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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How playable is the QGD Exchange for black? (Read 39617 times)
FreeRepublic
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #29 - 05/19/21 at 12:56:59
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FreeRepublic wrote on 05/17/21 at 21:36:02:
One problem with computer analysis is what I can meandering.


This makes more sense with the intended word "call."

One problem with computer analysis is what I call meandering.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #28 - 05/19/21 at 12:49:35
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/18/21 at 20:51:53:
Rizzitano (2007) Chess Explained: The Queen's Gambit Declined, covers the Alatortsev in chapter one. If you "Look inside" the kindle sample on amazon.com, you can see all of chapter one.


Indeed. Game 2 Onishchuk-Lputian covers a critical line: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Be7!? 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bf4 c6!? 6. e3!? Bf5 7. g4 Be6 8. h4 Nd7 9. h5 Nh6! 10. Be2 Nb6. I haven't reviewed all his analysis yet.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #27 - 05/19/21 at 11:02:16
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kylemeister wrote on 05/17/21 at 22:06:01:
By the way, a recent book in German by GM Michael Prusikin addresses the main line Exchange from a Black perspective.
https://www.schachversand.de/das-damengambit.html

A couple of things I'm a bit curious about:

--what is presented in the apparently 2 pages on how to effectively fight against the Botvinnik plan?
--what is it that he is calling the "soft" Carlsbad structure?


I shouldn't give away too much, but against 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 c6 6.Qc2 h6 7.Bh4 Be7 8.e3 0-0 9.Bd3 Re8 10.Sge2 ("Botvinnik plan") Prusikin discusses 10...Nbd7 11.f3 b5.
The "soft" Carlsbad structure is defined by the pawns a7-b6-c6-d5.

And he doesn't like 3.Nc3 a6 so much because of 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Qb3, for example 5...c6 (or 5...Nf6 6.Bg5 c6 7.e4) 6.e4 dxe4 7.Bc4 Qe7 8.a4 and White has some pressure.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #26 - 05/19/21 at 06:26:52
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kylemeister wrote on 05/18/21 at 01:35:12:
I recalled 3...a6 as perhaps the original version; I see that Fine (1940s) and Euwe (1970s) attributed it to Janowski.

So did Taimanov in 1980.
  

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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #25 - 05/18/21 at 23:13:47
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When I wrote "I'm not sure why Dreev did that", I wasn't talking about why he called it the Petrosian Variation. I was talking about why he bothered to analyze it, since his other variation with 5.Bf4 covers both move orders. Sorry if I stirred up a hornet's nest. I only mentioned Petrosian Variation since Dreev's book doesn't turn up in a duckduckgo search for Alatortsev Variation.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #24 - 05/18/21 at 22:56:49
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kylemeister wrote on 05/18/21 at 21:10:07:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/18/21 at 20:51:53:
Dreev (2016) Bf4 in the Queen's Gambit and the Exchange Slav calls this the Petrosian Variation

"A refinement attributed to Petrosian, but actually played by Charousek in the 'nineties - and probably dating back even farther." -- Fischer in My 60 Memorable Games


Botvinnik vs Alatortsev, Leningrad 1934, began 1 d4 e6 2 c4 d5 3 Nf3 Be7, which might account for the common attribution.

Fischer was correct: 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Be7 goes back to the 19th century, e.g. it was played a few times by Alapin. It was played only sporadically after that, but it began to be used more often in the 1950s, following the hugely influential game Botvinnik-Keres, USSR Championship 1952, where Black was rolled over by the development scheme with Bd3, Nge2, 0-0 and eventually f3 and e4.

When Petrosian played Botvinnik for the world championship in 1963, he wanted to avoid this scheme, so he played 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Be7 in three games. Suetin, who was part of Petrosian's "team", described 3...Be7 as a "cunning move". That's the simple story of how Petrosian's name became associated with 3...Be7. 

Botvinnik himself wrote: "The point of it is that Black tries to provoke Nf3 before the development of the bishop at g5."

It almost certainly came as no surprise to Botvinnik, who will have noted that Petrosian had already played it against Taimanov in 1959 and Gligoric in 1961. He will also have noted that Fischer played it in his famous game against Bertok in the 1962 Stockholm Interzonal.

