/20 at 05:22:02
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mn wrote on 07/27/20 at 01:28:36:
I've yet to be shown what's wrong with 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 d4 Nxe4 4 Bd3 Nc6.


5 Bxe4 perhaps..
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #81 - 07/27/20 at 01:28:36
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I've yet to be shown what's wrong with 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 d4 Nxe4 4 Bd3 Nc6.

I think the main reason why I don't play the Petroff more than occasionally in blitz is the big modern main line with [1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nxe5 d6 4 Nf3 Nxe4] 5 Nc3. It seems like all the lines that give Black chances to win are extremely risky.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #80 - 07/26/20 at 23:44:51
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TopNotch wrote on 04/18/20 at 23:41:20:
Playing 1...e5 is great, but meet 2.Nf3 with 2...Nc6 after which there are plenty of rich fighting options to choose from. I consider the Petroff as little more than an attempt by elite players to force a draw, yes black will win sometimes but that's mostly when white is very ambitious and willing to take some risks.


tracke wrote on 07/17/20 at 21:38:58:
Often there’s no tendency (for Dhopade) to avoid dead positions or forced draws.


In a similar vein, on the Quality Chess blog "JB" says Dhopade's repertoire allows white to force a perpetual at move 6. http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/blog/7441#comment-458104

I think the line in question is 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4 Nxe4 4.Bd3 d5 5.Nxe5 Nd7 6.Nxf7.

Is the Petroff really only suitable for match play, correspondence play, or the last round of a swiss? I would not always object to a draw against a slightly weaker white, but I wouldn't want to make a habit of it. And if white is substantially weaker, I would feel obliged to vary from a forced perpetual. Move two seems like a good moment.

I came to that conclusion a long time ago, but it didn't stop me from posting this nonsense:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 04/19/20 at 03:05:17:
I actually think the Petroff would be an ideal opening for me, and I should take it up. I've been telling myself that for over 20 years, by now it's just an idle revery.

The correct thing to do is, after having weighed up all the pros and cons in the decision-making process, to write down the reasons why I decided the way I did. Then I won't have to keep repeating the question endlessly for 20 years.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #79 - 07/25/20 at 14:20:39
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If anyone has the book, could you please tell us in some detail what is he suggesting vs. the non - 2.Nf3 lines?
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #78 - 07/25/20 at 07:09:03
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errata 1 (not really important):
p.22: 3.d4 Nxe4 4.Nxe5 d6 5.Nf3 d5 doesn’t transpose to Chapter 6 (5.d3) but to Chapters 8-10 (5.d4).

Btw, from the preface: „Carlsen only played 1.e4 in two of the twelve classical games of the match, [...]“
That’s not explicitly wrong but maybe misleading, of course Carlsen had only six classical games as White.

tracke  Smiley
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #77 - 07/25/20 at 05:54:13
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Thanks. 9...c6 was too obvious for Hooper (and Harding) to overlook, so I did suspect a typo. Harding had to translate from algebraic to descriptive for "marketing" reasons, which is bound to cause a lot of slip-ups. After 9.Bxd5 the engine likes 9...Nf2 10.Nc3 O-O (10...Nxh1 11.Bxf7+ is 0.00 but I don't really understand it) 11.Rg1 Qc5 =+. The engine prefers for white 9.dxe4 Qxe5 10.exd5 Qxe2+ 11.Kxe2 Bg4+ 12.Kd3 Bf5+ 13.Ke2 O-O also =+ but less so. Maybe my -/+ was a little hasty.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #76 - 07/25/20 at 05:16:22
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 07/25/20 at 04:24:06:
7...Bb6 8.Bb3 Qe7 9.d4 "= Hooper". No idea what Hooper had in mind, but after simply 9...c6 we have a simple symmetrical position where white is down a pawn and can't castle.

I'm looking at the Hooper book, and what he actually gave there is 9. Bxd5 Qxe5 =.  (Might be wrong, but at least it's not ridiculous like the 9. d4 bit.)
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #75 - 07/25/20 at 04:24:06
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Nxe4

4.Nxe5 was pointed out as tricky. (Harding also gives 4.Qe2 d5 5.Nxe5 transposing.) After 4.Nxe5, both Harding and Janjgava give 4...Qe7 "!", but see my Reply #57 earlier in this topic. The other move for black is 4...d5 when Johnsen says "black is better".

4.Nxe5 d5 5.Qe2 Black has several moves worth considering: 5...dxc4 "?" Harding, "?!" Janjgava. 5...Be6 "no mark" Harding, "!?" Janjgava. But let's look at the sharpest move, following a line in Janjgava. 5...Bc5 6.d3 dxc4 (The only move in Janjgava. Harding also considers 6...Bxf2+, see below.) 7.Qxe4 O-O 8.Qxc4 Qe7 9.d4 ( "= Hooper" Harding ) 9... Bxd4 10.Qxd4 Nc6 "= Steinitz" Janjgava

There are two problems with this line. First, black can improve with 8...Bd4 9.Nf3 Re8+ and white has to move the king, giving black a clear advantage.More complicated is 8...Bd4 9.f4 Be6 but it's even more advantageous for black, a probably winning attack. Second, white can improve earlier with 7.dxe4 (closing the e-file makes total sense) 7...O-O 8.O-O and whether black sacrifices the pawn with 8...Qe7 or defends it with 8...b5, white has a shade the better of equality.

4.Nxe5 d5 5.Qe2 Bc5 6.d3 Bxf2+ That's more like it! 7.Kf1 Harding attributes 7.Kf1 to Hooper. 7.Kd1 is Harding's main move and after 7...Bb6 he continues with a couple of lines, by Staunton (+/-) and Cook (=) respectively. But they don't matter, because black gets a clear advantage with the improvement 7.Kd1 dxc4 8.Qxe4 O-O. Simple chess. 7...Bb6 8.Bb3 Qe7 9.d4 "= Hooper". No idea what Hooper had in mind, but after simply 9...c6 we have a simple symmetrical position where white is down a pawn and can't castle.

4.Nxe5 d5 5.Qe2 Bc5 6.O-O O-O 7.Bb3 Re8 8.d3 Nxf2 "-/+ Staunton" is one last line given by Harding. But black should be winning here. A slight improvement for white is 7.Bd3 but it's still -/+.

Verdict: -/+ after 4...d5, just as Johnsen said.
  

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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #74 - 07/25/20 at 02:14:25
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TNich wrote on 07/24/20 at 01:36:42:
Lakdawala in both 'The Petroff: Move by Move' and 'Opening Repertoire: The Petroff' fails to cover the position after 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nxe4.
Other books not covering the position are:
Petroff's Defence - Fornitos & Haag


Forintos & Haag cover it in all of chapter 36 (pages 236 to 239).
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #73 - 07/24/20 at 15:40:21
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MNb wrote on 07/24/20 at 05:42:18:
Another question, do those books on the Petrov's Defense deal with 3.h3 ? If not it's a serious omission, comparable with GM Nunn refusing to deal with 6...e5 in his Complete Najdorf 6.Bg5 book.


Nunn covers 6...e5 on page 303.
Negi also covers 6...e5 in GMR 1.e4 vs The Sicilian I. Better luck next time.
As for whether 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Nxe4 4.Nxe5 should be covered in a book on the Petroff? I would say yes based on the fact that 4.Nxe5 is a forcing move that makes a threat. It's not obvious that there is anything wrong with the move.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #72 - 07/24/20 at 15:25:51
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tracke wrote on 07/24/20 at 12:45:21:
but Dophade also spends 3 full pages on 7.Bd3 Bd6 8.0-0 0-0 9.Bg5 Bg4 10.Nbd2 Nbd7 11.c3 c6 12.Qc2 Qc7 .

