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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How playable is the QGD Exchange for black? (Read 6775 times)
an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #22 - 05/18/21 at 20:51:53
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Rizzitano (2007) Chess Explained: The Queen's Gambit Declined, covers the Alatortsev in chapter one. If you "Look inside" the kindle sample on amazon.com, you can see all of chapter one.
https://www.amazon.com/Chess-Explained-Queens-Gambit-Declined-ebook/dp/B00H8Q5JS...

Dreev (2016) Bf4 in the Queen's Gambit and the Exchange Slav calls this the Petrosian Variation and gives 58 pages.
https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/7607.pdf

Actually I'm not sure why Dreev did that. He doesn't really explain it in the preface. 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 4.Nf3 (instead of 4.cxd5 in his part two) when black doesn't have anything better than 4...Nf6 transposing to his part three (5.Bf4). Maybe he just wanted to cover some interesting chess in a book on the Queen's Gambit.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #21 - 05/18/21 at 18:18:37
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I'm intending to follow FreeRepublic's comment / recommendation of 3..., Be7. While you have to be able to play against the non-critical Nf3 lines, the Alatortsev does seem very interesting with lots of scope for piece-play and changing pawn structures.
In terms of books recommending it, I've drawn a blank but it is covered by Janjgava. I had it pointed out to me in another conversation that Marin recommends it in his Modern Chess course on the Tartakower and I have just bought the LTR by Colvic on Chessable, where he goes for the Alatortsev.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #20 - 05/18/21 at 04:19:43
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Euwe might know. Pachman (1969) Queen's Gambit (pages 112-113) calls 3...a6 Janowski's move, and three-fifths of his quoted game fragments involved Euwe:
It seems to be named for Pillsbury - Janowski, London 1899 https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1109172
Edited:
This was in rd 20. I see Janowski already played it in rd 1 vs Tinsley, rd 2 vs Steinitz, rd 5 vs Showalter, rd 10 vs Lasker, rd 11 vs Mason, rd 17 vs Lee, and that was all his black games after 1.d4.


But anyway, in Janowski's variation black is "supposed" to delay ...Ng8-f6 to avoid the pinning Bc1-g5, similar to white's play in the Exchange Caro-Kann. Otherwise it's an ordinary Exchange QGD with ...a6 instead of ...c6. After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 a6!? 5.cxd5 exd5 (or 3...a6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Nf3 Nf6!? I should note for the record that Pachman considers 5.Bf4 c6 6.e3 stronger than 5.Nf3 c6 6.Bf4, but does not consider 5.Nf3 Nf6) 6.Bg5, the most popular move is 6...Be6 (6...Be7 7.Qc2 looks most accurate to me) but then I think 7.Bxf6 Qxf6 8.Qb3 leads to concrete play. As I said, 4...a6!? caught my eye. No doubt the GM did not recommend a bad line, so I'm wondering about it.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #19 - 05/18/21 at 01:35:12
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/18/21 at 01:03:25:
His chapter on 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 a6!? (page 76) caught my eye. If you like that for black, then why not on the third move? After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 a6!? I don't think white has anything better than 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Nf3, when 5...Nf6 transposes. Make no mistake, I'm not *recommending* this for black, I'm just pointing out a transposition. Black has to be really careful here, so I do wonder what he has in mind for club players.

I recalled 3...a6 as perhaps the original version; I see that Fine (1940s) and Euwe (1970s) attributed it to Janowski.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #18 - 05/18/21 at 01:03:25
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There is also a chapter on the Karlsbader Variante starting on page 63, which might include the Botvinnik plan.