So 3..Be7 is not really a system, but a move order finesse to avoid the Carlsbad with Nge2. White must either acquiesce and play an early Nf3, leading to what is generally regarded as a less promising version of the Carlsbad (although Keith Arkell might disagree!), ot else play the independent scheme that Botvinnik had prepared: 4 cxd5 exd5 5 Bf4, leaving the knight on g1 for a while.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #23 - 05/18/21 at 21:10:07
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/18/21 at 20:51:53:
Dreev (2016) Bf4 in the Queen's Gambit and the Exchange Slav calls this the Petrosian Variation

"A refinement attributed to Petrosian, but actually played by Charousek in the 'nineties - and probably dating back even farther." -- Fischer in My 60 Memorable Games
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #22 - 05/18/21 at 20:51:53
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Rizzitano (2007) Chess Explained: The Queen's Gambit Declined, covers the Alatortsev in chapter one. If you "Look inside" the kindle sample on amazon.com, you can see all of chapter one.
https://www.amazon.com/Chess-Explained-Queens-Gambit-Declined-ebook/dp/B00H8Q5JS...

Dreev (2016) Bf4 in the Queen's Gambit and the Exchange Slav calls this the Petrosian Variation and gives 58 pages.
https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/7607.pdf

Actually I'm not sure why Dreev did that. He doesn't really explain it in the preface. 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 4.Nf3 (instead of 4.cxd5 in his part two) when black doesn't have anything better than 4...Nf6 transposing to his part three (5.Bf4). Maybe he just wanted to cover some interesting chess in a book on the Queen's Gambit.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #21 - 05/18/21 at 18:18:37
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I'm intending to follow FreeRepublic's comment / recommendation of 3..., Be7. While you have to be able to play against the non-critical Nf3 lines, the Alatortsev does seem very interesting with lots of scope for piece-play and changing pawn structures.
In terms of books recommending it, I've drawn a blank but it is covered by Janjgava. I had it pointed out to me in another conversation that Marin recommends it in his Modern Chess course on the Tartakower and I have just bought the LTR by Colvic on Chessable, where he goes for the Alatortsev.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #20 - 05/18/21 at 04:19:43
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Euwe might know. Pachman (1969) Queen's Gambit (pages 112-113) calls 3...a6 Janowski's move, and three-fifths of his quoted game fragments involved Euwe:
It seems to be named for Pillsbury - Janowski, London 1899 https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1109172
Edited:
This was in rd 20. I see Janowski already played it in rd 1 vs Tinsley, rd 2 vs Steinitz, rd 5 vs Showalter, rd 10 vs Lasker, rd 11 vs Mason, rd 17 vs Lee, and that was all his black games after 1.d4.


But anyway, in Janowski's variation black is "supposed" to delay ...Ng8-f6 to avoid the pinning Bc1-g5, similar to white's play in the Exchange Caro-Kann. Otherwise it's an ordinary Exchange QGD with ...a6 instead of ...c6. After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 a6!? 5.cxd5 exd5 (or 3...a6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Nf3 Nf6!? I should note for the record that Pachman considers 5.Bf4 c6 6.e3 stronger than 5.Nf3 c6 6.Bf4, but does not consider 5.Nf3 Nf6) 6.Bg5, the most popular move is 6...Be6 (6...Be7 7.Qc2 looks most accurate to me) but then I think 7.Bxf6 Qxf6 8.Qb3 leads to concrete play. As I said, 4...a6!? caught my eye. No doubt the GM did not recommend a bad line, so I'm wondering about it.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #19 - 05/18/21 at 01:35:12
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/18/21 at 01:03:25:
His chapter on 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 a6!? (page 76) caught my eye. If you like that for black, then why not on the third move? After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 a6!? I don't think white has anything better than 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Nf3, when 5...Nf6 transposes. Make no mistake, I'm not *recommending* this for black, I'm just pointing out a transposition. Black has to be really careful here, so I do wonder what he has in mind for club players.

I recalled 3...a6 as perhaps the original version; I see that Fine (1940s) and Euwe (1970s) attributed it to Janowski.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #18 - 05/18/21 at 01:03:25
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There is also a chapter on the Karlsbader Variante starting on page 63, which might include the Botvinnik plan. 

