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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Which 1 d4 Defense is Most Like the French? (Read 3566 times)
bragesjo
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Re: Which 1 d4 Defense is Most Like the French?
Reply #37 - 06/26/20 at 15:47:23
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I gave up Nimzo/Bogo combo in over the board games becouse most club players play London or Colle. Instead I play Ragozin via Queens Gambit move order since without a pawn commited to e6 I can play more agressive lines vs London and Colle. I transpose to Nimzo vs several lines.

However there is nothing wrong with e6 setups and I played it for several years I wanted variation and I dont recommend anyone to changed main defence becouse of dpawn specials.
  
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Seeley
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Re: Which 1 d4 Defense is Most Like the French?
Reply #36 - 06/25/20 at 10:09:57
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RoleyPoley wrote on 06/25/20 at 08:21:20:
Whatever opening you play via 1.e6 is going to hit up against the same problem isnt it?
Precisely.

Mtal wrote on 06/24/20 at 03:30:50:
If i had unlimited time, I thinkni would chose the semi-slav.
But the people who play London or Colle setups against your Dutch aren't going to enter complex theoretical lines against the Semi-Slav; they're going to play London or Colle setups against that too.


RoleyPoley wrote on 06/25/20 at 08:21:20:
If you already play classical or stonewall system and like it against g3 set ups, then presumably you can continue to use it and only learn a new line against the London/Colle set ups instead of a whole new variation on top of that
This seems like a good solution, because if you do learn, say, the Semi-Slav, you're not solving the problem that's bothering you at the moment, you're just shifting it onto different territory.
  
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RoleyPoley
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Re: Which 1 d4 Defense is Most Like the French?
Reply #35 - 06/25/20 at 08:21:20
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Mtal wrote on 06/25/20 at 03:26:08:
What I meant was that I hardly get any games with g3 being played. I just get a little board playimg against london and colle set ups over and over.


I'm not sure i follow. Whatever opening you play via 1.e6 is going to hit up against the same problem isnt it? People play the London and Colle set ups primarily because they can play it against all or most of black's set ups.

If you already play classical or stonewall system and like it against g3 set ups, then presumably you can continue to use it and only learn a new line against the London/Colle set ups instead of a whole new variation on top of that (especially as in another thread you talked about learning new openings with white and had a concern about whether you had the time to do so.

  

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Re: Which 1 d4 Defense is Most Like the French?
Reply #34 - 06/25/20 at 06:10:50
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Their plan is working.
  
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Re: Which 1 d4 Defense is Most Like the French?
Reply #33 - 06/25/20 at 03:26:08
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What I meant was that I hardly get any games with g3 being played. I just get a little board playimg against london and colle set ups over and over.
  
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Seeley
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Re: Which 1 d4 Defense is Most Like the French?
Reply #32 - 06/24/20 at 10:35:22
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RoleyPoley wrote on 06/24/20 at 10:18:06:
That was my first thought too - but i wonder if he plays the Leningrad rather than Stonewall or Classical?

You're absolutely right and, like you, I did wonder if that was the reason. Even so, if he's looking for something that gives him the 'attacking positions' he says he wants, the Classical Dutch is worth considering as an alternative and he doesn't mention it as a possibility.
  
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Re: Which 1 d4 Defense is Most Like the French?
Reply #31 - 06/24/20 at 10:18:06
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Seeley wrote on 06/24/20 at 09:43:54:
Mtal wrote on 06/24/20 at 03:30:50:
I am a dutch player but get so many anti-dutchs I want something new.

Mtal wrote on 06/24/20 at 03:30:50:
I think I will look at openings where I can play e6 like I do on move one.

Surely if you played into the Dutch with 1...e6 instead of 1...f5, you'd avoid most of the anti-Dutch lines. It's not clear from your post why you're rejecting that option.


That was my first thought too - but i wonder if he plays the Leningrad rather than Stonewall or Classical?

  

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Re: Which 1 d4 Defense is Most Like the French?
Reply #30 - 06/24/20 at 09:43:54
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Mtal wrote on 06/24/20 at 03:30:50:
I am a dutch player but get so many anti-dutchs I want something new.

Mtal wrote on 06/24/20 at 03:30:50:
I think I will look at openings where I can play e6 like I do on move one.

Surely if you played into the Dutch with 1...e6 instead of 1...f5, you'd avoid most of the anti-Dutch lines. It's not clear from your post why you're rejecting that option.
  
