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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be3 (Anti Modern) (Read 2167 times)
Confused_by_Theory
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Re: 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be3 (Anti Modern)
Reply #14 - 03/07/20 at 09:25:33
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Hi.

Yer. It is a motif.

With white already having played Be3 however it is an exchange (or worse Wink).

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Re: 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be3 (Anti Modern)
Reply #13 - 03/07/20 at 04:08:06
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 03/07/20 at 00:51:13:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4. Be3 Nd7 5.Bc4 e6 6.Nc3 a6 7.a4 b6 8.d5 e5 9.Nd2

I once did an early d4-d5 and Nf3-d2 in a Hippo. GM A. Ivanov answered with ...Bg7-h6 followed ...Ke8-f8-g7. So 9...Bh6 is worth considering, when white has less play on the queenside here than what I had.
  
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Re: 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be3 (Anti Modern)
Reply #12 - 03/07/20 at 00:51:13
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Hey again.

1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4. Be3 Nd7 5.Bc4 e6 6.Nc3
may just be better. If 6...Ngf6 7.e5 is strong.
Instead I would imagine
6...a6 7.a4! b6
Is critical. If not b6 white goes a5 and captures as soon as black moves the pawn. I think this should be good enough for some advantage strategically. But now
8.d5!?
and I can not really see anything better than
8...e5 9.Nd2!
Now white can not really play very effectively on the queenside in the short term. Long term he should probably still have chances there though.
Black can not play f5 himself and thus faces somewhat similar issues. It is important for him to find play on the kingside but how is not overly clear. White has gotten time for the harmonising Nd2 move and may be able to consider g4 if he wants to try and combat f5 even more. Overall I think black needs to know what he is doing.

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Re: 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be3 (Anti Modern)
Reply #11 - 03/07/20 at 00:07:59
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Hi.

I was hoping Be3 would not be so bad to have played for white. It does not exactly look like it either, although if given a free wish replacing it with say short castles or a4 would probably make sense.

Checking with Stockfish one doesn't exactly get the impression the fish overlord understands the position after
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4. Be3 Nd7 5.Bc4 e6 6.a4!?

I think it may not be so bad after 6...Ngf6!? Fighting for both the central light squares (6...Ne7 is more normal but also more passive). The computer indicates 7.Nc3 0-0 8.0-0 as best although black seems to have a couple of seemingly playable moves after that. Maybe 6.a4 is not most exact but if not early a4 black should have time for a6 and b6 with a more normal hippo.

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Re: 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be3 (Anti Modern)
Reply #10 - 03/03/20 at 01:10:27
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That's a good point. I can't figure out what Black is supposed to play if not 5...e6, so I guess 4...Nd7 might only be viable if you're happy playing a Hippo. I guess compared to the line 4 Bc4 e6, Black is slightly better off, because Be3 so early might not be the set-up White wants, whereas ...Nd7 is pretty much inevitable for Black.
  
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Re: 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be3 (Anti Modern)
Reply #9 - 03/02/20 at 21:06:01
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Hi.

I think 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be3 Nd7 5.Bc4 could be interesting as well. Black looks like he pretty much has to do something against Bxf7+. If 5...e6 white can at least go for the standard plan a4+a5 before black goes a6+b5 and those kinds of positions tend to be hard for black to create play in. Maybe with a bishop on c4 white could be somewhat more worried of d5 at some point.

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Re: 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be3 (Anti Modern)
Reply #8 - 02/16/20 at 17:44:42
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Hi.

The other well known attempts to steer the game towards the Pirc would be:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be2/4.h3
Edit: Both have their points Smiley

After 4.Be3 Nd7 I'm having trouble avoiding some kind of Nd7 KID after 5.c4 (the knight sort of wants to go to f6) or Pirc with a very early Nd7 (after say 5.Nc3).

I have the idea 4.Be3 Nd7 5.c4 Nh6 that I'd be willing to test. Against 4.Be3 Nd7 5.Nc3 I think having played Nd7 is probably a bit limiting but it's not obviously clear black can't get som half decent game. This notion might fall apart if tested against determined oppositon; although at least for now I am unsure.

Have a nice day.

P.S. If nothing else I'll drop some basic analysis and he or she who dares shall be able to go for this on their own.
  
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Re: 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be3 (Anti Modern)
Reply #7 - 02/16/20 at 15:30:19
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MartinC wrote on 02/16/20 at 10:47:50:
iirc the latest edition of Tiger's Modern book ends up with quite a few main line Pirc variations included due to this sort of move order trick. Seemed deeply impractical.

True, but I'll never knock Tiger for being honest about the transpositions now being the best solutions in his view. Many lesser authors would paper over it and pretend there was no problem with the standard setup.

But what annoys me is Tiger doesn't even mention 4...Nd7 as an alternative in these kinds of sneaky Pirc offers by White (also 3.Nf3 d6 4.h3 and 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be2). Maybe he just doesn't consider an early ...Nd7 viable in the Averbakh Modern or the King's Indian? At least in a regular "Tiger's Modern" with Nf3 and Nc3 in, I don't think an early ...Nd7 is a problem.
  