His chapter on 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 a6!? (page 76) caught my eye. If you like that for black, then why not on the third move? After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 a6!? I don't think white has anything better than 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Nf3, when 5...Nf6 transposes. Make no mistake, I'm not *recommending* this for black, I'm just pointing out a transposition. Black has to be really careful here, so I do wonder what he has in mind for club players.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #17 - 05/17/21 at 22:06:01
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By the way, a recent book in German by GM Michael Prusikin addresses the main line Exchange from a Black perspective.
https://www.schachversand.de/das-damengambit.html

A couple of things I'm a bit curious about:

--what is presented in the apparently 2 pages on how to effectively fight against the Botvinnik plan?
--what is it that he is calling the "soft" Carlsbad structure?
« Last Edit: 05/18/21 at 03:41:24 by kylemeister »  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #16 - 05/17/21 at 21:36:02
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It is a boon to black if he feels comfortable in the main line of the X variation. It can be reached by various mover orders (for example 1c4 e6 2Nc3 d5 3cxd) and remains flexible relative to Be7 systems (e.g. the Tartakover variation) and Nbd7 systems (e.g. the Cambridge Springs variation). My general assessment is that black's position is good but white's position is very good. In other words, white generally remains better. Still, is there a way for black to make it over the hump and get a completely satisfactory game in the exchange variation?

GM Max Illingworth analyzed the game Navara-Hansen for ChessPublishing (CP Sep 2016). It started:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 Be7 7. Bd3 Nbd7 8. Qc2 O-O 9. Nf3 Re8 10. O-O. Hansen played the main line 10...Nf8 and after 11h3! g6!? Max analyzes this extensively. 

However along the way Max briefly considers 10...g6, "to prepare ...Ne4 also deserves attention, given that I am recommending ... g6 in many positions." I think there is another CP analysis of this position, but I can't find the date. If black is going to play ...g6, then he has alternatives to the main Nf8-g6 or Nf8-e6 circuit. ...Ne4 and ...Ndf6 seems ideal, while ...Nh5 or ...Nb6 are also possible.

After 10...g6, 11h3 is as good as any, then ...Ne4 12Bf4 Ndf6 13Ne5. In my notes I have both 13...Nd6 and 13...Bd6, attributed to CP. I prefer 13...Bd6, then 14Rab1 Qe7 15a3 Bf5, where the natural 16b4 is well answered by 16...Nxc3.

White has other moves and plans. That may be the nature of his advantage. Yet perhaps black can hang in there regardless.

One problem with computer analysis is what I can meandering. You can see this in a simple fortress position (say with queen vs rook) where the engine is content to maintain its "plus" without making any progress. Sometimes the engine seems content to meander as white in some exchange variation positions, content to claim an advantage without making progress. In such a case white's claimed advantage is not real. On the other hand some human chess players will likewise meander, just waiting for a mistake!
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #15 - 11/10/20 at 17:23:42
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Heuristic wrote on 05/17/20 at 20:34:08:
It never made sense to me the exchange variation didn't become the main line


I find it to be a fun line to play with either color. As to its absolute merit, one may have to dig into the weeds in a number of variations to come to a conclusion. The lines where white doubles and isolates black's f pawns have little appeal to me, from either side. But yes, I could certainly see the exchange variation as being the "main line" of the Queen's Gambit Declined (QGD).

Alternatives to the Exchange variation are interesting too. However, I don't see them as being quite as threatening to Black.

I suspect that one reason why the exchange variation is not seen more often at higher levels is that the QGD it is reached through the move order: 1d4 Nf6 2c4 e6 3Nf3 d5. Answering the exchange variation is not so difficult when white has played an early Nf3 (though still not trivial).

If black plays the move order above to avoid the more dangerous lines in the exchange variation, he will probably answer 3Nc3 with 3...Bb4. The Nimzo seems to be fine for black. Still, knowing all lines will take some work.

So the dilemma for white is whether to play 3Nc3, allowing the Nimzo, or 3Nf3, which allows a variety of responses to include the QGD, but where the exchange variation is not so potent.

Black has move order issues also. If he goes for a Nimzo-Indian, he has to choose a line vs. 3Nf3. Each requires some preparation. 

If black does choose to play the QGD as his universal response, for example 1d4 d5 2c4 e6, then he does not have to learn the Nimzo, but he does have to find a line he likes in the exchange variation.
  
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