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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How playable is the QGD Exchange for black? (Read 31928 times)
FreeRepublic
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #44 - 06/15/21 at 14:47:49
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On a light note, I miss the days when something like the following was close to the main line:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cd5 ed5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 Be7 7. Bd3 Nbd7 8. Qc2 O-O 9. Nf3 Re8 10. O-O Nf8 11. Rab1 (once the main line, since overtaken by 11h3) a5 12. a3 Ng6 13. b4 ab4 14. ab4 Bd6 15. b5 h6 16. Bf6 Qf6 17. e4 (looks dangerous) Nf4! 18. e5 Qe6! =

At one time this was a revelation to me, though perhaps I'll be informed that it was first played by Greco.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #43 - 06/15/21 at 14:18:43
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1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cd5 ed5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 Be7 7. Bd3 Nbd7 8. Qc2 O-O 9. Nge2 Re8 10. O-O Nf8 * 3,574 games

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cd5 ed5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 Be7 7. Bd3 Nbd7 8. Qc2 O-O 9. Nf3 Re8 10. O-O Nf8 * 7,858 games

For a total of 11,432 games in the line I described as the main line.

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cd5 ed5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 Be7 7. Bd3 Nbd7 8. Qc2 h6 9. Bh4 Nh5 10. Be7 Qe7 * 373 games in the Ntirlis line.

Numbers are from the Chess Assistant data base.

I have not accounted for all future transpositions. An example would be lines with Nf3, where Qc2 will be played later. Still, I think this gives a general impression of magnitudes, something that is important in having a sense of proportion. Proportion and ratios can be a great aid to rational analysis. Rational analysis has often been credited to ancient Greeks. In that vein, I'd like to introduce a ratio to this thread. Given the numbers above, main line games outnumber Ntirlis recommended games by more than 30 to 1.

It would be interesting to see similar numbers for known major minor lines, such as the Short variation and the Petrosian/Alatortsev variation. I expect both the Short and the Petrosian line will have considerably fewer games than the main line, and considerably more games than the Ntirlis line.

The position reached after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cd5 ed5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 Be7 7. Bd3 Nbd7 8. Qc2 h6 9. Bh4 Nh5 10. Be7 Qe7 was first reached in 1933, but there is little evidence that it, or the game Donner-Tröger of 1958, had great influence. This line began to take-off (in games played) around 2014 but has had a real surge since the publication of the Ntirlis book.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #42 - 06/15/21 at 12:18:36
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All right, I've been taken to task on this. I realize that a great many ideas have been tried over the years and decades. However my impression was that the main line proceeded as I stated, with ...Re8 and ...Nf8, etc. True or false?

ECO D (3) covers the exchange variation under D35 and D36, and also in portions of D31 (Petrosian variation). The Petrosian variation, ...Be7 before ...Nf6, gets 9 rows. D35 has 28 rows. D36 has 30 rows. The line that I described as the main line are rows 11 through 30 inclusive of D36. Perhaps one of our experts can tell me which row or footnote addresses the line advocated by Ntirlis.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #41 - 06/15/21 at 05:42:17
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1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Be7 6.e3 c6 7.Qc2 Nbd7 8.Nf3 h6 9.Bh4 Nh5 is Donner-Tröger, Chaumont Neuchate. This game is from 1958. That's relatively new indeed, like Arabic numerals are new compared to Roman ones.
  

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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #40 - 06/14/21 at 23:55:44
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Er, ...Nh5 ideas go way back, and that version with ...h6 appeared for instance in the first edition of ECO (1976).  A NIC Yearbook survey in 2015 addressed ...Nh5 with and without ...h6.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #39 - 06/14/21 at 23:16:04
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Ntirlis analyzes:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cd5 ed5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 Be7 7. Bd3 Nbd7 8. Qc2 h6 9. Bh4 Nh5 10. Be7 Qe7 in his book:  Playing 1.d4 d5: A Classical Repertoire (2017).
Some of this is covered in the sample available at Forward Chess.
Chess Publishing has also examined this line. I haven't gone through the variations yet, but the tenor seems positive.