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Re: 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be3 (Anti Modern)
Reply #6 - 02/16/20 at 10:47:50
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You can also just keep developing if black goes a6 - he can't really effectively go b5 until you play Nc3.

iirc the latest edition of Tiger's Modern book ends up with quite a few main line Pirc variations included due to this sort of move order trick. Seemed deeply impractical.
  
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Re: 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be3 (Anti Modern)
Reply #5 - 02/14/20 at 19:09:14
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Hi.

RdC wrote on 02/13/20 at 20:38:01:
Confused_by_Theory wrote on 02/10/20 at 20:43:03:
Hi.

The move order:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be3
Appears to cause some problems for the Modern player.


The idea of keeping c4 in reserve is an interesting one.

You are ruling out plans for White involving f4, but the sequence 1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 d6 4. Be3 a6 5. f4 is mainstream book after it featured in the books on the Tiger Modern.

Mildly off-topic but apparently Kaufman recommends
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.f4
(alongside 4.Bf4 against the Pirc). Coverage is seriously underwhelming in both cases though.

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Re: 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be3 (Anti Modern)
Reply #4 - 02/13/20 at 23:16:10
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 02/13/20 at 19:11:28:
Hey.

Seems there is very little interest.

I am interested in discussing this. It's just that I have no time for chess right now. I will try to contribute something over the weekend.
  

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Re: 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be3 (Anti Modern)
Reply #3 - 02/13/20 at 21:25:13
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Hi.

Keeping the f-pawn in reserve is quite interesting as well Smiley It's a line of Tiger's a6 Austrian there in the end though. Playable but maybe not critical is what I've gathered.

Edit: I suppose it can link into Austrian Pirc as well. Against Be3 black can go a6 early.

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Re: 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be3 (Anti Modern)
Reply #2 - 02/13/20 at 20:38:01
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 02/10/20 at 20:43:03:
Hi.

The move order:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be3
Appears to cause some problems for the Modern player.


The idea of keeping c4 in reserve is an interesting one.

You are ruling out plans for White involving f4, but the sequence 1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 d6 4. Be3 a6 5. f4 is mainstream book after it featured in the books on the Tiger Modern.
  
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Re: 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be3 (Anti Modern)
Reply #1 - 02/13/20 at 19:11:28
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Hey.

Seems there is very little interest.

Anyone would like to play a test game then maybe? Start would be some important or interesting position after 1.e4 g6 2.d4 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be3. Computers allowed but nothing serious, moves via PM and if the position ends up dead we'll just agree a draw.

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1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be3 (Anti Modern)
02/10/20 at 20:43:03
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Hi.

The move order:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be3
Appears to cause some problems for the Modern player. There is an option of going for the Pirc with 4...Nf6 and 95% of the time we would get 5.Nc3 with a very standard Pirc position. Quite a rich one as well, with lots of ways to play for both sides. Do we really want this though? Many Modern players will try to keep the game in less standard territory. Options have been tried. Below I put them up in order of appearance. Personally I don't see anything I truly like though and I'll give at least one line to show why.

Any opinions welcome.

4...Nd7
This seems most serious. A few different types of King's Indian seems possible after 5.c4!?. Possibly 5...Nh6 could be a way to keep the game non-standard because play becomes surprisingly original. White can also go for various moves like 5.h3 or 5.Bc3, where in both cases he will most likely go Nc3 at some point. If that happens Black will be hard pressed to avoid going Ngf6 and transposing to the Pirc (Some kind of 150-attack or Classical Pirc).

4...a6
Since black has spent a tempo on a6 I would be tempted just to go for:
5.c4 Bg4 6.Nc3 Nc6 7.Be2 e5 8.d5 Bxf3 9.Bxf3 Nd4 10.O-O (+=) to (=)
Mildly off-topic: this works in 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Be2 a6 and 1.d4 d6 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 Bg7 4.Nc3 a6!? as well

4...c6 5.c4 Nd7
5...Nh6!? 6.Nc3 f5 7.Qd2 fxe4 8.Nxe4 Nf5 9.O-O-O (+=)
6.Nc3 (+=)

4...Nc6 5.h3!? Nf6
5...e5 6.dxe5 Nxe5 7.Nxe5 Bxe5
7...dxe5 8.Qxd8+ Kxd8 9.Bc4 Bh6 10.Bxf7 Bxe3 11.fxe3 Nf6 12.Nd2 (+=)
8.Qd3 Bg7 9.Nc3 Nf6 10.g4 (+=)
6.d5 Nb8
6...Ne5 7.Nxe5 dxe5 8.Bd3 (+=)
7.Bd3 0-0 8.c4 (+=)

4...c5
5.Nc3 with a likely Dragon or 5.c3 with seems best.

Presumably quite minor alternatives:
4...Bg4 5.Nbd2 Nf6 6.h3 (+=)
4...b6 5.c4 (+=)
4...e6 5.c4 (+=)
4...f5 5.exf5!? Bxf5 6.c3 Nf6 7.Qb3 (+=)
4...e5 5.dxe5 dxe5 (5...Nc6 should not be sound) 6.Qxd8+ Kxd8 7.Ng5 (+=)
4...Bd7 5.Nc3 (+=)
4...h6 5.c4 (+=)
4...Nh6 5.Nc3 Ng4 6.Bg5 (+=)

Have a nice day.
  
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