LordChaos21 wrote on 01/10/20 at 16:35:50:


Laziness mostly, players don't like carrying around extra luggage in their head unless they absolutely have to. White also needs to be wary that in trying to move-order Najdorf players that he doesn't wind up tricking himself, especially if he is not a well rounded Open Sicilian guy. For example, I once tried to be clever against a Najy guy and went for 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 so far so good right, opening battle won. There followed 3.Nge2 Nf6! and suddenly I was stuck, it occured to me that I didn't really want to go into the Sveshnikov either, so no worries 4.g3 but then came 4...d5 5.exd5 Nd4!? 6.Bg2 Bg4 and somehow we have transposed into what looks like some line from the Scotch Three Knights  or Cozio defence to the Ruy, long story short Black equalised comfortably and put an end to my 3.Nge2 flirtation. 

Conclusion, if you want to fight for an edge and go 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nge2 you need to be prepared to enter the Sveshnikov after 3...Nf6, which these days is considered even more reliable than the Najdorf. Curious to know what Tiviakov thinks about all this. 

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 01/13/20 at 05:06:46:

Practical results suggest otherwise.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 01/13/20 at 05:06:46:

Might be so, but Black in both cases can answer 6...b5,. which of course is a very common plan. In either case Black will only transpose to 2...d6 lines when it suits him/her. So my conclusion remains correct: 2...Nc6 3.g3 does not necessarily transpose to 2...d6 3.g3 but gives Black an important extra option that does very well in practice.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 01/13/20 at 05:06:46:

4...Rb8 5.Be3 b5 still looks interesting; again, Black doesn't need to play ...d6.
Were I White I would take your argument two steps further and begin with 2.d3. That avoids all the early b7-b5-b4 stuff. Of course Black can force White to play the KID (beginning with d5 3.Nd2), but that's more interesting than the Closed Sicilian after 2.Nc3 e6 3.g3 d5 anyway.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 01/13/20 at 05:06:46:

I don't need to have any; I only claimed that as far as the Closed Sicilian is concerned 2...Nc6 is more accurate. I onlly need to point out that Black has more options. Black might consider 8...Qa5 iso 8...d6 or 7...Nd4 iso 7...b4. These suggestions are not necessarily better than the transposition. Again, Black will only transpose to 2...d6 3.g3 lines when it suits hm/her and that's always nice, especially because Black can figure this out in his/her study.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 01/13/20 at 05:06:46:

I wouldn't call giving up 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 d6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.d3 Nc6 6.f4 minmal. My database contains 2000+ games that support my view. That includes six games of a famous 1968 Candidates match.

By the way, in a recent match between two of Tiviakov's countrymen, GM Friso Nijboer sought to surprise FM Eelke de Boer (a young Najdorf player) with "something strange":  2. Nc3 d6 3. Nge2 Nf6 4. h3.   

(post-mortem with the players at about 3 hr 57 min)
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/527881424

Incidentally 2...Nc6 3. Nge2 e5 came up here back in '17.
https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1487015444/8#8

3 Nge2 e5 ... some 2500+ players have played it, you could definitely try it -- it seems like some more research would be needed to say if it is as reliable as 3 Nf3 e5 ... if that is important to you.

The risk is that you might wind up some tempos down ... for instance, the game below 6 of White's first 12 moves are knight moves going Ng1 to f3-d2-f1-e3-d5 and Nb1 to c3

In the Nge2 system maybe he's spending 4 instead of 6 ... Nb1 to c3-d5 and Ng1 to e2-c3

On the other hand, he brings a knight to d5 sooner if something like 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 Nge2 e5 4 Nd5 happens, so maybe that gives Black some options -- perhaps Black can skip Nf6-d7-b6 and just trade on d5 right away (winning some moves back), or maybe White even "loses" the extra tempi to play Nd5-e3 to keep the tension and avoid trades.   

[Event "Wch Rapid"]
[White "Zubov, Alexander"]
[Black "Le, Quang Liem"]
[Site "Moscow"]
[Round "6"]
[Annotator ""]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Date "2019.12.27"]
[WhiteElo "2601"]
[BlackElo "2713"]
[PlyCount "71"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 e5 4. Bc4 Be7 5. d3 d6 6. Nd2 Nf6 7. Nf1 Bg4 8. f3 Be6 9. Ne3 0-0 10. a3 Nd7 11. 0-0 Bg5 12. Ned5 Nb6 13. Bxg5 Qxg5 14. Nxb6 axb6 15. Qc1 Qd8 16. f4 Bxc4 17. dxc4 f5 18. fxe5 fxe4 19. Qe3 Re8 20. Qxe4 Rxe5 21. Qg4 Nd4 22. Rf2 h5 23. Qg6 Qe8 24. Qxd6 Nxc2 25. Rc1 Ne3 26. Qxb6 Qd7 27. Nd5 Nxc4 28. Qb3 Rxd5 29. Qxc4 b5 30. Qf4 Re8 31. h3 c4 32. Rcf1 Kh7 33. a4 Rd4 34. Qf3 Re5 35. axb5 Rxb5 36. Kh1 1/2-1/2

I am new to this website so still don't know how to use a quote so sorry if this is a bit convoluted. 

@RoleyPoley I didn't know Bb5 was such a big deal after Nc3 Nc6. But a quick glance seems to suggest Black is fine after Nd4?

@ordinarychessplayer i think Black can if he wants delay d6 and instead play with a quick Rb8 and b5 which I like for Black. I don't know if it's better or not but it certainly scores pretty well. Generally I just think it is a bit more accurate. I consider Nc3 d6 d4 a much bigger problem.

@ErictheRed But if you are fine with playing the position after Nf3 (Nge2) e5, you can simply avoid this transpositions right?

As for 3 Nf3 e5, I am pretty fine with those positions. Carlsen likes to go for those and Black's results are also good.

Hi.

Glenn Snow wrote on 01/10/20 at 22:05:50:
Glenn Snow wrote on 01/10/20 at 22:05:50:

Both of you can be correct in today's world I think

Edit: I never found anything serious and thought black could equalise, although not by a big margin.
I will get the book now that I realise this anti is in there. Always interesting to try and bypass stuff.

Have a nice day!

Kaufman's new repertoire book claims "a normal White edge", after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 e5.  White's advantage looked fairly small to me.  I haven't put his variations on a computer yet.