Wow; I recognized that as Capablanca-Maroczy, perhaps a paradigm of Exchange French drawishness.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #71 - 07/24/20 at 14:03:32
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MNb seems to have taken my passing remark that no-one has ever played 3.h3 against me (not that no-one has ever played it!) to mean that my post was a riposte to his. It wasn't. But, since he has rightly pointed out that my own experience is not necessarily typical, I'll add this. According to Megabase, in games where White is rated between 1500 and 1799, 6% of games which start 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 continue 3.Bc4 - never 3.h3! - and 10% of games which start 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 continue 3.Nf3. In each case it is the fourth most popular move. Of course Dhopade's book probably isn't aimed at players of this level, but some of the other books mentioned certainly are.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #70 - 07/24/20 at 12:45:21
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Regarding 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bc4?! Nxe4! without 4.Nc3 Dhopade has a half page, essentially
- 4.0-0?! d5 5.Qe2 dxc4 6.Qxe4 Nc6! 7.Nxe5 Qd4! 8.Re1 Qxe4 9.Rxe4 Nxe5 10.Rxe5+ Be6. -/+
- 4.d3 Nc5 5.Nxe5 d5 6.Bb3 Bd6 7.d4 Nxb3 8.axb3 0-0 9.0-0 d4!  =/+

Chapter 6 about the French Exchange (3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.d3 Nf6 6.d4 d5) is interesting but maybe too long (15 pages) in a book on the Petroff?
There has been some debate on 7.Bd3 Bd6 8.Qe2+, but Dophade also spends 3 full pages on 7.Bd3 Bd6 8.0-0 0-0 9.Bg5 Bg4 10.Nbd2 Nbd7 11.c3 c6 12.Qc2 Qc7 .

I‘m not the man to decide about cutting edge theory, but imo there have recently been some developments in the line 3.d4 Nxe4 4.Bd3 d5 5.Nxe5 Nd7 6.Nc3, maybe Dhopade‘s choice 6...Nxc3 7.bxc3 Nxe5 8. dxe5 Bc5 (only 2 pages) isn‘t as safe as it was in 2019, White‘s attacking ideas are quite deep?!

Anyway, the real meat of Dhopade‘s book are Chapter 8-12 with coverage of the Marshall System 6...Bd6 in the Old main line and the Modern main line with 5.Nc3.
Therefore all serious Petroff players will need this book! If the book suits as stand-alone source or is just a necessary additional source, depends on the individual playing strengh, working methods, repertoire choices and the way you play the Petroff!?

So far I‘ve put four Chapters into my private files but haven’t found any analytical mistakes or typos.

tracke  Smiley
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #69 - 07/24/20 at 09:14:49
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Lol quite a discussion. I started the whole thing but I never meant to say it SHOULD be in the book, only that from a lower rated perspective some obscure sidelines are actually mainlines. And that from my individual perspective, there was some disappointment.

  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #68 - 07/24/20 at 08:41:50
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 07/24/20 at 06:11:44:
It depends on the audience.

Your argument fully applies to 3.h3 as well - a 2200+ player has had success with it and that's way above my level.  Tongue

Straggler wrote on 07/24/20 at 08:35:23:
In my games at patzer level,

At my patzer level nobody has ever played 3.Bc4 either. So what the people around you play must determine the content of an opening book? If not this is simply irrelevant.

Straggler wrote on 07/24/20 at 08:35:23:
(whereas no-one has ever played 3.h3);

So Xavier Delebarre is a nobody.

Straggler wrote on 07/24/20 at 08:35:23:
and, after 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6, 3.Nf3 is as common as 3.d3 or 3.Nc3. If Jänisch got it wrong I think it's reasonable to expect some guidance on it.

My comments are not about 3.Bc4 against the Petrov, but about other options than 3.Bc4 Nxe4 4.Nc3. You could have concluded that from

MNb wrote on 07/24/20 at 05:42:18:
Half a page on other moves than 4.Nc3 ! I'm sure theory on these options has radically changed since then.


Look, we've got it. Dhopade hasn't presented antidotes to 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Nxe4 other moves than 4.Nc3. Some serious people might be grateful for this incredibly important information but also suggest that it's time to move on. That's what I will do.
  

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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #67 - 07/24/20 at 08:35:23
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MW wrote on 07/24/20 at 03:57:58:
TNich wrote on 07/24/20 at 01:36:42:
Cohen simply does not cover the position after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3. Bc4.

Cohen does mention it note (B) at the bottom of page 61 

Thanks for pointing this out: I too was under the impression that Cohen didn't mention it. It's his own fault, really, since that note is in a chapter entitled "The Four Knights: Rare Continuations" and is not referenced in the table of variations. If the reader can't find it, it might as well not be there. (He recommends 3...Nxe4 4.Nxe5? d5.)

In my games at patzer level, 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bc4 is not at all uncommon (whereas no-one has ever played 3.h3); and, after 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6, 3.Nf3 is as common as 3.d3 or 3.Nc3. If Jänisch got it wrong I think it's reasonable to expect some guidance on it.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #66 - 07/24/20 at 06:11:44
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MNb wrote on 07/24/20 at 05:42:18:
kylemeister wrote on 07/24/20 at 02:23:31:
For the record it was also addressed in a Petroff-advocacy book from the 1960s, David Hooper's  A Complete Defence to 1. P-K4.  (He thought that after 3...Nxe4, 4. Qe2 is "objectively best, but futureless," and had the ostensible best-play lines as leading to equality.)


Now we're at it, so does IM Harding in his 1973 book Bishop's Opening. Half a page on other moves than 4.Nc3 ! I'm sure theory on these options has radically changed since then.
Another question, do those books on the Petrov's Defense deal with 3.h3 ? If not it's a serious omission, comparable with GM Nunn refusing to deal with 6...e5 in his Complete Najdorf 6.Bg5 book.  Tongue

A little heavy on the sarcasm for my taste. I already quoted from Harding's book before in this thread. As for whether books should cover sidelines, it depends on the audience. Books aimed at strong players should not, they would just find it annoying. Books aimed at club players most definitely should. As MW says, at his level the sidelines are actually the main lines. Even your Najdorf 6.Bg5 e5 example might deserve a mention in a book for club players; it could be instructive to show the punishment. No doubt some of them will actually face 6...e5.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #65 - 07/24/20 at 05:51:41
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Nxe4

I forgot about Janjgava, I own this book!

Janjgava (2001) The Petroff pages 7-10
covers -- 4.Nc3, 4.d3, 4.Qe2, and 4.Nxe5.
After 4.Nxe5 he gives both 4...d5 with 5.Qe2 leading to equality as in Harding (and probably Hooper); and 4...Qe7! (sic) then giving the same mistaken Jaenisch analysis as Harding (but Janjgava doesn't attribute it to anybody). On the whole quite good coverage of 3.Bc4. He even gives a novelty for white (!) in the Boden-Kieseritzky Gambit. Of course black can equalize anyway and Bologan shows how.

Hooper (1967) A Complete Defence to 1 P-K4
Cafferty and Hooper (1986) A Complete Defence to 1.e4, 2nd edition
I no longer have these books. One thing I remember is they have some coverage of Philidor's Defense, which I always thought was crazy to include in a Petroff repertoire book. Harding quotes extensively from Hooper. Jangjava gives some of the same variations as Harding but sometimes attributes them to Steinitz (instead of Hooper), and other times does not attribute them. I assume Steinitz means The Modern Chess Instructor. So it might be interesting to compare Hooper with Steinitz.

I also looked in some 2...Nc6 repertoire books, of course they all use the Bishop's Opening move order, 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nxe4.
  • Bologan (2014) Bologan's Black Weapons in the Open Games pages 68-70 -- only 4.Nc3
  • Lokander (2015) opening repertoire: the Open Games with Black - no mention of 3.Nf3
  • Ntirlis (2016) Playing 1.e4 e5: A Classical Repertoire -- no mention of 3.Nf3
  • Johnsen (2018) How to Beat the Open Games pages 217-218 -- 4.Nc3, and 4.Nxe5. Of 4.Nxe5 he says only "There's no need to analyse 4.Nxe5?! d5; Black is already better." Not too helpful.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #64 - 07/24/20 at 05:42:18
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kylemeister wrote on 07/24/20 at 02:23:31:
For the record it was also addressed in a Petroff-advocacy book from the 1960s, David Hooper's  A Complete Defence to 1. P-K4.  (He thought that after 3...Nxe4, 4. Qe2 is "objectively best, but futureless," and had the ostensible best-play lines as leading to equality.)


Now we're at it, so does IM Harding in his 1973 book Bishop's Opening. Half a page on other moves than 4.Nc3 ! I'm sure theory on these options has radically changed since then.
Another question, do those books on the Petrov's Defense deal with 3.h3 ? If not it's a serious omission, comparable with GM Nunn refusing to deal with 6...e5 in his Complete Najdorf 6.Bg5 book.  Tongue
  

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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #63 - 07/24/20 at 04:21:20
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TNich wrote on 07/24/20 at 01:36:42:
Lakdawala in both 'The Petroff: Move by Move' and 'Opening Repertoire: The Petroff' fails to cover the position after 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nxe4.


