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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 5..Nf6 Tarrasch (Read 2013 times)
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Re: 5..Nf6 Tarrasch
Reply #10 - 06/03/21 at 18:27:17
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Today, chessable released a course by FM Joshua Donkjas on dealing with flank openings. The title is a bit of a misnomer because it also offers a complete repertoire against 1.d4. In the "appendix" section, he gives 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Nf3 Nf6 and after 6.Bg5 Be6 7.e3 c4 8.Be2 Bb4 9.0-0, rather than 9...0-0 discussed above, he recommends 9...Nbd7.
  
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Re: 5..Nf6 Tarrasch
Reply #9 - 01/20/21 at 16:45:11
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Yes 12...Bc8 is interesting too.

[Event "blitz"]
[Site "chesspub 1580368743"]
[Date "2020.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "Carlsen:Dubov"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "D32"]

  1.d4 d5
  2.c4 e6
  3.Nc3 c5
  4.cxd5 exd5
  5.Nf3 Nf6
  6.Bg5 Be6
  7.e3

(7.Bxf6 Bxf6 8.e4 {ECO-1976 .. unclear, Bibikov - Sbandutto, corr 1947})
(7.e4 {ECO-1987 .. +=, D.Gurevich - I.Ivanov, New York 1983})
  7...c4
(7...Nbd7 8.Bb5 cxd4 9.Nxd4 Be7 10.f4 $14 {Lasker - Schlechter, Berlin 1918})
(7...Nc6 {= ECO-1976} 8.Be2 h6 9.Bh4 Be7 10.dxc5 Bxc5 11.O-O O-O 12.Rc1 += {ECO-1987})
  8.Be2 Bb4
  9.O-O O-O
  10.Ne5 Qa5

(10...Nbd7 11.Bf3 Qa5 12.Nxd7 Nxd7 13.Qc2 h6 14.Bf4 Nf6 {IsaVulpes. This looks like a reasonable Manhattan Variation for black. See D38: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 Bb4 5.Bg5 Nbd7 6.cxd5 exd5 7.e3 c5} )
  11.f4 Bxc3
  12.f5 Bd7

(12...Bc8 13.bxc3 {(B)}
(13.Bxf6 {(A)} 13...gxf6 14.Ng4 Bxb2 15.Rb1 Ba3 16.Nxf6+
  (16.Bxc4 = {"perpetual" Tauromachie}16...Kg7 17.Rb5 Qa6 18.Bd3 Qd6 {the engine is happy with black's extra pawn, still needs analysis})
16...Kg7 17.Nxh7 Rh8 18.f6+ Kg8 19.Ng5 Nc6 20.Bh5 Nd8 21.Rxb7 Qc3
  (21...Bxb7 22.Qg4 +- {Tauromachie})
22.Qf3 Bxb7 = {Tauromachie})
13...Ne4 14.Be7 Qxc3
  (14...Re8 {"suffering" Tauromachie})
15.Bxf8 Qxe3+ 16.Kh1 Kxf8 17.Bxc4 Nf2+ 18.Rxf2 Qxf2 19.Qh5 Qxf5 20.Qh4 Nc6 21.Rf1
  (21.Nxc6 Qf6 22.Qxh7 bxc6 {"escaping" Tauromachie} 23.Qh8+ Ke7 24.Re1+ Kd6 25.Qf8+ Kc7 26.Rf1 Qxd4 27.Rxf7+ Bd7 28.Qxa8 dxc4 29.Rf1 = {white cannot win})
21...dxc4 22.Rxf5 Bxf5 23.Qh5 Nxe5 24.Qxf5 Nc6 25.Qc5+ Ne7 26.Qxc4 Rc8 27.Qf1 Nf5 {"fortress" Tauromachie} 28.d5 Ne3 29.Qb1 Nxd5 30.h4 b6 31.Qxh7 Nf6 32.Qh8+ Ng8 33.Qh5 Nf6 34.Qd1 Kg8 35.g4 {still chances for the queen})
  13.bxc3 Ne4
  14.Be7 Re8