His chapter on 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 a6!? (page 76) caught my eye. If you like that for black, then why not on the third move? After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 a6!? I don't think white has anything better than 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Nf3, when 5...Nf6 transposes. Make no mistake, I'm not *recommending* this for black, I'm just pointing out a transposition. Black has to be really careful here, so I do wonder what he has in mind for club players.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #17 - 05/17/21 at 22:06:01
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By the way, a recent book in German by GM Michael Prusikin addresses the main line Exchange from a Black perspective.
https://www.schachversand.de/das-damengambit.html

A couple of things I'm a bit curious about:

--what is presented in the apparently 2 pages on how to effectively fight against the Botvinnik plan?
--what is it that he is calling the "soft" Carlsbad structure?
« Last Edit: 05/18/21 at 03:41:24 by kylemeister »  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #16 - 05/17/21 at 21:36:02
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It is a boon to black if he feels comfortable in the main line of the X variation. It can be reached by various mover orders (for example 1c4 e6 2Nc3 d5 3cxd) and remains flexible relative to Be7 systems (e.g. the Tartakover variation) and Nbd7 systems (e.g. the Cambridge Springs variation). My general assessment is that black's position is good but white's position is very good. In other words, white generally remains better. Still, is there a way for black to make it over the hump and get a completely satisfactory game in the exchange variation?

GM Max Illingworth analyzed the game Navara-Hansen for ChessPublishing (CP Sep 2016). It started:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 Be7 7. Bd3 Nbd7 8. Qc2 O-O 9. Nf3 Re8 10. O-O. Hansen played the main line 10...Nf8 and after 11h3! g6!? Max analyzes this extensively.

However along the way Max briefly considers 10...g6, "to prepare ...Ne4 also deserves attention, given that I am recommending ... g6 in many positions." I think there is another CP analysis of this position, but I can't find the date. If black is going to play ...g6, then he has alternatives to the main Nf8-g6 or Nf8-e6 circuit. ...Ne4 and ...Ndf6 seems ideal, while ...Nh5 or ...Nb6 are also possible.

After 10...g6, 11h3 is as good as any, then ...Ne4 12Bf4 Ndf6 13Ne5. In my notes I have both 13...Nd6 and 13...Bd6, attributed to CP. I prefer 13...Bd6, then 14Rab1 Qe7 15a3 Bf5, where the natural 16b4 is well answered by 16...Nxc3.

White has other moves and plans. That may be the nature of his advantage. Yet perhaps black can hang in there regardless.

One problem with computer analysis is what I can meandering. You can see this in a simple fortress position (say with queen vs rook) where the engine is content to maintain its "plus" without making any progress. Sometimes the engine seems content to meander as white in some exchange variation positions, content to claim an advantage without making progress. In such a case white's claimed advantage is not real. On the other hand some human chess players will likewise meander, just waiting for a mistake!
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #15 - 11/10/20 at 17:23:42
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Heuristic wrote on 05/17/20 at 20:34:08:
It never made sense to me the exchange variation didn't become the main line


I find it to be a fun line to play with either color. As to its absolute merit, one may have to dig into the weeds in a number of variations to come to a conclusion. The lines where white doubles and isolates black's f pawns have little appeal to me, from either side. But yes, I could certainly see the exchange variation as being the "main line" of the Queen's Gambit Declined (QGD).

Alternatives to the Exchange variation are interesting too. However, I don't see them as being quite as threatening to Black.

I suspect that one reason why the exchange variation is not seen more often at higher levels is that the QGD it is reached through the move order: 1d4 Nf6 2c4 e6 3Nf3 d5. Answering the exchange variation is not so difficult when white has played an early Nf3 (though still not trivial).

If black plays the move order above to avoid the more dangerous lines in the exchange variation, he will probably answer 3Nc3 with 3...Bb4. The Nimzo seems to be fine for black. Still, knowing all lines will take some work.

So the dilemma for white is whether to play 3Nc3, allowing the Nimzo, or 3Nf3, which allows a variety of responses to include the QGD, but where the exchange variation is not so potent.

Black has move order issues also. If he goes for a Nimzo-Indian, he has to choose a line vs. 3Nf3. Each requires some preparation.