Also just checked Lakdawala's two books....in his Move by Move book game 46 starting page 382 offers some coverage but only with 4 Nc3.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #62 - 07/24/20 at 03:57:58
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TNich wrote on 07/24/20 at 01:36:42:
Cohen simply does not cover the position after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3. Bc4.


Cohen does mention it note (B) at the bottom of page 61
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #61 - 07/24/20 at 02:23:31
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For the record it was also addressed in a Petroff-advocacy book from the 1960s, David Hooper's  A Complete Defence to 1. P-K4.  (He thought that after 3...Nxe4, 4. Qe2 is "objectively best, but futureless," and had the ostensible best-play lines as leading to equality.)
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #60 - 07/24/20 at 01:36:42
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Cohen simply does not cover the position after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3. Bc4.
The move order he uses for the bishop opening is 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 and after 2.Nf6 he doesn't mention 3.Nf3 at all. Instead, He offers 3.d4 and 3.d3.
Curiously, The Bishop's Opening is not well covered in Petroff repertoire books.
Lakdawala in both 'The Petroff: Move by Move' and 'Opening Repertoire: The Petroff' fails to cover the position after 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nxe4.
Other books not covering the position are:
The Petroff: an Expert Repertoire for Black - Sakaev.
Petroff Defence - Raetsky & Chetverik
Petroff's Defence - Fornitos & Haag

So kudos to the following authors who do cover it:
The Petroff Defence - Yusupov
The Petroff - Janjgava
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #59 - 07/24/20 at 01:09:08
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Thanks, but black played 3...Nxe4, so 5.exd5 is out of the question.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 (or 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.Nf3) 2...Nf6 3.Nf3 Nxe4 4.Nxe5, 4...d5, is it?
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #58 - 07/23/20 at 23:46:23
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 07/23/20 at 22:55:23:
What move does Cohen give on black's fourth?


Cohen recommends 4...d5 5.exd5 Bb4+
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #57 - 07/23/20 at 22:55:23
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MW wrote on 07/23/20 at 00:53:23:
Chapter 1 is a bit disappointing because it's on the thin side. At my level 3.Bc4?! is almost a mainline and after 3...Nxe4 the most played line is 4.Nxe5. I know black should be happy here but there are some moves that can be tricky. Cohen did cover a lot more here, Dhopade doesn't even mention 4.Nxe5.

Surprisingly tricky!

1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nxe4
Harding says 4.Nxe5? loses a pawn for nothing after 4...Qe7!. Part of his analysis (not the pawn-winning part) quotes Jaenisch: 5.d4 d6 6.Bxf7+ Kd8 7.O-O dxe5 8.dxe5+ Bd7 9.Bd5 Nc5 -+ "for if 10.b4 c6 or if 10.f4 Kc8 - Jaenisch". -- Harding (1973) Bishop's Opening, page 32

Deep Shredder actually thinks 5.Bxf7+ Kd8 6.d4 d6 7.O-O dxe5 8.dxe5+ Bd7 9.Bd5 Nc5 represents best play from 4...Qe7 (good job Jaenisch!), but overturns the evaluation with 10.e6 c6 11.exd7 cxd5 12.Nc3 Qxd7 13.Nxd5 and white is a hair worse than equal. There is also 10.e6 c6 11.Bc4 b5 12.exd7 bxc4 13.Re1 Qxd7 14.Qh5 and this time white is a hair better than equal. Since white has only one pawn for the knight, I conclude black's game is not easy! We can hardly fault Jaenisch for thinking black was winning. He never had to face an engine!

Deep Shredder thinks 4...d5 is best, when Harding gives 5.Qe2!= (transposing to 4.Qe2 d5 5.Nxe5), backed up by a fair amount of analysis. What move does Cohen give on black's fourth?
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #56 - 07/23/20 at 14:14:57
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Dhopade recommends the 6...Bd6 line. His mainline being 7.0-0 0-0 8.c4 c6.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #55 - 07/23/20 at 12:39:12
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Somehow I trust a guy like Cohen, who has vast experience with and love for the Petroff, over a super-talented youngster exploring the opening with a database and computer. I have Cohen; if anyone has both books, I'd love to know where the newer book deviates from Cohen's absolute main line in the 3...Nxe5 complex (his Chapter 20, part 3).
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #54 - 07/23/20 at 00:53:23
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Chapter 1 is a bit disappointing because it's on the thin side. At my level 3.Bc4?! is almost a mainline and after 3...Nxe4 the most played line is 4.Nxe5. I know black should be happy here but there are some moves that can be tricky. Cohen did cover a lot more here, Dhopade doesn't even mention 4.Nxe5.

This move order isn't mention in several of the other books I have on the Petroff either....I did find a few games in my database where it has been played by 2000+ players but white's results are terrible. I had a look at Cohen's book and I think if you know his analysis you shouldn't have any trouble....black just gets a good game.

All the best.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #53 - 07/22/20 at 17:44:47
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I also received my copy today. Here are my first impressions from a lower rated perspective (disclaimer: I know I shouldn't study openings, but I like to have repertoire books as reference and find it fun).

- Chapter 1 is a bit disappointing because it's on the thin side. At my level 3.Bc4?! is almost a mainline and after 3...Nxe4 the most played line is 4.Nxe5. I know black should be happy here but there are some moves that can be tricky. Cohen did cover a lot more here, Dhopade doesn't even mention 4.Nxe5.
- In chapter 1 I also expected a bit more from The Russian Three Knights in a sense that 4.d3 and 4.Bc4 aren't covered and they are by far the mainline at my level. I must admit in the time that I played it online it got me some good and easy positions. 5.d3  and 5.Bc4 are briefly mentioned so maybe they often transpose. Except when white doesn't take on e5.
- I'm quite happy with the 5.Qe2 chapter. I see this alot online and can have trouble with finding a plan. This chapter gave me some ideas to play with. For example I never even considered playing Na6 to c7 lol. This chapter is also more detailed than other resources on this line that start very early with ' and black is fine here'.
- The traditional mainline looks quite the same as Sielecki's. I'm excited to try the short castling and c5 stuff from the modern mainline.
- I like the proposed repertoire against the King's Gambit. I always played the Schallop Defense but the positions felt always felt pretty weird to me and hard to learn. This looks more straight forward.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #52 - 07/18/20 at 20:44:29
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Thanks for all your help and input. Looking forward to receiving my copy and sounds like I'm going to enjoy working my way through the content.
All the best.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #51 - 07/18/20 at 08:53:44
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@doefmat: Surely my English writing is often not precise enough - hopefully it is clear that my critique points are no complaints but should help to characterize the book! The quality team had an idea about how the book should be written and the author fullfilled that task very well or even better!
But it‘s the right of all potential (but not mainly targeted ) consumers to know if the book is suitable for them ... And maybe QC (or other publishers) would sell 20% more books if they‘d changed their idea of an ideal chess book for 1% !?
This book is a very good book! Probably even 1600 level Petroff players could and should buy it. But they should stick mainly to their Lakdawala book to „understand“ and use this one only as additional source?!

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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #50 - 07/18/20 at 08:04:31
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Hallo MW, I‘m almost twenty years less wise than you and my interest for the Petroff only began with Kramnik‘s games (in general) and then again with the books from Sakaev and Cohen. Meanwhile I purchased back to the 1990s as many of these partly outdated books cover sidelines more completely and/or are still instructive (especially Yusupov with his >200 test positions). -

Regarding Dophade’s coverage of the Modern Main Line with 10...c5 you cannot see from the abridged Variation index that Chapter 11 has 2 pages about 11.h3 &11.h4, 2 pages about 11.c4?! b5! and 3 pages about 11.Bg5 & conclusion. With 11.Bg5 being very sharp with a forced draw in long lines, maybe best but impractical ?!
The 10...c5 fashion is understandable but my personal choice is the solid 10...Re8 (no special source, mainly corr games). It looks passive but has hold in otb and corr. Of course it‘s dead drawish, too, but there are not so many long forced variations and in the resulting rook endings with equal material it‘s possible to grind out ill-prepared weaker players, at least in rapid! Lately even Caruana has experimented with 10...Re8 though he lost rapid against Carlsen!? -

Dophade‘s coverage of the Russian Three Knights (11 pages) looks promising. He concentrates on ...d6 structures (often with ...b6), gives clear strategic advice and seems to equalize completely against both Sielecki(2018) and Khalifman/Soloviov(2019)?!