(14...Qxc3 15.Bxf8 Qxe3+ 16.Kh1 Kxf8 17.Bxc4 dxc4
  (17...Nf2+ 18.Rxf2 Qxf2 19.Bxd5 Bc6 20.Qb3 +-)
18.Qh5 Be8 19.Qxh7 Nf2+ 20.Rxf2 Qxf2 21.Ng4 +-
  (21.d5!? {hard to understand}))
  15.Bb4 Qc7
  16.Bf3 Nf6
  17.g4 h6

(17...a5 18.Ba3 h6 19.Nxf7 Kxf7 20.g5 hxg5 21.Bxd5+ Nxd5 22.Qh5+ Kg8 23.f6 Nxf6 24.Rxf6 Ba4 25.Bd6
  (25.Raf1 {played without ...a7-a5} 25...gxf6 26.Rxf6 Ra6 -+)
25...Qd7 26.Raf1 Nc6 27.Rf7 Qe6)
(17...Na6!?)
18.Nxf7 Kxf7 19.g5 hxg5 20.Bxd5+ Nxd5 21.Qh5+ Kg8 22.f6 Nxf6 23.Rxf6 Bc6 24.Raf1 gxf6 25.Rxf6 Qg7 26.Rg6 Nd7 27.Qh6 Qxg6 28.Qxg6+ Kh8 29.e4 +- {(sic) IsaVulpes}
(29.d5 +- {minor correction})
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D32.pgn ( 2 KB | 25 Downloads )
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Re: 5..Nf6 Tarrasch
Reply #8 - 01/20/21 at 07:22:01
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I was referring to the line 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Nf3 Nf6 6.Bg5 Be6 7.e3 c4 8.Be2 Bb4 9.0-0 0-0 10.Ne5 Qa5 11.f4 Bxc3 12.f5 and now 12..Bc8 instead of 12..Bd7
  
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Re: 5..Nf6 Tarrasch
Reply #7 - 01/19/21 at 20:06:29
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@Tauromachie - Please post the moves leading up to 12...Bc8. IsaVulpes gave more than one "8...Bb4 line".
  
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Re: 5..Nf6 Tarrasch
Reply #6 - 01/19/21 at 16:53:19
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I have a question.

Did you check 12..Bc8 in the 8..Bb4 line? I did not analyze it deeply, but according to my limited analyses it seems to kinda hold if there is no hidden blow I (or tbf the engine that is) missed. This, however, is quite a big "if".

A) 13.Bxf6 gxf6 14.Ng4 and now both 14..Bxb2 or 14..Bb4 seem playable, fe: 14..Bxb2 15.Rb1 Ba3 16.Nxf6+ (16.Bxc4 forces a perpetual) 16..Kg7 17.Nxh7 Rh8 18.f6+ Kg8 19.Ng5 Nc6 20.Bh5 Nd8 and now the tactical shot 21.Rxb7! Qc3 (21..Bxb7 22.Qg4 winning) 22.Qf3 Bxb7 just seems to lead to a perpetual check with best play.

B) Critical looks 13.bxc3 Ne4 14.Be7 and now instead of suffering after 14..Re8 I would like to sac the exchange with 14..Qxc3 15.Bxf8 Qxe3+ 16.Kh1 Kxf8 and here comes the next punch with 17.Bxc4! making room for Qh5. But Following 17..Nf2+ 18.Rxf2 Qxf2 19.Qh5 Qxf5 20.Qh4 Nc6 21.Rf1, trying to crush trough on f7 (21.Nxc6 Qf6! 22.Qxh7 bxc6 and the king escapes via e7-d6) forces us to give the queen, but I believe we have a fortress here: 21..dxc4! 22.Rxf5 Bxf5 23.Qh5 Nxe5 24.Qxf5 Nc6 25.Qc5+ Ne7 26.Qxc4 Rc8 27.Qf1 Nf5 black will win the d5 pawn for either the h7 or b7 pawn but I dont see how white will break trough here.

Maybe none of this is relevant after all but it is interesting regardless.

