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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Why don't Najdorf players play 2.Nc3 Nc6? (Read 10222 times)
BeeCaves
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Re: Why don't Najdorf players play 2.Nc3 Nc6?
Reply #9 - 01/11/20 at 17:20:32
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3 Nge2 e5 ... some 2500+ players have played it, you could definitely try it -- it seems like some more research would be needed to say if it is as reliable as 3 Nf3 e5 ... if that is important to you.

The risk is that you might wind up some tempos down ... for instance, the game below 6 of White's first 12 moves are knight moves going Ng1 to f3-d2-f1-e3-d5 and Nb1 to c3

In the Nge2 system maybe he's spending 4 instead of 6 ... Nb1 to c3-d5 and Ng1 to e2-c3

On the other hand, he brings a knight to d5 sooner if something like 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 Nge2 e5 4 Nd5 happens, so maybe that gives Black some options -- perhaps Black can skip Nf6-d7-b6 and just trade on d5 right away (winning some moves back), or maybe White even "loses" the extra tempi to play Nd5-e3 to keep the tension and avoid trades. 

[Event "Wch Rapid"]
[White "Zubov, Alexander"]
[Black "Le, Quang Liem"]
[Site "Moscow"]
[Round "6"]
[Annotator ""]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Date "2019.12.27"]
[WhiteElo "2601"]
[BlackElo "2713"]
[PlyCount "71"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 e5 4. Bc4 Be7 5. d3 d6 6. Nd2 Nf6 7. Nf1 Bg4 8. f3 Be6 9. Ne3 0-0 10. a3 Nd7 11. 0-0 Bg5 12. Ned5 Nb6 13. Bxg5 Qxg5 14. Nxb6 axb6 15. Qc1 Qd8 16. f4 Bxc4 17. dxc4 f5 18. fxe5 fxe4 19. Qe3 Re8 20. Qxe4 Rxe5 21. Qg4 Nd4 22. Rf2 h5 23. Qg6 Qe8 24. Qxd6 Nxc2 25. Rc1 Ne3 26. Qxb6 Qd7 27. Nd5 Nxc4 28. Qb3 Rxd5 29. Qxc4 b5 30. Qf4 Re8 31. h3 c4 32. Rcf1 Kh7 33. a4 Rd4 34. Qf3 Re5 35. axb5 Rxb5 36. Kh1 1/2-1/2
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Why don't Najdorf players play 2.Nc3 Nc6?
Reply #8 - 01/11/20 at 17:00:13
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Yes, if a Najdorf player is happy with 3.Nf3 e5 as Black, then they can happily play 1.e5 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 without issue.
  
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LordChaos21
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Re: Why don't Najdorf players play 2.Nc3 Nc6?
Reply #7 - 01/11/20 at 14:54:14
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I am new to this website so still don't know how to use a quote so sorry if this is a bit convoluted.

@RoleyPoley I didn't know Bb5 was such a big deal after Nc3 Nc6. But a quick glance seems to suggest Black is fine after Nd4?

@ordinarychessplayer i think Black can if he wants delay d6 and instead play with a quick Rb8 and b5 which I like for Black. I don't know if it's better or not but it certainly scores pretty well. Generally I just think it is a bit more accurate. I consider Nc3 d6 d4 a much bigger problem.

@ErictheRed But if you are fine with playing the position after Nf3 (Nge2) e5, you can simply avoid this transpositions right?

As for 3 Nf3 e5, I am pretty fine with those positions. Carlsen likes to go for those and Black's results are also good.
  
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MNb
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Re: Why don't Najdorf players play 2.Nc3 Nc6?
Reply #6 - 01/11/20 at 09:54:29
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 01/10/20 at 20:39:17:
I'm curious in what line of the Closed Sicilian you think white can do better versus 2...d6 as compared to 2...Nc6. I've played 3.g3 a lot as white, and as far as I know in the best lines for black, black plays both moves and they transpose into each other.

Fourty yeras ago Dutch IM Pauls Boersma gave 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.d3 Rb8 6.Be3 b5. Indeed Black (!) scores almost 60%.
There is also 5.d3 e6 idea 6.f4 Nge7 7.Nf3 d5 (Black does even better), forcing White to play 6.Be3 of 7.Be3. After 2...d6 etc. White might postpone this. so 2...Nc6 definitely is more accurate, given the Closed Sicilian.
  

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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Why don't Najdorf players play 2.Nc3 Nc6?
Reply #5 - 01/11/20 at 05:49:37
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Hi.