A bigger (practical) problem might be the topical endgame from Chapter 8 (10.Qb3 Qd7 11.Nc3 Nxc3 12.Bxf5 Qxf5 13.Qxb7 Qd7 14.Qxd7 Nxd7 15.c5! Bxh2+! etc.) which has vanished from elite play. I do not object to Dophade’s choice (Anand-Fedoseev, WaZ 2019, 21...Nd7=) or his evaluation and comments, but one page is really nothing to understand this difficult endgame! I played this endgame twice in corr (both 17...Rfc8 and 17...Rfe8) and was able to defend, but in ways I don’t want to repeat otb! Imo this equal/unclear endgame should have been treated on several pages (as the Panov endgame in the books from Aagaard and Schandorff!?). -

Dophade’s choice to accept gambits like Göring and Danish doesn’t seem typical or practical for Petroff players?!
Maybe I‘m crazy or too tired now, but I can‘t see any single word (or an obvious transposition) regarding 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d4?! or 2.d4 exd4 3.Bc4?!, the Urusov doesn’t seem to exist for GMs? I understand that the „slighty less detailed section“ of non-2.Nf3 lines is just an extra to the Petroff coverage but one black move and a recommendation to look at Ntirlis/Khalifman/Lokander/... wouldn’t hurt.
Coverage of Vienna and Bishop Game (with 3.d3) seems fine though I‘m waiting for the first volume of Italian Renaissance (august?)

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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #49 - 07/18/20 at 07:15:00
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Funny that you guys mention the lack of comments. He said the following in an interview:

"First, I myself tried to understand the opening as deeply as possible and tried to figure out which variations are challenging and what’s exactly trending. Then I picked up the lines which I felt will be relatively easier for the audience to learn, to follow, and to remember as well. Because I may give a thousand lines, but if the readers are unable to remember them comfortably, then it is basically of no use. Keeping that in mind, I tried to include lines where the reader will be able to remember stuff quite easily. But of course, there are some lines that contain a lot of dynamism. The moves are so concrete that if you forget a move, the position could become really messy. In such situations, I tried to put a lot of comments explaining the important moves that are somewhat difficult to remember and those that don’t come easily to our intuition. I tried to highlight the ideas as deeply as possible with the correct comments. If you remember the comments, then the chances of remembering the moves are also quite high. My main focus was on suggesting some good solid lines, but even in the lines which are a bit challenging and dynamic in nature, I added a lot of comments so that the readers could remember them for a long time."

https://followchess.com/news/one-to-one-with-swapnil-dhopade-petroff-chess-coach...

I'm also waiting for my pre-ordered copy. I always thought that pre-ordering had some benefit in getting the material early. But I noticed some of the local chess webshops (in the Netherlands) already have the book in stock.

I'm very curious about the part where he suggests Bb4 instead of going for the Four Knights.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #48 - 07/18/20 at 06:17:21
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Chapter 11 introduces 5.Nc3 and covers sidelines and deviations up to move 11, including your three and also 11.h3. I agree that a few strategically placed comments indicating playable alternatives would have been helpful, but overall this book looks like a fine piece of work.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #47 - 07/17/20 at 23:16:04
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Thanks tracke, really appreciate your time and detailed response. I ordered directly from QC and it is on the way so I'm hoping my wait won't be too long.

The author is not a known Petroff player so its probably not surprising that it is well analysed but the supporting commentary is a little thin. I've played the Petroff on and off since I was 17 which I'm sad to say is 50 odd years ago. Back then the 6...Bd6 line was all the rage so coupled with my French (exchange) experience I'm not too worried about the lack of explanations or a second option as I have a pretty good understanding of the positions arising from these variations.

However, Chapter 12 and the choice of 10....c5 does surprise me a little as it seems to be a fairly recent try and it looks a little suspicious, to me anyway. I certainly would have liked an alternative here although having purchased most books written on the Pertoff's over the last 50 odd years plus the Chessable course I do have options if needed.

I see the index summary provided by QC only seems to offer 11 Kb1 or 11 Rhe1 but there are other options such as 11 h4, 11 c4, and 11 Bg5 so just wondering whether there is any coverage of these either directly or through transposition? 

Once again many thanks for all your help.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #46 - 07/17/20 at 21:38:58
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My little and long awaited February-to-July-Chess-Things-Parcel arrived this morning with NiCs, Infs, CBMs, Kotronias, Hausrath, Burgess, Pavlovic, Odessky, Sedlak and more  Cheesy
After two hours of intensive glancing at S. Dophade now only some remarks, the other books are waiting ...

This Petroff book is definitely a good one! Probably a very good one!? Certainly a must buy for any Petroff player ~1800-2400 !
It‘s very analytical with many little improvements and a lot of new (and seemingly good and useful) ideas. Since 2017 I‘ve followed Petroff theory very closely and even
played it in corr master class (drawing all games), regarding correctness of analysis I don’t see any problem.
Complains could start about the narrow repertoire, almost always only one black option. And most often you don‘t get to know if the recommend move ist the only one (and the last but sufficent black try) or if Dophades choice is an interesting and unclear try while three other solid equalizers exist. Sometimes many Petroff players would prefer other continuations of equal value. Often there’s no tendency to avoid dead positions or forced draws. And then, next subvariation, the author has a spicy idea in a well-known boring position. Not much strategical explanations, the evaluations at the end of the variations may be difficult to grasp for club players!? It‘s sometimes debatable if an 2000 or 1800 player could „understand“ a given variation. Or memorize a complicated one. It‘s difficult to decide if this book can be used as first introduction or as a stand-alone source for a Petroff newbie!? Or if it‘s just a necessary update?
I wouldn’t call these points disadvantages, probably it‘s just the trade mark of Qualitys Playing-the-series. The author got the task to write a concrete and correct and narrow black rep in the Petroff according to certain criteria given by the QC team, and with this his first book he fullfilled this task perfectly well, to 100 or even 110%!!
If you rate this book with 3,5 or 4 or 4,5 or 5 stars (out of 5), mainly depends on your playing strengh, your preferred working style, the role of the Petroff in your anti-e4-rep, your existing knowledge of the Petroff and so on.
Anyway, given the huge amount of analytical input any black Petroff player >1800 will need this book!

tracke  Smiley

PS: As long as I‘m not occupied with the other books, I of course can answer some general or detailed questions concerning variations. As usual no endless detailed questions, as the publishers and authors deserves the copies to be bought! (Maybe this time some extra questions to the end of world?  Wink  )
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #45 - 07/16/20 at 19:39:32
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With this book now starting to hit the shelves I would be interested in hearing anyone's first impressions?

I pre-ordered my copy a few weeks back, but with living down under and COVID considerably slowing the mail to these parts it could be a couple more weeks before I receive it.

Thanks
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #44 - 06/01/20 at 14:56:27
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15th of july release date
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #43 - 04/22/20 at 08:01:18
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doefmat wrote on 04/22/20 at 07:57:33:
You can try caissabase. It's currently 4.02 million games, updated every few months with TWIC games. And it's free.
                   

Thanks for this! I think I noticed it in the past and was put off by it being SCID, but I've just seen that you can export the games to ChessBase anyway ...
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #42 - 04/22/20 at 07:57:33
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You can try caissabase. It's currently 4.02 million games, updated every few months with TWIC games. And it's free.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #41 - 04/22/20 at 07:46:50
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MNb wrote on 04/21/20 at 20:53:20:
Michael Ayton wrote yesterday at 18:31:
I have only an ancient version of ChessBase (and at the moment not even that, but only ChessBase Reader 2017 as I'm away from home for a while ...)

So do I, added with updates lfrom sources ike TWIC. So I recommend  to check my results with your own database; if the results are about the same it's likely that they are reliable.

H'mm, how accurate a picture can an examination of the latest TWIC(s) supplemented by one's own database give, I wonder, of the latest stats for an opening? Maybe it's the best one can get? Anyone?
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #40 - 04/21/20 at 20:53:20
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Michael Ayton wrote on 04/21/20 at 17:31:03:
I have only an ancient version of ChessBase (and at the moment not even that, but only ChessBase Reader 2017 as I'm away from home for a while ...)