If black does choose to play the QGD as his universal response, for example 1d4 d5 2c4 e6, then he does not have to learn the Nimzo, but he does have to find a line he likes in the exchange variation.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #14 - 10/18/20 at 06:38:27
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11...g6 12.Bh6 Bd6 13.Rab1 a5 14.a3 (perhaps better 14.Rfe1 immediately) Ne6 15.Rfe1 prevents ...Bf5, but b6 quite easily held the draw in Joachimsthaler-Ferlito, corr 2012. The same happened after 13...Ne6 14.b4 a5 in two more corr. games.
My admittedly superficial impression is that Black needs to play accurately for a pretty long time, but then will be able to equalize around move 20 at the latest.
  

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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #13 - 10/17/20 at 20:40:50
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Karolyi gives 12..Bd6 a la S. Volkov - A. Rychagov, Paleochora Open, 2012
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #12 - 10/17/20 at 19:55:13
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MNb wrote on 10/17/20 at 18:32:03:
And I'm not fully convinced for White after (somewhat ironically) 11...g6. Black's play can be improved in the games Khenkin-Asrian, Moscow 2001 and Kovaljov-Vavrak, Benidorm 2009.

I see that 12. Rab1 was played in those games, as it was in Navara-S. B. Hansen 2015, a game used by Illingworth.  Kryavkin's Attacking with g2-g4: The Modern Way to Get the Upper Hand in Chess gave 12. Bh6 as "!", portraying it as leading to an advantage for White.*  I don't know what (if anything) Illingworth had to say about 12. Bh6.  I also don't know what Károlyi had to say about it in The Exchange Queen's Gambit for Black, but I see that he addressed it.

*see p. 99
https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/9089.pdf
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #11 - 10/17/20 at 18:32:03
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FreeRepublic wrote on 10/17/20 at 17:53:58:
Also, you need to have an answer you like versus 9Nf3. I'm not fully convinced for black after 9Nf3 Re8 10 0-0 Nf8 11h3!

And I'm not fully convinced for White after (somewhat ironically) 11...g6. Black's play can be improved in the games Khenkin-Asrian, Moscow 2001 and Kovaljov-Vavrak, Benidorm 2009.

  

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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #10 - 10/17/20 at 17:53:58
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stockhausen wrote on 02/13/20 at 15:16:30:
In particular has anyone tried Illingworth's line 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 c6 6.e3 Be7 7.Bd3 Nbd7 8.Qc2 0-0 9.Nge2 Re8 10.0-0 Nf8 11.f3 g6 ?
Can this be used as the main response to 1.d4?


I think it looks OK. Also, you need to have an answer you like versus 9Nf3. I'm not fully convinced for black after 9Nf3 Re8 10 0-0 Nf8 11h3!

An option for black does well is to play 8...Nh5!? White can side-step that with 8Nge2 which will likely get you back to Illingworth's recommendation.

CP has had some excellent analysis following Petrosian's 3...Be7 4cxd exd. It's complicated, but I think Black does OK according to theory. In practice, you'd better know your theory! If you are willing to wade into the complexities of that line, it might provide the best opportunity to "play for all three results."

I don't know of any books that advocate 3...Be7. The venerable ECO is usually a good place to start. ChessPublishing's archived material is the best source to my knowledge.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #9 - 05/17/20 at 20:34:08
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It never made sense to me the exchange variation didn't become the main line after Kasparovs handling of it.

Here are two different ways of countering it by Ulf Andersson. Both failed

game 1 vs Ulf Anderssonhttps://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1070305

game 2: https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1020567
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #8 - 03/17/20 at 01:41:59
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Bibs wrote on 03/16/20 at 23:32:40:
It refers to the new series by Hammer, on chess24.
A ‘classical’ approach with black - 1.e4 e5, 1.d4 d5.
OCP - are you predicting the imminent demise of c24?!

(Non-disclaimer - I have no connection at all with any chess publisher - books, online, whatever.)

Happy chessing!

Thanks for the reference.

I don't know enough to make any concrete predictions like that. I didn't even know it was chess24. But I think my prediction was safe enough in probabilistic terms, over all chess content sites, if "some probability" is in the range 25% to 33%.

If both chess24 and I are still kicking in 10 years time, I will try to revisit my other prediction, that Hammer's series is not available there anymore.
  
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