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Re: Which 1 d4 Defense is Most Like the French?
Reply #29 - 06/24/20 at 03:30:50
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Glad I came accross this post. I love the french myself and have mated many with it. I been considering what I should play against d4. I am a dutch player but get so many anti-dutchs I want something new.

Well fist off, you could look at what some of the great French players did. Uhlmann played the kid. Botvinnik and Bronstein played the nimzo, dutch, kid, and Botvinnik played the semi-slav.

If i had unlimited time, I thinkni would chose the semi-slav. Just because the positions are so complex, it just reminds me of the winawer.

You could also try the english defence. Some lines are pretty sharp and some of the positions look like a b6 french.

I think I will look at openings where I can play e6 like I do on move one. I am thinking of things like the nimzo and modern benoni. I have to start researching but I feel they won't give me the attacking positions I get in the french.

So have you decided on anything?
  
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Re: Which 1 d4 Defense is Most Like the French?
Reply #28 - 03/17/20 at 04:08:09
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That's an easy question to answer.

King's Indian Defense!

Just like the French, it frequently results in a blocked center, and the strategy is the same.  With the center blocked, each side attacks on the side in which their blocked pawns point!

In the French, White's pawns point to the Kingside, Black's to the Queenside.

In the King's Indian, Mar Del Plata, Black's point Kingside, White's Queenside.

If the French Defense is the opening you best understand, play 1.e4.  Yes, it will require study of other openings like the Sicilian and 1...e5, but you'll also get the French!

There is always, no matter how you set your repertoire up, at minimum one opening that you must understand from both sides.  For me, it's two (French Advance and Saemisch King's Indian) because I answer the Pirc with 3.f3 instead of 3.Nc3.
  
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Re: Which 1 d4 Defense is Most Like the French?
Reply #27 - 02/14/20 at 18:31:17
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Arnaudov wrote on 02/14/20 at 11:01:48:
The Semi-Slave it is! (Yay.)

I have availed myself of both the Schandorff GR 20 and Vigorito's earlier work (introductory info and early moves). Scanning Schandorff and looking at his emphasis/preference for ...dxc4 is, as you say, intriguing. I'm all in: my decision to play 1 d4 as White and Schandorff's book, with your endorsement, inspired me to subscribe to the d4 d5 section.

Once I have got these better digested I'm sure I would enjoy your course on Chessable, thank you!

Good luck with the US Champion!  Wink

Well, I would note that what exists of it currently (and only as a Lichess study, it is still at least a few months away from becoming a course on Chessable) is intended exactly to provide an easier starting point than the existing literature. So I would hope it would be more useful now than after reading those books - certainly, feedback from a newbie to the opening would be greatly appreciated.
Anyway, enough self promotion. Both of those books are good, although Vigorito's is obviously a little dated and this is especially relevant to his coverage of non Semi-Slav lines. Schandorff's book by contrast holds up abnormally well for a by now roughly five year old book, and there are only a few areas where I disagree with his recommendations. Good luck with the Semi-Slav!
« Last Edit: 02/14/20 at 20:00:41 by Jack Hughes »  
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Re: Which 1 d4 Defense is Most Like the French?
Reply #26 - 02/14/20 at 16:12:22
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Lauri Torni wrote on 02/14/20 at 13:40:28:
Examples of possible (approximative) pairs (I know. This is also matter of taste.): 
Sweshnikov and Grynfeld
Petroff and QGA
French and KI
Semi-slav and Najdorf
Spanish and NI
Caro-Kann and Slav


I don't find much in common between any of these, but the pairing that made the least sense to me was the first. In the Grünfeld, Black has no structural weaknesses, but must contend with White's imposing pawn centre. Conversely, in the Sveshnikov, Black has a glaring hole on -d5 and a central majority.
Black gets active piece play in both, sure, but it seems a little slim to base any analogy off of that criterium alone.
If I had to choose an e4 opening that shares something in common with the Grünfeld, it would have to be the ...g6 lines of either the Alekhine or the 2. ...Nf6 Scandinavian.
  
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Re: Which 1 d4 Defense is Most Like the French?
Reply #25 - 02/14/20 at 13:40:28
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I don't think trying to find similar openings for black against 1.e4 and 1.d4, not to speak about 1.c4 and 1.Nf3, is fruitful. The positions are always too different.