So do I, added with updates lfrom sources ike TWIC. So I recommend  to check my results with your own database; if the results are about the same it's likely that they are reliable.

TopNotch wrote on 04/21/20 at 19:40:14:
Strangely enough I have noticed that the simple 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nc3 tends to annoy many amateur Petroff players,

Out of comfort zone, I suppose. It's a good reason to buy Khalifman's/Soloviov's book, even if the Ruy Lopez is your main weapon; it allows White to avoid the dreaded Berlin Wall too.
Off topic: I find it funny that the subtitble is "a solid strategic approach" with the aim of "squeezing 1.e4 e5" while quite often play gets very tactical. Of course I realize this is a false dilemma.
  

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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #39 - 04/21/20 at 19:40:14
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MartinC wrote on 04/21/20 at 08:46:55:
Definitely agree about the 5 Nc3 endings.

I can still remember being amazed to see that white could hope to squeeze some of those.

Exactly.

MNb wrote on 04/21/20 at 11:29:47:
Has a remedy been found against that piece sac line with 9...Bxa2 ? Were I to pick up the Petrov it definitely would be my first option to consider.

I never found a clear refutation, the engine tends to like White by a lot but it remains a mess and I wouldn't want it in an otb game.

Strangely enough I have noticed that the simple 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nc3 tends to annoy many amateur Petroff players, as often for some reason they don't want to transpose back into the Four Knights with 3...Nc6 preferring instead the weaker 3...Bb4. What does Dhopade propose against 3.Nc3.
  

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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #38 - 04/21/20 at 17:31:03
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MNb wrote on 04/20/20 at 21:07:36:
The percentagaes I gave remain what they are. Fun fact: on the same level (ELO from 1000 - 2000) Black wins 38% of the games in the French Exchange.

What database(s) are you using to generate this and other sterling info, MNb? Is it the database you get with/in ChessBase if you pay for it? You'll have to forgive my dimwittedness here -- I have only an ancient version of ChessBase (and at the moment not even that, but only ChessBase Reader 2017 as I'm away from home for a while ...)
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #37 - 04/21/20 at 11:29:47
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Has a remedy been found against that piece sac line with 9...Bxa2 ? Were I to pick up the Petrov it definitely would be my first option to consider.
  

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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #36 - 04/21/20 at 08:46:55
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Definitely agree about the 5 Nc3 endings.

I can still remember being amazed to see that white could hope to squeeze some of those.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #35 - 04/20/20 at 21:26:16
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LeeRoth wrote on 04/20/20 at 14:16:31:
Every time we have a discussion over whether openings are good or bad for amateurs, I think of the following:  "At amateur level, all the main openings are good, as long as you get your pieces out."  Forget where I heard this or which GM said it, but the Petroff clearly makes the cut.  After all, there can't be too much wrong with the open piece place, sound structure, etc., which characterize the old main lines.  At amateur levels, if you get the pieces out and start fighting, good things tend to happen. 

That said, I'm not sure how often Black actually gets to see the old main lines.  When you get to levels where people are reading repertoire books, I imagine that Black will see 5.Nc3 most often.  That Carlsen-Caruana game was terrifying, and, at amateur level, the 5.Nc3 line seems to give White hackers exactly what they want -- a chance to castle long and fling pawns mindlessly at the enemy king.  It takes a certain kind of Black player to be willing to play into this on a regular basis.  If it doesn't bother you, then godspeed.

This analogy may not completely work, but to me, the Petroff seems a lot like the French.  People are attracted to the main lines -- the old main lines of the Petroff and the Winawer or the McCutcheon in the French -- but can't get them on the board as often as they like.  The alternatives are not "antis" that leave White worse than the main lines, but dangerous systems in and of themselves (such as the Tarrasch or the Steinitz), and, in addition, there is a "drawing" line that can be annoying.  Yet, there are people who love the French, so why not the Petroff too?       


That 5.Nc3 line has been hyped a lot but below Master level I think white has more interesting choices. The thing is against 5.Nc3 Black doesn't have to go kingside, he can meet 0-0-0 plans with 0-0-0 and 0-0 plans with 0-0 the so called mirror strategy and those positions require a lot of skill to get more than a half point as White. Amateurs tend to get all caught up in regurgitating the trends of elite players, but when choosing suitable opening lines for the level opposition one will likely face, it is often necessary to cast your net wider.

Finding sound lines that are psychologically unpleasant for the opponent is a useful skill to have, and Petroff players on the low end of the spectrum are usually looking for a simple game, trade a few pieces, head for an ending and see what turns up. To avoid the previously mentioned scenario, White often loses his mind trying to generate something, black then collects the point and goes away thinking isn't the Petroff grand.

Clearly facing the Petroff requires a lot of thought beforehand if you want to confidently fight for the win instead of having to give up an easy half point, therefore you need something in your pocket against it, as trying to wing it at the Board is likely to backfire badly. So lets do our facing Petroff checklist:

1) Aim for asymmetrical structure - check
2) Avoid unnecessary exchanges - check
3) Opposite side castling if possible - check
4) IQP positions should not be feared - check
5) Be patient, Rome wasn't built in a day - check
6) If all else fails do not self destruct, allow the half point - check Smiley
  

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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #34 - 04/20/20 at 21:07:36
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Again, if an amateur loves the Petrov so much that he/she thinks he/she's an exception, by all means play it. The percentagaes I gave remain what they are. Fun fact: on the same level (ELO from 1000 - 2000) Black wins 38% of the games in the French Exchange. Do with it what you want.
Btw I don't think the French and the Alekhine are particularly good defenses for many amateurs. TopNotch claimed that they display FIghting Spirit and that's not entirely the same.
  

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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #33 - 04/20/20 at 14:16:31
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Every time we have a discussion over whether openings are good or bad for amateurs, I think of the following:  "At amateur level, all the main openings are good, as long as you get your pieces out."  Forget where I heard this or which GM said it, but the Petroff clearly makes the cut.  After all, there can't be too much wrong with the open piece place, sound structure, etc., which characterize the old main lines.  At amateur levels, if you get the pieces out and start fighting, good things tend to happen. 

That said, I'm not sure how often Black actually gets to see the old main lines.  When you get to levels where people are reading repertoire books, I imagine that Black will see 5.Nc3 most often.  That Carlsen-Caruana game was terrifying, and, at amateur level, the 5.Nc3 line seems to give White hackers exactly what they want -- a chance to castle long and fling pawns mindlessly at the enemy king.  It takes a certain kind of Black player to be willing to play into this on a regular basis.  If it doesn't bother you, then godspeed.

This analogy may not completely work, but to me, the Petroff seems a lot like the French.  People are attracted to the main lines -- the old main lines of the Petroff and the Winawer or the McCutcheon in the French -- but can't get them on the board as often as they like.  The alternatives are not "antis" that leave White worse than the main lines, but dangerous systems in and of themselves (such as the Tarrasch or the Steinitz), and, in addition, there is a "drawing" line that can be annoying.  Yet, there are people who love the French, so why not the Petroff too? 


    
            



 





  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #32 - 04/20/20 at 12:42:31
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doefmat wrote on 04/20/20 at 07:48:50:
Smells fishy? Do you mean that those numbers are 'fake' ? lol

The Lichess online database are online games played on Lichess. It has nothing to do with OTB games. Those games are played by 'weak' amateurs playing online bullet/blitz/rapid.

I only used it to give it as example to show that for weak amateurs like me the draw rate is very low, in any opening.

Okay, but we expect the draw rate to be zero in bullet, tiny in blitz, and very small in rapid, so opening draw rate is dominated by the format.

I took a look at this lichess database. After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5, black played 3...d6 only 65% of the time. The second most popular move was 3...Qe7 at 13%, and it's downhill from there. People are just messing around, so I'm not sure we can draw *any* useful conclusions from the data.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #31 - 04/20/20 at 12:41:52
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I meant that the numbers you gave strongly suggested that there was soemthing wrong and pointed out that we can't check how reliable the numbers of Lichess are. Thanks for specifying what exactly is wrong. Your conclusion doesn't follow, except for "weak amateurs playing online bullet/blitz/rapid" obviously.
  

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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #30 - 04/20/20 at 07:48:50
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MNb wrote on 04/20/20 at 06:47:29:
doefmat wrote on 04/19/20 at 17:48:22:
I don't know what amateur level you are talking about, but if you open up for example the online Lichess database (non-master) both Nc6 and Nf6 after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 have a winrate for white of 50% and a winrate for black of 45%.