...Nh5 ideas are new, compared to the old main line with ...0-0, ...Re8, ...Nf8. Mixing in ...h6, as Ntirlis does, is  a newer idea yet. I can see that he's done good work on this line.

I believe Ntirlis' repertoire looks at Orthodox lines with ...h6. I see no reason why one couldn't use his recommendations against the exchange variation and play another line, for example, the Tartakover variation if one so chooses.

From the table of contents, his book seems very complete, covering other important lines such as the Bf4 lines, the Catalan, and the London.

Forward chess eBooks play on PCs (presumably Macs) and on Android tablets.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #38 - 05/20/21 at 23:34:30
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/19/21 at 19:49:45:
Two Knights Caro-Kann, Sozin Sicilian, Grunfeld Defense, and I would have to look at the book again to give any more examples.

Thanks. Ah yes, the Two Knights Caro-Kann certainly - not that this helped Fischer much in the 1959 Candidates, where the Russians (even Keres!) happily chose the Caro-Kann against Fischer in anticipation of facing the Two Knights.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #37 - 05/19/21 at 19:49:45
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Two Knights Caro-Kann, Sozin Sicilian, Grunfeld Defense, and I would have to look at the book again to give any more examples.
  
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Paddy
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #36 - 05/19/21 at 19:30:33
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/19/21 at 17:50:40:
Paddy wrote on 05/19/21 at 17:24:39:
Fischer was greatly influenced by Lipnitsky's book Questions of Modern Chess Theory

I think Fischer was even more influenced by Boleslavski (1957) Izbrannye Partii.


One can perhaps detect the influence of this fine book (I have a copy of Jimmy Adams's English translation) in Fischer's use of the Ruy Lopez as White (I recall that Boleslavsky gets a mention in the notes to Fischer-Shocron in My 60 Memorable games) and the King's indian as Black, but beyond that? Can you be more precise? Smiley
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #35 - 05/19/21 at 17:50:40
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Paddy wrote on 05/19/21 at 17:24:39:
Fischer was greatly influenced by Lipnitsky's book Questions of Modern Chess Theory

I think Fischer was even more influenced by Boleslavski (1957) Izbrannye Partii.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #34 - 05/19/21 at 17:24:39
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FreeRepublic wrote on 05/19/21 at 13:10:34:
Paddy wrote on 05/18/21 at 22:56:49:
It almost certainly came as no surprise to Botvinnik, who will have noted that Petrosian had already played it against Taimanov in 1959 and Gligoric in 1961. He will also have noted that Fischer played it in his famous game against Bertok in the 1962 Stockholm Interzonal.


I was not familiar with the Bertok-Fischer game. I found it at Chessgames.com. I am surprised that Fischer played the QGD so often as black (28 games), having associated him with the King's Indian Defense.


Fischer included the Bertok game in My 60 Memorable Games - still well worth reading IMHO!

The evolution of Fischer's black repertoire is quite interesting. Against 1 e4 he experimented with 1...e5 for a short while in the early 60s. Very occasionally he used the Sicilian and there was one Pirc in the 1972 match with Spassky. But otherwise his choice rested overwhelmingly on the Sicilian - the Najdorf, when White allowed it, with one experimental 2...e6 game towards the end of the 1972 match with Spassky.

Fischer's response to 1 d4 was much more varied. He played the King's Indian throughout his career, but it is well known that he feared the Saemisch for a long time and sometimes chose something other than the KID (usually the Gruenfeld) if he suspected that his opponent wanted to play 5 f3.

In the mid- to late- fifties Fischer was greatly influenced by Lipnitsky's book Questions of Modern Chess Theory, from which he picked up the Ragozin (one of Fischer's worst-scoring openings).

In the early 1960s he seems to have gone through a sort of brief "classical phase", perhaps under the influence of Spassky [whom he admired, and not just for his smart dressing Smiley], so, at the same time as we see him trying 1 e4 e5 as Black, we also see some games of his with the Queen's Gambit Declined, mainly the Tartakower and the Semi-Tarrasch.

