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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) How playable is the QGD Exchange for black? (Read 2506 times)
FreeRepublic
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #15 - 11/10/20 at 17:23:42
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Heuristic wrote on 05/17/20 at 20:34:08:
It never made sense to me the exchange variation didn't become the main line


I find it to be a fun line to play with either color. As to its absolute merit, one may have to dig into the weeds in a number of variations to come to a conclusion. The lines where white doubles and isolates black's f pawns have little appeal to me, from either side. But yes, I could certainly see the exchange variation as being the "main line" of the Queen's Gambit Declined (QGD).

Alternatives to the Exchange variation are interesting too. However, I don't see them as being quite as threatening to Black.

I suspect that one reason why the exchange variation is not seen more often at higher levels is that the QGD it is reached through the move order: 1d4 Nf6 2c4 e6 3Nf3 d5. Answering the exchange variation is not so difficult when white has played an early Nf3 (though still not trivial).

If black plays the move order above to avoid the more dangerous lines in the exchange variation, he will probably answer 3Nc3 with 3...Bb4. The Nimzo seems to be fine for black. Still, knowing all lines will take some work.

So the dilemma for white is whether to play 3Nc3, allowing the Nimzo, or 3Nf3, which allows a variety of responses to include the QGD, but where the exchange variation is not so potent.

Black has move order issues also. If he goes for a Nimzo-Indian, he has to choose a line vs. 3Nf3. Each requires some preparation.

If black does choose to play the QGD as his universal response, for example 1d4 d5 2c4 e6, then he does not have to learn the Nimzo, but he does have to find a line he likes in the exchange variation.
  
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MNb
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #14 - 10/18/20 at 06:38:27
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11...g6 12.Bh6 Bd6 13.Rab1 a5 14.a3 (perhaps better 14.Rfe1 immediately) Ne6 15.Rfe1 prevents ...Bf5, but b6 quite easily held the draw in Joachimsthaler-Ferlito, corr 2012. The same happened after 13...Ne6 14.b4 a5 in two more corr. games.
My admittedly superficial impression is that Black needs to play accurately for a pretty long time, but then will be able to equalize around move 20 at the latest.
  

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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #13 - 10/17/20 at 20:40:50
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Karolyi gives 12..Bd6 a la S. Volkov - A. Rychagov, Paleochora Open, 2012
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #12 - 10/17/20 at 19:55:13
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MNb wrote on 10/17/20 at 18:32:03:
And I'm not fully convinced for White after (somewhat ironically) 11...g6. Black's play can be improved in the games Khenkin-Asrian, Moscow 2001 and Kovaljov-Vavrak, Benidorm 2009.

I see that 12. Rab1 was played in those games, as it was in Navara-S. B. Hansen 2015, a game used by Illingworth.  Kryavkin's Attacking with g2-g4: The Modern Way to Get the Upper Hand in Chess gave 12. Bh6 as "!", portraying it as leading to an advantage for White.*  I don't know what (if anything) Illingworth had to say about 12. Bh6.  I also don't know what Károlyi had to say about it in The Exchange Queen's Gambit for Black, but I see that he addressed it.

*see p. 99
https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/9089.pdf
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #11 - 10/17/20 at 18:32:03
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FreeRepublic wrote on 10/17/20 at 17:53:58:
Also, you need to have an answer you like versus 9Nf3. I'm not fully convinced for black after 9Nf3 Re8 10 0-0 Nf8 11h3!

And I'm not fully convinced for White after (somewhat ironically) 11...g6. Black's play can be improved in the games Khenkin-Asrian, Moscow 2001 and Kovaljov-Vavrak, Benidorm 2009.

  

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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #10 - 10/17/20 at 17:53:58
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stockhausen wrote on 02/13/20 at 15:16:30:
In particular has anyone tried Illingworth's line 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 c6 6.e3 Be7 7.Bd3 Nbd7 8.Qc2 0-0 9.Nge2 Re8 10.0-0 Nf8 11.f3 g6 ?
Can this be used as the main response to 1.d4?


I think it looks OK. Also, you need to have an answer you like versus 9Nf3. I'm not fully convinced for black after 9Nf3 Re8 10 0-0 Nf8 11h3!

An option for black does well is to play 8...Nh5!? White can side-step that with 8Nge2 which will likely get you back to Illingworth's recommendation.

CP has had some excellent analysis following Petrosian's 3...Be7 4cxd exd. It's complicated, but I think Black does OK according to theory. In practice, you'd better know your theory! If you are willing to wade into the complexities of that line, it might provide the best opportunity to "play for all three results."

I don't know of any books that advocate 3...Be7. The venerable ECO is usually a good place to start. ChessPublishing's archived material is the best source to my knowledge.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #9 - 05/17/20 at 20:34:08
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It never made sense to me the exchange variation didn't become the main line after Kasparovs handling of it.

Here are two different ways of countering it by Ulf Andersson. Both failed

game 1 vs Ulf Anderssonhttps://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1070305

game 2: https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1020567
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #8 - 03/17/20 at 01:41:59
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Bibs wrote on 03/16/20 at 23:32:40:
It refers to the new series by Hammer, on chess24.
A ‘classical’ approach with black - 1.e4 e5, 1.d4 d5.
OCP - are you predicting the imminent demise of c24?!

(Non-disclaimer - I have no connection at all with any chess publisher - books, online, whatever.)

Happy chessing!

Thanks for the reference.

I don't know enough to make any concrete predictions like that. I didn't even know it was chess24. But I think my prediction was safe enough in probabilistic terms, over all chess content sites, if "some probability" is in the range 25% to 33%.