Smellls very fishy. This would mean that only 5% of the games end with a draw. So I checked my database. The big plus is that everyone can do it for him/herself and hence reproduce these numbers. When consulting a source like Lichess we depend on the builders of that database. Everyone can decide which numbers are more reliable, mine or those of Lichess.

TopNotch wrote on 04/20/20 at 01:37:46:
My point is I don't consider The Petroff a fighting Defence, it's played more as a way not to lose than an attempt to generate winning chances

This is testable. Eg 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4

- 5.d3 Black wins 27%,
- 5.d4  18%,
- 5.Nc3 17%
- 5.Qe2 Black wins 23%.

For ELO ratings between 1000 and 2000 these percentages are predictably higher; Black still has the least winning chances against 5. Nc3 (26%).
The games are randomly selected by sources like TWIC and others; all populations were much larger than 100, so no manipulation involved.
In the same ELO range Black wins 38% with the Alekhine Defense. I'd say the difference is signiificant and confirms your view.

Disclaimer: such general results say nothing about individual chessplayers, just like the occasional heavy smoker who dies at 90 says nothing about the risk of lung cancer. If you think you're one of the exceptions, play the Petrov by all means.



Smells fishy? Do you mean that those numbers are 'fake' ? lol

The Lichess online database are online games played on Lichess. It has nothing to do with OTB games. Those games are played by 'weak' amateurs playing online bullet/blitz/rapid.

I only used it to give it as example to show that for weak amateurs like me the draw rate is very low, in any opening.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #29 - 04/20/20 at 06:47:29
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doefmat wrote on 04/19/20 at 17:48:22:
I don't know what amateur level you are talking about, but if you open up for example the online Lichess database (non-master) both Nc6 and Nf6 after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 have a winrate for white of 50% and a winrate for black of 45%.

Smellls very fishy. This would mean that only 5% of the games end with a draw. So I checked my database. The big plus is that everyone can do it for him/herself and hence reproduce these numbers. When consulting a source like Lichess we depend on the builders of that database. Everyone can decide which numbers are more reliable, mine or those of Lichess.

TopNotch wrote on 04/20/20 at 01:37:46:
My point is I don't consider The Petroff a fighting Defence, it's played more as a way not to lose than an attempt to generate winning chances

This is testable. Eg 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4

- 5.d3 Black wins 27%,
- 5.d4  18%,
- 5.Nc3 17%
- 5.Qe2 Black wins 23%.

For ELO ratings between 1000 and 2000 these percentages are predictably higher; Black still has the least winning chances against 5. Nc3 (26%).
The games are randomly selected by sources like TWIC and others; all populations were much larger than 100, so no manipulation involved.
In the same ELO range Black wins 38% with the Alekhine Defense. I'd say the difference is signiificant and confirms your view.

Disclaimer: such general results say nothing about individual chessplayers, just like the occasional heavy smoker who dies at 90 says nothing about the risk of lung cancer. If you think you're one of the exceptions, play the Petrov by all means.
  

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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #28 - 04/20/20 at 06:32:04
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TopNotch wrote on 04/20/20 at 01:37:46:
My point is I don't consider The Petroff a fighting Defence, it's played more as a way not to lose than an attempt to generate winning chances

This is testable. Eg 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4

- 5.d3 Black wins 27%,
- 5.d4  18%,
- 5.Nc3 17%
- 5.Qe2 Black wins 23%.
  

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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #27 - 04/20/20 at 01:37:46
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MW wrote on 04/20/20 at 01:06:34:
TopNotch wrote on 04/19/20 at 18:32:07:
I mean as Black would you want this position against a weaker player: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.Qe2


Using this variation didn't work too well for Kramnik (who rate wise was the stronger player) against Caruana in the 2018 Berlin Candidates....and looking through the database at some of the positions black has achieved in the late middle game/early endgame I would very much like to have them against weaker white opposition...

I guess if you think about it you wouldn't play the French Defence against weaker opposition because of the exchange variation nor I guess the Slav again the dreaded exchange variation (even Sam Shankland on Chess24 Banta today said black just has to be patient and hope his opponent plays inaccurately)  and even in the King's Indian Main Line white can exchange on e5 on move 7....and I'm sure the list goes on.

So I don't think the Petroff is the only opening that white can try and kill the game.....regardless of the position good players can generally find a way to make it difficult for their opponent and that applies to the Petroff as well.


I followed that game live on chess24 when it was being played, the problem was that Kramnik was actually playing for a win with that variation that's why he got into trouble, had his mindset been different he could have drawn easily, Fabi admitted as much after the game. Actually now that you bring up that game, I remember Fabi being asked in the post interview about his phenomenal winning record with the Petroff and to paraphrase he said 'It's because they're all trying to beat me, if White is content for a draw there are many ways' that says it all.

The other examples: French, Slav, KID are all fighting defences, but White can choose not to engage and try to find drawing lines if he likes. My point is I don't consider The Petroff a fighting Defence, it's played more as a way not to lose than an attempt to generate winning chances, and if wins do come it's tends to be more about White doing something stupid than Black doing something Brilliant.

To reiterate though The Petroff when paired with something else can be quite a useful tool in ones repertoire, but note even Fabi has given it a rest since his match with Magnus and I don't think that's not by accident.
  

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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #26 - 04/20/20 at 01:06:34
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TopNotch wrote on 04/19/20 at 18:32:07:
I mean as Black would you want this position against a weaker player: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.Qe2


Using this variation didn't work too well for Kramnik (who rate wise was the stronger player) against Caruana in the 2018 Berlin Candidates....and looking through the database at some of the positions black has achieved in the late middle game/early endgame I would very much like to have them against weaker white opposition...

I guess if you think about it you wouldn't play the French Defence against weaker opposition because of the exchange variation nor I guess the Slav again the dreaded exchange variation (even Sam Shankland on Chess24 Banta today said black just has to be patient and hope his opponent plays inaccurately)  and even in the King's Indian Main Line white can exchange on e5 on move 7....and I'm sure the list goes on.

So I don't think the Petroff is the only opening that white can try and kill the game.....regardless of the position good players can generally find a way to make it difficult for their opponent and that applies to the Petroff as well.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #25 - 04/19/20 at 21:33:30
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Sometimes I make counterpoints just to keep things interesting. Despite that bad habit, I mostly agree with you, and this last post I agree with every single point you made.

TopNotch wrote on 04/19/20 at 18:32:07:
... as Black would you want this position against a weaker player: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.Qe2 or 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4 Nxe4 4.Bd3 d5 5.Nxe5 Nd7 6.Nxf7 or am I overstating things.

Not overstating at all. I know one master who gave up the Petroff because of the Cozio. I've thought of taking it up with white, just to "punish" people who dare the Petroff.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #24 - 04/19/20 at 18:32:07
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doefmat wrote on 04/19/20 at 17:48:22:
I don't know what amateur level you are talking about, but if you open up for example the online Lichess database (non-master) both Nc6 and Nf6 after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 have a winrate for white of 50% and a winrate for black of 45%.

Even if you filter it to longer time controls and higher ratings they both have the same stats.

Maybe at the 'high' club OTB level it makes a difference but as far as my experience goes with the Petroff you avoid some theory, get a relative open classical game and a playable position out of the opening. And then chess has to be played.

IMO as a 1500-1700 player a very practical and fine opening.

I also don't see a problem with playing simple positions. They are also a part of chess that has to be practiced and mastered.


Thanks for your contribution to the debate, I was a bit surprised, as nowadays this forum moves so unbearably slowly that I have long moved on to more stimulating pastures. However being sequestered at home prompted a return.

Having got that out of the way, I don't like relying heavily on chess stats to make a point, stats can be too easily manipulated to support whatever position you like. If you go by stats The BDG, Latvian and Elephant Gambit are fantastic openings at amateur level, while objectively the reality is completely different.

I am not saying that some amateurs won't like the simplicity of the Petroff, I'm saying that most will not and I don't see it ever becoming popular at that level. Sure amateurs should learn how to play symmetrical structures, they also should spend more time on endgames but most of them will never do it, the lure of winning quickly with some trappy opening is just too strong.