I cant quite bring myself to trust 6..Be6 enough to really want to play it though, it just looks too ugly and shaky.
There is also just 6.g3 instead of 6.Bg5 to transpose to either the Dubov line or the classical mainlines. Upside being that you circumvented the delayed Nc3 approaches and the endgame variation with 6.dxc5. Hard to tell if it is worth it though, would not think so.
  
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Re: 5..Nf6 Tarrasch
Reply #5 - 01/30/20 at 15:55:59
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 01/30/20 at 14:33:39:
Maybe there's some minus-one-pawn position black can aim for that a 2700 GM can confidently expect to hold.
Well if smth like that is the best you can hope for, then 5..Nc6 is presumably a better solution - at least in practical terms, as 6.dxc5 is still quite rare, while 6.Bg5 after 5..Nf6 is extremely common
  
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Re: 5..Nf6 Tarrasch
Reply #4 - 01/30/20 at 14:33:39
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IsaVulpes wrote on 01/30/20 at 07:19:03:
So ya, any ideas? Or am I misevaluating the 2nd line, and just need some pointers of how to handle these ..c4 structures? Or does none of this actually work, Carlsen just trusted that people would misplay in Blitz, and one should stick to 5..Nc6? Advice welcome!  Smiley

In blitz only, Carlsen has played the North Sea Defence much more often than this 5...Nf6, so can we use that fact to discern his thoughts on their relative merits? No, not really. Carlsen using an opening in blitz is not evidence of anything.

I always thought 5...Nf6 is simply a mistake, but if it's no worse than 5...Nc6 6.dxc5 then I may have to revise my opinion, and think that 3...c5 is the mistake. Certainly since Gareyev thumped me with 6.dxc5 I haven't been willing to play the Tarrasch from a pure move order.

To my eyes the most natural line is 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Nf3 Nf6 6.Bg5 Be6 7.e3 c4 8.Be2 Be7 9.O-O O-O (or 9...Nc6 first). I don't know what to do about the suggested 10.b3. With the white bishop on g2, b2-b3 is sometimes met by ...c4xb3 and ...Nc6-a5-c4. But with the bishop on e2 this is futile.

Maybe there's some minus-one-pawn position black can aim for that a 2700 GM can confidently expect to hold.
  
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Re: 5..Nf6 Tarrasch
Reply #3 - 01/30/20 at 09:30:56
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doefmat wrote on 01/30/20 at 09:25:59:
RoleyPoley wrote on 01/30/20 at 09:16:15:
I recently saw a thread where this was discussed and a link to a discussion on reddit. I cant seem to find it at the moment but will look again later.


https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/ehvfm0/dubov_and_carlsens_modern_take_on...

https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1577803908

Yes, that's my thread & I read through the reddit one as well, but it doesn't feature a whole lot of discussion on the 5..Nf6 topic (and if there were, I'd say it's in the wrong place).

The only real post on the topic is
Syzygy wrote on 01/07/20 at 22:01:00:
I don't see how 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Nf3 Nf6 6.Bg5 Be6 7.e3 c4 solves Black's problems. Let's say White plays the apparently timid 8. Be2. Then possible thematic continuations could be:

8...Be7 9. O-O O-O 10. Bxf6 Bxf6 11.b3
8...Bb4 9. O-O O-O 10. Ne5
8...Nbd7 9. O-O h6 10. Bxf6 Nxf6 11.Ne5
8...Nc6 9.O-O Be7 10. b3

In all cases, White seems to have a pleasant edge.

Which, yeah.  Undecided I have so far failed to disprove
  
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Re: 5..Nf6 Tarrasch
Reply #2 - 01/30/20 at 09:25:59
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RoleyPoley wrote on 01/30/20 at 09:16:15:
I recently saw a thread where this was discussed and a link to a discussion on reddit. I cant seem to find it at the moment but will look again later.


https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/ehvfm0/dubov_and_carlsens_modern_take_on...

https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1577803908
  
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Re: 5..Nf6 Tarrasch
Reply #1 - 01/30/20 at 09:16:15
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I recently saw a thread where this was discussed and a link to a discussion on reddit. I cant seem to find it at the moment but will look again later.
  