If both chess24 and I are still kicking in 10 years time, I will try to revisit my other prediction, that Hammer's series is not available there anymore.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #7 - 03/16/20 at 23:32:40
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It refers to the new series by Hammer, on chess24.
A ‘classical’ approach with black - 1.e4 e5, 1.d4 d5.
OCP - are you predicting the imminent demise of c24?!

(Non-disclaimer - I have no connection at all with any chess publisher - books, online, whatever.)

Happy chessing!
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #6 - 03/16/20 at 22:31:17
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kylemeister wrote on 03/16/20 at 04:43:29:
I see that in Jon Ludvig Hammer's new black repertoire product after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cd ed 5.Bg5 c6 6.e3 Be7 7.Bd3 Nbd7 8.Qc2 0-0 9.Nge2 Re8 10.0-0 Nf8 11.f3, he goes with one of the old book moves -- 11...Ng6 -- and refers to "a big new discovery."

I have no idea what product that refers to. Was it discussed already on chesspub?

It occurs to me that in 10 years, a reference like the one above will be the equivalent of a dead link on the web. Not only will the product not exist, with some likelihood neither will the platform. At least with a physical book, although no doubt out of print, it would show up on something like goodreads.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #5 - 03/16/20 at 04:43:29
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I see that in Jon Ludvig Hammer's new black repertoire product after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cd ed 5.Bg5 c6 6.e3 Be7 7.Bd3 Nbd7 8.Qc2 0-0 9.Nge2 Re8 10.0-0 Nf8 11.f3, he goes with one of the old book moves -- 11...Ng6 -- and refers to "a big new discovery."
« Last Edit: 03/16/20 at 16:36:12 by kylemeister »  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #4 - 02/15/20 at 17:07:03
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stockhausen wrote on 02/13/20 at 15:16:30:
In particular has anyone tried Illingworth's line 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 c6 6.e3 Be7 7.Bd3 Nbd7 8.Qc2 0-0 9.Nge2 Re8 10.0-0 Nf8 11.f3 g6 ?


Radjabov played this twice as Black in last year’s World Cup and scored 1.5 out of 2 in rapid games.

Here is the win: https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1972580

  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #3 - 02/14/20 at 13:27:07
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stockhausen wrote on 02/13/20 at 15:16:30:
Can this be used as the main response to 1.d4?


At a 2000 level, defending the QGD Exchange makes it too easy for White to get a good position and for Black to have limited chances.

The relatively better technical play of an IM or GM may be needed to make it work in practice.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #2 - 02/13/20 at 16:43:22
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stockhausen wrote on 02/13/20 at 15:16:30:
In particular has anyone tried Illingworth's line 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 c6 6.e3 Be7 7.Bd3 Nbd7 8.Qc2 0-0 9.Nge2 Re8 10.0-0 Nf8 11.f3 g6 ?
Can this be used as the main response to 1.d4?

Of note is that Illingworth also recommended 11...g6 in the line with Nf3/0-0/h3 (which, unlike against Nge2/0-0/f3, is an old book move).  That also appeared in Tibor Károlyi's The Exchange Queen's Gambit for Black.  Dmitry Kryavkin's Attacking with g2-g4: The Modern Way to Get the Upper Hand in Chess appears to claim an advantage for White there.

IsaVulpes wrote on 02/13/20 at 16:33:51:
There's also the Ntirlis treatment in his 1.d4 d5 book, where White seemingly has to find/know the plan of castling long, followed by Kc1-b1-a1 + b2-b4 (+Rb1?) to achieve anything, as he did here https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1924134 , but Black has some improvements along the path of course.

Such a minority attack with both players castled long puts me in mind of (yes) an old game, which I recalled from Test Your Positional Play by Bellin and Ponzetto.
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1060813
« Last Edit: 02/13/20 at 17:48:51 by kylemeister »  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #1 - 02/13/20 at 16:33:51
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There were two recent pretty well publicized games even in the old line that Carlsen "refuted" against Kramnik, with Black scoring 1.5/2, and never appearing to be in too much trouble
https://chess24.com/en/watch/live-tournaments/fide-womens-world-championship-202...
https://chess24.com/en/watch/live-tournaments/tata-steel-challengers-2020/8/1/4

Carlsen also played the Korley line at the World Blitz
https://chess24.com/en/watch/live-tournaments/world-blitz-championship-2019/3/1/...
And while the Engine yells +4 somewhere in the middle, his willingness to play it at all may or may not mean something (ok, he plays the Norwegian Rat in Blitz, so who knows)
-- Don't know if there's an actual name for it, I just call it "Korley line" based on this game https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1968792 , which he made a video about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQIh-NqZKHQ

There's also the Ntirlis treatment in his 1.d4 d5 book, where White seemingly has to find/know the plan of castling long, followed by Kc1-b1-a1 + b2-b4 (+Rb1?) to achieve anything, as he did here https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1924134 , but Black has some improvements along the path of course.

I don't know anything about the Illingworth line, but if he recommends it - I trust him as an author/analyst, so I have no doubts it's quite playable as well.

It's a major opening, so yes, it will always be "fine". If you're a sitting duck, and play the same variation every game, while the entries in the database pile up, at some point you're going to run into issues - but that's the case in any opening. As long as you jump between subvariations here or there, and aren't too concerned with playing a boring "no-play" line as in the l'Ami game, I see no issues with the QGD Exchange. If you're below 2200 or w/e, then "anything" works as a main response anyway, and certainly the QGD is rather on the "sound" than on the "bogus" end of the opening spectrum.

SuperGMs don't visit it much anymore, since there are even *fewer* issues in the Nimzo, but I mean.. that applies to pretty much any opening under the sun (aside from the Berlin, perhaps?), so it doesn't exactly disqualify the good old QGD.
  
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