For sure the Petroff has some potential to score well below master level, since as mentioned in a previous post many White players freak out against it. But lets say the Petroff were to become popular at lower levels, I think it's appeal would soon wear thin as they are too many ways to kill off the game, I mean as Black would you want this position against a weaker player: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.Qe2 or 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4 Nxe4 4.Bd3 d5 5.Nxe5 Nd7 6.Nxf7
or am I overstating things.
  

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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #23 - 04/19/20 at 17:48:22
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I don't know what amateur level you are talking about, but if you open up for example the online Lichess database (non-master) both Nc6 and Nf6 after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 have a winrate for white of 50% and a winrate for black of 45%.

Even if you filter it to longer time controls and higher ratings they both have the same stats.

Maybe at the 'high' club OTB level it makes a difference but as far as my experience goes with the Petroff you avoid some theory, get a relative open classical game and a playable position out of the opening. And then chess has to be played.

IMO as a 1500-1700 player a very practical and fine opening.

I also don't see a problem with playing simple positions. They are also a part of chess that has to be practiced and mastered.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #22 - 04/19/20 at 13:59:20
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TopNotch wrote on 04/19/20 at 13:10:10:
Symmetrical positions tend to simplify prematurely and lead to dull positions with limited plans, most amateurs tend to instinctively shy away from such scenarios, but again there will be exceptions.

I think people's instincts in such matters are generally not great, and they should try to adopt a more evidence-based approach. From the standpoint of comparative advantage, for every player who does worse in symmetrical positions, there is another player who does better. Or would do better, if they bothered to find out.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #21 - 04/19/20 at 13:10:10
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 04/19/20 at 03:05:17:
TopNotch wrote on 04/18/20 at 23:41:20:
I too have the Pet in my Rep ...

I can't explain it, but this usage of "Pet" really bothers me. (But "Rep" doesn't, go figure.) Please stop.

TopNotch wrote on 04/18/20 at 23:41:20:
Suitable Black openings at amateur level are generally the ones that avoid excessive symmetry, as asymmetrical openings give less experienced opponents more opportunity to go seriously wrong.

I think this is not true in every case. Many amateur players will do better in asymmetrical defenses, but some amateur players would do great in symmetrical defenses. The problem is that even the players in category B hate symmetrical defenses, and avoid them like the plague. They never give themselves the opportunity to find out if they would do well there. And if they accidentally find themselves drifting towards such a position, their hatred overwhelms their common sense, and they lash out early to "break the symmetry". That's a sure-fire way to go down in flames, thus reinforcing their incorrect notions about symmetrical positions.

Edited:
Changed one instance of is to was.


Fair enough regarding the Petroff abbreviation, I see how that
could be annoying as I too hate seeing terms like AFAIK, IMHO, BTW, AMA, IDK, IIRC to name  but a few posted in the forum, its a lazy habit which selfishly presumes the reader is au fait with all this internet jargon and social media short cuts.

My point regarding asymmetrical openings for amateurs was meant to be taken as in general not absolute, there will of course always be exceptions. Symmetrical positions tend to simplify prematurely and lead to dull positions with limited plans, most amateurs tend to instinctively shy away from such scenarios, but again there will be exceptions. Against the Petroff at amateur level, it is a good idea psychologically to choose a line that changes the pawn structure, doesn't matter that much if you get a theoretical edge or not, at that level the most important factor is to control the terrain.
  

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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #20 - 04/19/20 at 03:05:17
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TopNotch wrote on 04/18/20 at 23:41:20:
I too have the Pet in my Rep ...

I can't explain it, but this usage of "Pet" really bothers me. (But "Rep" doesn't, go figure.) Please stop.

TopNotch wrote on 04/18/20 at 23:41:20:
Suitable Black openings at amateur level are generally the ones that avoid excessive symmetry, as asymmetrical openings give less experienced opponents more opportunity to go seriously wrong.

I think this is not true in every case. Many amateur players will do better in asymmetrical defenses, but some amateur players would do great in symmetrical defenses. The problem is that even the players in category B hate symmetrical defenses, and avoid them like the plague. They never give themselves the opportunity to find out if they would do well there. And if they accidentally find themselves drifting towards such a position, their hatred overwhelms their common sense, and they lash out early to "break the symmetry". That's a sure-fire way to go down in flames, thus reinforcing their incorrect notions about symmetrical positions.

It turns out I belong to category B. As a rank beginner, I was innocent of such notions, and played whatever, without regard for symmetry. Once I learned about modern, asymmetrical, dynamic play, I spent 15 years running away from symmetry. In the process, I somehow managed to ignore that my black record in the Exchange French was 15-0! (At least I managed to avoid the lashing out part.) Nowadays my absolute favorite black opening is the Exchange Slav. I always win, unless my opponent is stronger than me, when I "only" draw. I actually think the Petroff would be an ideal opening for me, and I should take it up. I've been telling myself that for over 20 years, by now it's just an idle revery.

When I was teaching chess, my philosophy for my students, all of whom were amateurs, was any opening is good. In no particular order:
  • Be objective. Know when a loss was your fault vs the opening's fault. Know when a win was because your opponent was a fish vs you played a great opening.
  • Don't play for traps. (This is a tough sell.) Traps are the opposite of objectivity.
  • Analyze your games afterwards. Every game is an opportunity to learn more about your opening, not to mention about yourself as a player.
  • Know your opening well. Know the book, know what theory considers critical, the antidote, etc.

The biggest mistake I see amongst amateurs is an incorrect self-definition. Something like 90%, at a guess, see themselves as "aggressive" and "tactical" players. Whereas what I see is that they like aggression and they like tactics, regardless of whether it's appropriate for them. It's so limiting. The reason you are an amateur is because there's something about chess you don't know yet. Go learn that thing, and you will be a better player. Learn something about yourself, and you will be the best player you can be.

Edited:
Changed one instance of is to was.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #19 - 04/18/20 at 23:41:20
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ehpotsirhc wrote on 04/18/20 at 01:45:47:
TopNotch wrote on 04/17/20 at 22:01:26:
No matter how good this book may or may not be, I do not see the Petroff ever becoming popular at amateur level, as there is very little upside for Black. Furthermore the opening is just not sexy enough below GM and IM level, not to mention Black is under tremendous pressure in a few key lines, although admittedly he can hold the balance with precise play but the positions are definitely no fun for him. Below Master level Black players need sound but active defences to thrive.

Bullet Proof rep won't help much against an Armor Piercing attack. Wink


Interesting perspective. What are examples of black openings you think are better suited for amateurs?


Playing 1...e5 is great, but meet 2.Nf3 with 2.Nc6 after which there are plenty of rich fighting options to choose from. I consider the Petroff as little more than an attempt by elite players to force a draw, yes black will win sometimes but that's mostly when white is very ambitious and willing to take some risks. Below master level I think that the Pet allows White too many ways to kill the game, although many amateurs freak out when confronted with the Pet and play silly things like the Cochrane Gambit and Urusov Gambit or just about anything to avoid having to play a symmetrical pawn structure.

To be totally honest, despite my earlier protestations I too have the Pet in my Rep, as it has some useful applications, and although it doesn't work quite that well as a stand alone weapon, as a complimentary one it can work wonders.

Postscript: In my ramblings I forgot to give a more incisive answer to your question. Suitable Black openings at amateur level are generally the ones that avoid excessive symmetry, as asymmetrical openings give less experienced opponents more opportunity to go seriously wrong. That's it, stay safe stay well.
  

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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #18 - 04/18/20 at 03:19:55
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MW wrote on 04/18/20 at 01:46:39:
Excellent correspondence weapon.....theory is; not too complex and is also fairly stable unlike some variations of the Sicilian or French etc.......

Also happy to play it OTB and to be honest have often very much enjoyed playing the positions I've reached.

Another thing going for it is that players of the white pieces often treat it with contempt and find themselves in some pretty terrible positions ....lets face it how much time does the average amateur 1 e4 player send studying positions against an opening like the Petroff?


I agree with that and that, indeed I don't think I've ever faced the Petroff in tournament Praxis. Though I always had a simple line prepared just in case someone surprised me with it: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. d4 Nxe4 4. Bd3 d5 5.Nxe5  Nd7 6. 0-0!? not theoretically threatening, but it does have a drop of poison, and if it's reliable enough for Tiviakov it's reliable enough for me. That said, if I knew the Pet was coming I probably wouldn't play that way.   
  