Glenn Snow wrote on 01/10/20 at 22:05:50:
Kaufman's new repertoire book claims "a normal White edge", after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 e5.
Glenn Snow wrote on 01/10/20 at 22:05:50:
White's advantage looked fairly small to me.

Both of you can be correct in today's world I think Smiley

Edit: I never found anything serious and thought black could equalise, although not by a big margin.
I will get the book now that I realise this anti is in there. Always interesting to try and bypass stuff.

Have a nice day!
  
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Re: Why don't Najdorf players play 2.Nc3 Nc6?
Reply #4 - 01/11/20 at 02:50:27
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To answer the original question, Najdorf players don't usually play 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 because after 3.Nf3 (or 3.Nge2) there is no way to get a Najdorf if White continues 4.d4.  That's a too-simple way for White to be able to avoid Black's main defense, so Najdorf players usually prefer 2...d6.  The only way around it would be to play  1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 e5, as mentioned before.  Any other third move (3...d6, 3...e6, 3...g6, etc) would lead to a different Open Sicilian after 4.d4.
  
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Re: Why don't Najdorf players play 2.Nc3 Nc6?
Reply #3 - 01/10/20 at 22:05:50
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Kaufman's new repertoire book claims "a normal White edge", after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 e5.  White's advantage looked fairly small to me.  I haven't put his variations on a computer yet.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Why don't Najdorf players play 2.Nc3 Nc6?
Reply #2 - 01/10/20 at 20:39:17
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LordChaos21 wrote on 01/10/20 at 16:35:50:
I was just wondering, why don't Najdorf players meet 2.Nc3 with Nc6? As far as I know, 2...Nc6 is supposed to be the best way to meet the Grand Prix Attack (3.f4), and it is also the most flexible against White playing with g3 for the Closed Sicilian. If White plays 3.Nf3 trying to steer the game into an unfavourable Open Sicilian, Black can play e5! which seems to be doing quite well. The biggest problem seemed to be 3.Nge2!?, but even this you can meet if you wish with e5, or play g6 which also seems to do well.

If you instead play 2...d6 you have to deal with much tougher versions of the GPA and the Closed, and also the trendy and strong (imo) 3.d4 cd 4.Qd4 Nc6 5.Qd2. So why not just play 2...Nc6?

I'm curious in what line of the Closed Sicilian you think white can do better versus 2...d6 as compared to 2...Nc6. I've played 3.g3 a lot as white, and as far as I know in the best lines for black, black plays both moves and they transpose into each other.
  
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Re: Why don't Najdorf players play 2.Nc3 Nc6?
Reply #1 - 01/10/20 at 17:15:48
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LordChaos21 wrote on 01/10/20 at 16:35:50:
I was just wondering, why don't Najdorf players meet 2.Nc3 with Nc6? As far as I know, 2...Nc6 is supposed to be the best way to meet the Grand Prix Attack (3.f4), and it is also the most flexible against White playing with g3 for the Closed Sicilian. If White plays 3.Nf3 trying to steer the game into an unfavourable Open Sicilian, Black can play e5! which seems to be doing quite well. The biggest problem seemed to be 3.Nge2!?, but even this you can meet if you wish with e5, or play g6 which also seems to do well.

If you instead play 2...d6 you have to deal with much tougher versions of the GPA and the Closed, and also the trendy and strong (imo) 3.d4 cd 4.Qd4 Nc6 5.Qd2. So why not just play 2...Nc6?


I would think 3 Bb5 is a much bigger concern against 2. Nc6 than the GP is against 2.d6 both because it is more frequently encountered, and secondly better by reputation?
  

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LordChaos21
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Why don't Najdorf players play 2.Nc3 Nc6?
01/10/20 at 16:35:50
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I was just wondering, why don't Najdorf players meet 2.Nc3 with Nc6? As far as I know, 2...Nc6 is supposed to be the best way to meet the Grand Prix Attack (3.f4), and it is also the most flexible against White playing with g3 for the Closed Sicilian. If White plays 3.Nf3 trying to steer the game into an unfavourable Open Sicilian, Black can play e5! which seems to be doing quite well. The biggest problem seemed to be 3.Nge2!?, but even this you can meet if you wish with e5, or play g6 which also seems to do well.

If you instead play 2...d6 you have to deal with much tougher versions of the GPA and the Closed, and also the trendy and strong (imo) 3.d4 cd 4.Qd4 Nc6 5.Qd2. So why not just play 2...Nc6?
  
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