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5..Nf6 Tarrasch
01/30/20 at 07:19:03
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Hi,

Aside from the general "revolution" of going ..cxd4 ..Bc5, Carlsen/Dubov played a different fresh / old-but-perhaps-not-as-bad-as-once-thought line in the World Rapid/Blitz, namely 5..Nf6.
Obviously the aim is to avoid 5..Nc6 6.dxc5, which is a pain both objectively (rather challenging) and practically (White gets a simple bailout into a better ending).

Has anyone dug into this, and figured out whether it's a serious equalizing attempt, or just a one-off-since-its-Rapid/Blitz-anyway weapon?

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1987070 Here's Carlsens game vs Wojtaszek in the World Blitz
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1981098 and a very different line vs Vidit in Kolkata

I clicked around a lot, but never really felt any comfortable in the positions after 6.Bg5 Be6 7.e3 c4 - although it has to be said that I am not used to the ..c4 structures in general (only ever played the Tarrasch with 7.. or 9..cxd4), so perhaps I am just misevaluating?

The most natural move for White would be 8.Be2, but after 8..Bb4 already there I failed to find satisfactory continuations. One sample line went

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 c5 4. cxd5 exd5
5. Nf3 Nf6 6. Bg5 Be6 7. e3 c4 8. Be2 Bb4
9. O-O O-O 10. Ne5 Qa5 11. f4 Bxc3 12. f5 Bd7
13. bxc3 Ne4 14. Be7 Re8 15. Bb4 Qc7 16. Bf3 Nf6
17. g4 h6 18. Nxf7 Kxf7 19. g5 hxg5 20. Bxd5+ Nxd5
21. Qh5+ Kg8 22. f6 Nxf6 23. Rxf6 Bc6 24. Raf1 gxf6
25. Rxf6 Qg7 26. Rg6 Nd7 27. Qh6 Qxg6 28. Qxg6+ Kh8
29. e4

When Black is just busted. There are some alternatives on the way (16..f6 one of them, which I also didn't find anything resembling equality in), but in general the Computer happily steers us here & even thinks Black is better for most of it, before things start falling apart.

Playing in slightly more restrained fashion, eg via

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 c5 4. cxd5 exd5
5. Nf3 Nf6 6. Bg5 Be6 7. e3 c4 8. Be2 Bb4
9. O-O O-O 10. Ne5 Nbd7 11. Bf3 Qa5 12. Nxd7 Nxd7
13. Qc2 h6 14. Bf4 Nf6

is possible, and the computer only gives a slight plus to White, but humanly this just doesn't look very inspiring at all.
I have no idea how I am supposed to generate any kind of play, and it just feels like there will be some e3-e4 coming and I get rolled over on the Kingside, or similar.
The Engine seems to agree in part with that assessment..? The top line given after a quick analysis is 15.a3 Be7 16.Be5 Rad8 17.h3 Nh7 18.Bh5 Nf6 19.Bf3 Nd7 20.Bg3 Nf6, which, uh, doesn't inspire too much confidence that it has a great plan of how to continue the game.

The most "feels like I am doing something" that I managed to get was 13.Qc2 f6 14.Bf4 g5 15.Bg3 f5, but... at the same time it feels like I will very much regret what I'm doing. At least here the position gives off vibes of "practical chances", rather than just "wait for death" Undecided

There are some other critical lines, centered around an early e4 (eg 7.Bxf6 Qxf6 8.e4; or even 7.e4 is feasible), but since I am hitting roadblocks in 7.e3, I didn't even yet get that far..

I have no issue with some +0.6 or w/e where White has problems to solve, but my attempts at finding a line I'm happy with all either entered "lost" territory (upwards of +1, with some just straightup busted), or to my eyes looked like "White can press with little to no risk, forever", which I don't really want to play (unless it's like, +0.01).

So ya, any ideas? Or am I misevaluating the 2nd line, and just need some pointers of how to handle these ..c4 structures? Or does none of this actually work, Carlsen just trusted that people would misplay in Blitz, and one should stick to 5..Nc6? Advice welcome!  Smiley
  
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