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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #17 - 04/18/20 at 03:09:16
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 04/18/20 at 01:53:55:
I agree most amateurs who play in club and swiss events will want a different defense. But not all. If they are young and ambitious, planning to be a GM someday, then the Petroff would be ideal paired with a sharper option, like the Sicilian for Makarichev, or the Winawer for Yusupov. I can see a huge demand for this title in India and China. Whether they will actually sell many copies in those countries is doubtful, unfortunately.

Edited:
Above I was replying to TopNotch, not to MW.


I agree with that.
  

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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #16 - 04/18/20 at 01:53:55
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I agree most amateurs who play in club and swiss events will want a different defense. But not all. If they are young and ambitious, planning to be a GM someday, then the Petroff would be ideal paired with a sharper option, like the Sicilian for Makarichev, or the Winawer for Yusupov. I can see a huge demand for this title in India and China. Whether they will actually sell many copies in those countries is doubtful, unfortunately.

Edited:
Above I was replying to TopNotch, not to MW.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #15 - 04/18/20 at 01:46:39
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Excellent correspondence weapon.....theory is; not too complex and is also fairly stable unlike some variations of the Sicilian or French etc.......

Also happy to play it OTB and to be honest have often very much enjoyed playing the positions I've reached.

Another thing going for it is that players of the white pieces often treat it with contempt and find themselves in some pretty terrible positions ....lets face it how much time does the average amateur 1 e4 player send studying positions against an opening like the Petroff?
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #14 - 04/18/20 at 01:45:47
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TopNotch wrote on 04/17/20 at 22:01:26:
No matter how good this book may or may not be, I do not see the Petroff ever becoming popular at amateur level, as there is very little upside for Black. Furthermore the opening is just not sexy enough below GM and IM level, not to mention Black is under tremendous pressure in a few key lines, although admittedly he can hold the balance with precise play but the positions are definitely no fun for him. Below Master level Black players need sound but active defences to thrive.

Bullet Proof rep won't help much against an Armor Piercing attack. Wink


Interesting perspective. What are examples of black openings you think are better suited for amateurs?
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #13 - 04/17/20 at 22:01:26
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No matter how good this book may or may not be, I do not see the Petroff ever becoming popular at amateur level, as there is very little upside for Black. Furthermore the opening is just not sexy enough below GM and IM level, not to mention Black is under tremendous pressure in a few key lines, although admittedly he can hold the balance with precise play but the positions are definitely no fun for him. Below Master level Black players need sound but active defences to thrive.

Bullet Proof rep won't help much against an Armor Piercing attack. Wink
  

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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #12 - 04/17/20 at 12:00:33
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Kingside castling in the modern mainline always looked pretty scary to me but maybe the book can convince me to try it.

Bb4 instead of the Four Knights also looks interesting.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #11 - 04/16/20 at 23:39:02
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tracke wrote on 04/16/20 at 18:17:08:


Looks nice, indeed. Will definitely get it when it comes out
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #10 - 04/16/20 at 18:17:08
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #9 - 01/13/20 at 02:35:34
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MW wrote on 01/13/20 at 00:57:10:
The two Lakdawala books are also very good reads and I was impressed with the fact that there was little cross over of material between the two books. But in the Opening repertoire edition if you look at the "new main line" as he calls it, he offers a number of different lines for black resulting in the level of depth in each option being a little on the thin side for a repertoire.


I suppose so. I analysed the Petroff and made my own personal files for analysis. I spent probably one whole month on this opening, analysing it everyday, so yes if I did this maybe he could have added more analysis in his book.

Also, I analysed the line with 8...b6 in the New Main Line myself, and it seems like Black has to know what he is doing to avoid getting attacked. The queenside fianchetto means that Black lags in development, especially since he already has castled kingside.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #8 - 01/13/20 at 00:57:10
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RoleyPoley wrote on 01/12/20 at 18:45:48:
You think the Fight 1.e4 like Caruana repertoire isn't good/modern enough?

Leon_Trotsky wrote on 01/12/20 at 23:01:42:
But there were books by Cohen and Lakdawala on the Petroff as well.


I have Fight Like Caruana and it is very good, excellent in fact, but I was referring to printed material. I haven't finished this course and unlike a book I find it hard to flick through and look at the more challenging lines for black. Chessable products are still a work in progress for me, great if you want to simply learn variations but for use as a reference source I'm not proficient enough with the product yet.

The two Lakdawala books are also very good reads and I was impressed with the fact that there was little cross over of material between the two books. But in the Opening repertoire edition if you look at the "new main line" as he calls it, he offers a number of different lines for black resulting in the level of depth in each option being a little on the thin side for a repertoire.

As for Or Cohen's book I have nothing but absolute admiration for the guy. He was pretty much unknown at the time and he put together an excellent book, one or two lines might have been on the edge but IMO that took nothing away from the finished product. Trouble is it is seven years old now and theory on the Petroff has moved on, hence I welcome Quality's new volume on this opening.   

  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #7 - 01/12/20 at 23:01:42
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But there were books by Cohen and Lakdawala on the Petroff as well.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #6 - 01/12/20 at 18:45:48
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doefmat wrote on 01/12/20 at 17:35:27:
MW wrote on 01/12/20 at 17:31:45:
doefmat wrote on 01/12/20 at 10:25:23:
What do you mean with long overdue?


IMO the last authoritative book on the Petroff was written by Sakaev in 2011..hence the time has come for a up-date and I'm hoping this new book will provide that.


You think the Fight 1.e4 like Caruana repertoire isn't good/modern enough?

Perhaps he is referring to print sources?
  

"As Mikhail Tal would say ' Let's have a bit of hooliganism! '"

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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #5 - 01/12/20 at 17:35:27
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MW wrote on 01/12/20 at 17:31:45:
doefmat wrote on 01/12/20 at 10:25:23:
What do you mean with long overdue?


IMO the last authoritative book on the Petroff was written by Sakaev in 2011..hence the time has come for a up-date and I'm hoping this new book will provide that.


You think the Fight 1.e4 like Caruana repertoire isn't good/modern enough?
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #4 - 01/12/20 at 17:31:45
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doefmat wrote on 01/12/20 at 10:25:23:
What do you mean with long overdue?


IMO the last authoritative book on the Petroff was written by Sakaev in 2011..hence the time has come for a up-date and I'm hoping this new book will provide that.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #3 - 01/12/20 at 10:25:23
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MW wrote on 01/11/20 at 21:43:38:
According to the publisher Swapnil has played the Petroff a few times although it is not the backbone of his repertoire. They do go onto say that they still think his analysis of it is first rate.

They have given no hint as to whether he will recommend 6...Bd6  (as per the Caruana repertoire) or the more usual 6...Nc6 against the old main line.

Regardless it is a long overdue book (IMHO) and one I'm looking forward too.


What do you mean with long overdue?
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #2 - 01/11/20 at 21:43:38
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According to the publisher Swapnil has played the Petroff a few times although it is not the backbone of his repertoire. They do go onto say that they still think his analysis of it is first rate.

They have given no hint as to whether he will recommend 6...Bd6  (as per the Caruana repertoire) or the more usual 6...Nc6 against the old main line.

Regardless it is a long overdue book (IMHO) and one I'm looking forward too.
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #1 - 01/10/20 at 09:33:38
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Wow nice. People in older topics say there aren't many Petroff books because ' nothing happens' theory wise in this opening. Now we had quite a few releases!

I wonder how it will be different from the ' Fight 1.e4 like Caruana' repertoire.

Seems like he doesn't play the Petroff himself, a bit of a downer. I know this is true for a lot of books. But with the Kotronias book on the Tarrasch for example you can really notice that the writer is an expert in the opening.
  
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Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
01/09/20 at 19:43:03
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Quality Chess has just announced several forthcoming books, among them is

Playing the Petroff - A Bulletproof Repertoire by GM Swapnil Dhopade
expected release summer 2020
„This Book also provides plenty of guidance on how to deal with 1.e4 e5 games
where White avoids 2.Nf3, with particular focus on Anti-Petroff lines such as 2.Bc4“
http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/products/1/371/playing_the_petroff_by_swapnil_dhop...

Also very interesting for Petroff players is another announcement by Quality
concerning a white repertoire in the Italian Game, with the first of two volumes
dealing with the 5.Nc3 in the Petroff AND with 2.Lc4. But that may be another thread.
http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/products/1/359/the_italian_renaissance_-_i_move_or...

tracke  Smiley
  
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