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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How playable is the QGD Exchange for black? (Read 30947 times)
FreeRepublic
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #119 - 04/19/23 at 19:20:12
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Black did not appear to have much trouble:

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cd5 ed5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 h6 7. Bh4 Be7 8. Bd3 O-O 9. Qc2 Re8 10. Nge2 Nbd7 11. O-O a5!? 12. a3 Nh5 13. Be7 Qe7 14. Rae1 Nf8 15. Nc1 Nf6 16. f3 Ne6 17. N1e2 c5 18. Bb5 Rd8 19. dc5 Qc5 20. Qd2 Bd7 21. Bd7
Nd7 22. Nd4 Nb6 23. Rd1 Nc4 24. Qf2 Rac8 25. Na4 Qe7 26. Rfe1 Qf6 27. Nb5 Nc7 28. Nd4 Ne6 1/2-1/2
Nepomniachtchi, Ian - Ding Liren WCh 2023, Round 3

White didn't obtain the minority attack or the central pawn roller. Black accepted an isolated queen pawn instead.  Tarrasch: "He who fears an isolated Queen's Pawn should give up Chess."
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #118 - 01/20/23 at 01:59:10
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kylemeister wrote on 12/15/22 at 18:00:40:
Some old theory on 10...g6 from the last(?) edition of ECO-D (2004):

11. Rab1 (11. Rae1 Nh5 12. Bxe7 Rxe7 13. b4 Ndf6 14. Ne5 Ng7= Izeta-Andersson, Bilbao 1987) Nh5* 12. Bxe7 Qxe7 13. b4 a6 14. a4 Nb6! (Miniböck-G. Soppe, Istanbul ol 2000) 15. Nd2 Ng7 16. Rfc1 Bf5 17. b5 ab 18. ab c5 19. dc Qxc5 20. Nb3 Qe7 21. Nd4 Bxd3 22. Qxd3 Ne6= G. Llanos, G. Soppe

*The first edition (1976) gave only 11...Ne4 and 11...a5 12. a3 Ne4, and had both as leading to +=.


After 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 Be7 7. Bd3 O-O 8. Qc2 Re8 9. Nf3 Nbd7 10. O-O g6, I think 11.Rb1 going for the minority attack is an obvious continuation. However, 11.Rae1 and 11.h3 have been played also. What I like about 10...g6 is that Black has several ways to deploy his knights.

Guillermo Soppe tends to play 11...Nh5. Max Illingworth (analysis at ChessPublishing) tends towards 11...Ne4. After 11.Rb1, Black can consider 11...Nh5, 11...Ne4, 11...Nf8, or 11...Nb6. Here is a possible line with 11...Nb6:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 Be7 7.
Bd3 O-O 8. Qc2 Re8 9. Nf3 Nbd7 10. O-O g6 11. Rab1 Nb6 12. b4 Nc4 (threatening ...Na3 winning the exchange). Now for example, 13. Bc4 dc4 14. e4 Bg4 15. Ne5 (15Rfd1? Nxe4!) Qxd4 16. Bf6 Bf6 17. Ng4 Qc3, which favors Black slightly.

Flear, ChessPublishing Dec 22, analyzed the exciting game Korobov, A - Jumabayev. Jumabayev played 10...Nf8. However, the game position could also have been reached with 10...g6 after:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 Be7 7.Bd3 O-O 8. Qc2 Re8 9. Nf3 Nbd7 10. O-O g6 11. h3 Nh5 12. Bh6 Ng7 13. Rae1 Nf6 14. g4
« Last Edit: 01/20/23 at 16:13:00 by FreeRepublic »  
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Dink Heckler
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #117 - 12/16/22 at 18:18:37
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Got it; thanks.
  

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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #116 - 12/15/22 at 20:11:19
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Dink Heckler wrote on 12/15/22 at 18:01:20:
I'm sorry; what does SF24 mean, please?


Sorry. That is just my shorthand for a Stockfish evaluation of 24, or a quarter of a pawn.

Maybe SF 32, was more like it anyway.

I've concluded that computer scoring is not absolute. Words like, "Black can deal with White's temporary initiative" and "White has the better pawn structure but Black should be able to defend" have different implications. The former is temporary, while the latter is not. This applies even if the two positions get the same numerical score from the computer engine.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #115 - 12/15/22 at 18:01:20
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I'm sorry; what does SF24 mean, please?
  

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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #114 - 12/15/22 at 18:00:40
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Some old theory on 10...g6 from the last(?) edition of ECO-D (2004):

11. Rab1 (11. Rae1 Nh5 12. Bxe7 Rxe7 13. b4 Ndf6 14. Ne5 Ng7= Izeta-Andersson, Bilbao 1987) Nh5* 12. Bxe7 Qxe7 13. b4 a6 14. a4 Nb6! (Miniböck-G. Soppe, Istanbul ol 2000) 15. Nd2 Ng7 16. Rfc1 Bf5 17. b5 ab 18. ab c5 19. dc Qxc5 20. Nb3 Qe7 21. Nd4 Bxd3 22. Qxd3 Ne6= G. Llanos, G. Soppe

*The first edition (1976) gave only 11...Ne4 and 11...a5 12. a3 Ne4, and had both as leading to +=.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #113 - 12/15/22 at 16:07:01
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I went ahead and bought this, my first CBM edition. I had trouble  paying, the download, and importation into ChessBase. However, it is all working fine now, even interactive video. My problems were  due to operator (myself) error. Still, I never had this much trouble with ChessPublishing.