However, it might be possible to find openings shearing such aspects as:

pawn structure closed/flexible/open
theoretically heavy/decent/light
tactically heavy/decent/light
positionally complex/decent/simple
positionally healthy/unhealthy but dynamic
etc.

Examples of possible (approximative) pairs (I know. This is also matter of taste.): 
Sweshnikov and Grynfeld
Petroff and QGA
French and KI
Semi-slav and Najdorf
Spanish and NI
Caro-Kann and Slav


  

1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
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Re: Which 1 d4 Defense is Most Like the French?
Reply #24 - 02/14/20 at 11:01:48
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The Semi-Slave it is! (Yay.)

I have availed myself of both the Schandorff GR 20 and Vigorito's earlier work (introductory info and early moves). Scanning Schandorff and looking at his emphasis/preference for ...dxc4 is, as you say, intriguing. I'm all in: my decision to play 1 d4 as White and Schandorff's book, with your endorsement, inspired me to subscribe to the d4 d5 section.

Once I have got these better digested I'm sure I would enjoy your course on Chessable, thank you!

Good luck with the US Champion!  Wink
  
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Re: Which 1 d4 Defense is Most Like the French?
Reply #23 - 02/13/20 at 23:59:22
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Arnaudov wrote on 02/13/20 at 20:42:25:
Jack Hughes wrote on 02/12/20 at 20:10:34:
If you're happy with the Burn Variation then maybe you wouldn't be too bothered by this. To help figure out if this bothers you I would recommend just clicking through a database for a moves in the lines where black does this (in the Semi-Slav this would be the Botvinnik/Anti-Moscow Gambit and the Meran) and thinking about whether you're concerned by the lack of a pawn on d5.


Is this the sort of line you mean?

1 d4 d5 2 c4 c6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Nf3 e6 5 Bg5 Nbd7 6 e3 h6 7 Bh4 g5 8 Bg3 Nh5 9 Qc2 Nxg3 10 hxg3 Bg7 11 O-O-O Qe7 12 Kb1 dxc4

or

1 d4 d5 2 c4 c6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 e3 e6 5 Nf3 Nbd7 6 Qc2 Bd6 7 Bd3 O-O 8 O-O dxc4 

I'd be happy to defend such positions. Maybe the Semi-Slav would work for me after all.

Yes, those are the sorts of positions I was talking about. If you're happy with them then I think you should be good to go.
In fact in the latter line black isn't really forced to take on c4, with 6... b6 and especially 8... e5 being pretty reasonable alternatives. In terms of lines that practically force you to take on c4 6. Bd3 (the Meran) would be the problem, since 6... Bd6 7. e4 is a very easy and pleasant advantage for white. Theoretically speaking however 6. Bd3 has fallen under hard times recently, and so if you're taking on c4 in the 6. Qc2 (Anti-Meran) lines then the Meran should be even less of a problem. After 5. Bg5 there is also the immediate 5... dxc4 (the Botvinnik Variation), a line which I love to a possibly slightly unhealthy degree. In fact it does get compared to a major line of the French (the Winawer Poisoned Pawn), albeit because they are often identified as the two sharpest lines in all of chess. In general I would say that if you're happy with the two positions listed above then you should be good to go with the Semi-Slav. There is still the question of move order, with the main options being the Triangle (1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 c6 4. Nf3 Nf6 and 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 c6) and Slav (1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3/Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3/Nf3 e6), assuming you don't want to learn the Nimzo. The former allows the Marshall Gambit (1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 c6 4. e4) and Catalan; the latter allows the Exchange Slav (1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5) and Slow Slav (1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3), all of which are just as critical as anything in the Semi-Slav.
If you're interested in studying the Semi-Slav then feel free to contact me on Lichess (@jgh1996). Before I found out that I would have to compete with Sam Shankland I made a start working on a potential Semi-Slav course for black on Chessable  in the form of a Lichess study that I would be willing to share. It's nowhere near complete, and with Shankland having an upcoming course I don't know if it ever will be, but the first two chapters are fairly close and currently provide a roughly 45,000 word introduction to the Semi-Slav and the lines I was/am intending to recommend.
As far as books go it was Lar Schandorff's 'Grandmaster Repertoire' volume that first piqued my interest in the opening, and theoretically speaking its chosen lines are still holding up quite well. It does however start with the Semi-Slav itself so you would need to supplement it with another book covering white's alternatives.
  
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