Roughly from the mid 1960s to 1972 we see more Nimzos, but also the odd Gruenfeld and Modern Benoni.

For his comeback match against Spassky in 1992 Fischer introduced the Queen's Gambit Accepted into his repertoire for the first time.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #33 - 05/19/21 at 16:17:27
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Lanark wrote on 05/19/21 at 11:02:16:
And he doesn't like 3.Nc3 a6 so much because of 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Qb3, for example 5...c6 (or 5...Nf6 6.Bg5 c6 7.e4) 6.e4 dxe4 7.Bc4 Qe7 8.a4 and White has some pressure.

I don't trust these engine lines at all. I've been looking at 5.Qb3 with e2-e4 all morning, the engine does some weird stuff. Like black plays ...O-O and then quickly trades queens (instead of just trading queens when the king is safe enough in the center). Or white lines up on b1-h7, black plays ...g7-g6 and ...O-O, and white answers O-O (instead of h2-h4! +/-). Or white plays e4-e5, black trades queens paired with ...f7-f6?? giving white a passed pawn right away. Anyway, at reasonable depths I didn't see any sensible line that gave white more advantage than Euwe - Alekhine.

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 a6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Qb3 Nf6 (seems better than 5...c6) 6.Bg5 c6 7.e4 dxe4 (engine preference, but 7...Be7 is certainly playable, += for sure but these are the lines that should be measured against the simple 5.Bf4) 8.Bc4 Qe7 9.a4 h6 10.Bxf6 (far from forced, and one of the 0.00 alternatives might actually be +-, e.g. 10.Bh4!?) 10...gxf6 11.Nge2 f5 12.f3 seems risky for black, again I don't trust the engine's 0.00.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #32 - 05/19/21 at 16:00:26
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FreeRepublic wrote on 05/19/21 at 13:10:34:
I was not familiar with the Bertok-Fischer game. I found it at Chessgames.com. I am surprised that Fischer played the QGD so often as black (28 games), having associated him with the King's Indian Defense.

Another instance which stuck in my memory, from the same year as the Bertok game, was against a Polish IM named Sliwa.  That's because I remember Larry Evans fielding a question from someone who had disagreed with a friend about whether after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cd ed 5. Bg5 c6 6. Qc2 Na6 7. e3 Nc7 8. Bd3 Be7 it would have been good for White to go for 9. Bxf6 Bxf6 10. Bxh7 g6 11. Bxg6 fg 12. Qxg6+.  (Evans:  "12...K-K2! completely beats back the so-called 'attack.'  The threat of ...R-KN1 does not give White time to castle or develop his KN.  Your friend is right.  Despite 3 pawns for his piece, White has absolutely no winning chances and must, in fact, fight hard for a draw.  Black's king is safe in the center, and his extra piece should ultimately decide the issue.") 
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #31 - 05/19/21 at 14:19:34
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/18/21 at 20:51:53:
Rizzitano (2007) Chess Explained: The Queen's Gambit Declined, covers the Alatortsev in chapter one.


If you have a tablet (I do not). You can get this as a playable eBook for the same price as the kindle book:

http://gambitbooks.com/books/Chess_Explained_the_Queen's_Gambit_Declined.html

http://gambitbooks.com/webapp/ChessStudio.html

This applies to many Gambit publications.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #30 - 05/19/21 at 13:10:34
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Paddy wrote on 05/18/21 at 22:56:49:
It almost certainly came as no surprise to Botvinnik, who will have noted that Petrosian had already played it against Taimanov in 1959 and Gligoric in 1961. He will also have noted that Fischer played it in his famous game against Bertok in the 1962 Stockholm Interzonal.


I was not familiar with the Bertok-Fischer game. I found it at Chessgames.com. I am surprised that Fischer played the QGD so often as black (28 games), having associated him with the King's Indian Defense.
  
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