As to Eliskases idea of 10...g6, I note that four of the eight annotated games were played by Guillermo Soppe. Soppe variation? The overview and annotations by Martin Lorenzini are good, as are the games.

One advantage of 10...g6 compared to similar lines stemming from 10...Nf8 is that Black retains flexibility on the placement of his knights. The king knight can go to e4 or h5. The queen knight can go to b6, f6, or f8. I look forward to playing this line. I need actually practice to decide what I think.

I found another variation which promises SF0. However GM Tan says that White has chances in practice. I would just have to play some games to decide if I like careful defense and counter-attack to offset White's aggression.

Back to the Soppe variation. When both sides play well, we may be looking at something like SF24. Is that good enough? Well I think it is if I understand the position better than my opponent. Actual play from players much stronger than myself indicates that there are numerous ups and downs, at least according the computer.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #112 - 12/15/22 at 02:24:14
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Short preview here. It doesn't show much beyond 10...g6.
https://en.chessbase.com/post/cbm-203-special-on-ian-nepomniachtchi-top-duels-fr...
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #111 - 12/14/22 at 20:32:38
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Thanks for the information!
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #110 - 12/14/22 at 17:55:03
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FreeRepublic wrote on 12/14/22 at 16:53:23:
What issue was that? Do you know if it is available electronically?

Here it is.
https://shop.chessbase.com/en/products/chessbase_magazine_203#
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #109 - 12/14/22 at 16:53:23
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kylemeister wrote on 09/02/21 at 23:40:54:
FreeRepublic wrote on 09/02/21 at 20:49:27:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. cxd5 exd5 6. Bg5 c6 7. e3 Be7 8. Qc2 O-O 9. Bd3 Re8 10. O-O g6

I noticed that that is the subject of an article in the latest CBM, which attributes it to Eliskases. 


What issue was that? Do you know if it is available electronically?
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #108 - 09/27/22 at 21:41:31
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There is no shortage of sources on the Queen's Gambit Declined (QGD) exchange variation. It is a very rich line. Sometimes I wonder when published material covers the opening, which one might hope to learn before playing a game, and when it provides middle game examples, problems which you and I must ultimately solve in play.

Recently GM Quintillano (Modern-Chess) has presented the opening from the Black side. In the Nge2 lines, he focuses on ...Nh5 lines. Grandmaster Roiz (Modern-Chess) presents from the White side - in two parts. International Master Tibor Karolyi (Forward Chess, 2018) takes Black's side. It seems to me that he tries to look at all lines, rather than a narrow repertoire choice. This has the advantage that one can look at several lines before choosing one. The opening is also covered well in QGD repertoire books such as the one by GM Nigel Davies. ChessPublishing has provided much insightful analysis.

With so much material, one might expect a lot of overlap. Of course, there is some overlap, but also lines that do not overlap, and even some lines that are not covered!

After 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 Be7 6. e3 O-O 7. Bd3 Re8 8. Nge2 c6 9. Qc2 Nbd7 10. O-O Nf8 11. f3.

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Roiz, Karoly, Davies, ChessPub, look at 11...Be6. Black develops and intends ...Rc8 with a flexible position. Perhaps a little less popular these days is 11...g6, which achieves many objectives and is also well covered in the literature.

Another move is 11...Ng6. This is an old move found in ECO but largely neglected today. Ruslan Scherbakov, Chess Pub, covers this well in the game Graf-Panchenko, 1986. It is also covered by GM Hammer in a video at Chess24. Hammer said it has been underestimated for a century.

All the moves mentioned, plus 11...b5 covered by Karolyi, have their merit. One thing that I like about 11...Ng6 is that if white does nothing, Black can play 12...h6. White usually continues with the forcing 12.e4 dxe 13.fxe.

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Scherbakov and Hammer continue with 13...Be6!? which seems to be adequate in complex play. Not covered as far as I can tell is 13...Ng4!?

Of course, there are many other lines that White or Black may choose. One thing seems clear, the exhaustive book on the QGD exchange variation has yet to be written. It's probably impossible.
« Last Edit: 09/28/22 at 00:34:09 by FreeRepublic »  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #107 - 09/12/22 at 00:10:48
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An example page of Bill Harvey's, where I got this idea: https://wtharvey.com/abdu.html

Maybe these posts deserve their own topic: How to create a spoiler?
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #106 - 09/11/22 at 12:18:42
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Fiendish.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #105 - 09/09/22 at 02:40:09
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Yes, _someone_ is clever -- I saw this on a tactics website, where they used white on white. I am vacationing right now so unfortunately cannot give proper attribution at the moment.
  
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