Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How playable is the QGD Exchange for black? (Read 9663 times)
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 939
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #36 - 05/19/21 at 19:30:33
Post Tools
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/19/21 at 17:50:40:
Paddy wrote on 05/19/21 at 17:24:39:
Fischer was greatly influenced by Lipnitsky's book Questions of Modern Chess Theory

I think Fischer was even more influenced by Boleslavski (1957) Izbrannye Partii.


One can perhaps detect the influence of this fine book (I have a copy of Jimmy Adams's English translation) in Fischer's use of the Ruy Lopez as White (I recall that Boleslavsky gets a mention in the notes to Fischer-Shocron in My 60 Memorable games) and the King's indian as Black, but beyond that? Can you be more precise? Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 1287
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #35 - 05/19/21 at 17:50:40
Post Tools
Paddy wrote on 05/19/21 at 17:24:39:
Fischer was greatly influenced by Lipnitsky's book Questions of Modern Chess Theory

I think Fischer was even more influenced by Boleslavski (1957) Izbrannye Partii.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 939
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #34 - 05/19/21 at 17:24:39
Post Tools
FreeRepublic wrote on 05/19/21 at 13:10:34:
Paddy wrote on 05/18/21 at 22:56:49:
It almost certainly came as no surprise to Botvinnik, who will have noted that Petrosian had already played it against Taimanov in 1959 and Gligoric in 1961. He will also have noted that Fischer played it in his famous game against Bertok in the 1962 Stockholm Interzonal.


I was not familiar with the Bertok-Fischer game. I found it at Chessgames.com. I am surprised that Fischer played the QGD so often as black (28 games), having associated him with the King's Indian Defense.


Fischer included the Bertok game in My 60 Memorable Games - still well worth reading IMHO!

The evolution of Fischer's black repertoire is quite interesting. Against 1 e4 he experimented with 1...e5 for a short while in the early 60s. Very occasionally he used the Sicilian and there was one Pirc in the 1972 match with Spassky. But otherwise his choice rested overwhelmingly on the Sicilian - the Najdorf, when White allowed it, with one experimental 2...e6 game towards the end of the 1972 match with Spassky.

Fischer's response to 1 d4 was much more varied. He played the King's Indian throughout his career, but it is well known that he feared the Saemisch for a long time and sometimes chose something other than the KID (usually the Gruenfeld) if he suspected that his opponent wanted to play 5 f3.

In the mid- to late- fifties Fischer was greatly influenced by Lipnitsky's book Questions of Modern Chess Theory, from which he picked up the Ragozin (one of Fischer's worst-scoring openings).

In the early 1960s he seems to have gone through a sort of brief "classical phase", perhaps under the influence of Spassky [whom he admired, and not just for his smart dressing Smiley], so, at the same time as we see him trying 1 e4 e5 as Black, we also see some games of his with the Queen's Gambit Declined, mainly the Tartakower and the Semi-Tarrasch.

Roughly from the mid 1960s to 1972 we see more Nimzos, but also the odd Gruenfeld and Modern Benoni.

For his comeback match against Spassky in 1992 Fischer introduced the Queen's Gambit Accepted into his repertoire for the first time.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 1287
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #33 - 05/19/21 at 16:17:27
Post Tools
Lanark wrote on 05/19/21 at 11:02:16:
And he doesn't like 3.Nc3 a6 so much because of 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Qb3, for example 5...c6 (or 5...Nf6 6.Bg5 c6 7.e4) 6.e4 dxe4 7.Bc4 Qe7 8.a4 and White has some pressure.

I don't trust these engine lines at all. I've been looking at 5.Qb3 with e2-e4 all morning, the engine does some weird stuff. Like black plays ...O-O and then quickly trades queens (instead of just trading queens when the king is safe enough in the center). Or white lines up on b1-h7, black plays ...g7-g6 and ...O-O, and white answers O-O (instead of h2-h4! +/-). Or white plays e4-e5, black trades queens paired with ...f7-f6?? giving white a passed pawn right away. Anyway, at reasonable depths I didn't see any sensible line that gave white more advantage than Euwe - Alekhine.

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 a6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Qb3 Nf6 (seems better than 5...c6) 6.Bg5 c6 7.e4 dxe4 (engine preference, but 7...Be7 is certainly playable, += for sure but these are the lines that should be measured against the simple 5.Bf4) 8.Bc4 Qe7 9.a4 h6 10.Bxf6 (far from forced, and one of the 0.00 alternatives might actually be +-, e.g. 10.Bh4!?) 10...gxf6 11.Nge2 f5 12.f3 seems risky for black, again I don't trust the engine's 0.00.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4715
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #32 - 05/19/21 at 16:00:26
Post Tools
FreeRepublic wrote on 05/19/21 at 13:10:34:
I was not familiar with the Bertok-Fischer game. I found it at Chessgames.com. I am surprised that Fischer played the QGD so often as black (28 games), having associated him with the King's Indian Defense.

Another instance which stuck in my memory, from the same year as the Bertok game, was against a Polish IM named Sliwa.  That's because I remember Larry Evans fielding a question from someone who had disagreed with a friend about whether after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cd ed 5. Bg5 c6 6. Qc2 Na6 7. e3 Nc7 8. Bd3 Be7 it would have been good for White to go for 9. Bxf6 Bxf6 10. Bxh7 g6 11. Bxg6 fg 12. Qxg6+.  (Evans:  "12...K-K2! completely beats back the so-called 'attack.'  The threat of ...R-KN1 does not give White time to castle or develop his KN.  Your friend is right.  Despite 3 pawns for his piece, White has absolutely no winning chances and must, in fact, fight hard for a draw.  Black's king is safe in the center, and his extra piece should ultimately decide the issue.") 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 293
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #31 - 05/19/21 at 14:19:34
Post Tools
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/18/21 at 20:51:53:
Rizzitano (2007) Chess Explained: The Queen's Gambit Declined, covers the Alatortsev in chapter one.


If you have a tablet (I do not). You can get this as a playable eBook for the same price as the kindle book:

http://gambitbooks.com/books/Chess_Explained_the_Queen's_Gambit_Declined.html

http://gambitbooks.com/webapp/ChessStudio.html

This applies to many Gambit publications.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 293
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #30 - 05/19/21 at 13:10:34
Post Tools
Paddy wrote on 05/18/21 at 22:56:49:
It almost certainly came as no surprise to Botvinnik, who will have noted that Petrosian had already played it against Taimanov in 1959 and Gligoric in 1961. He will also have noted that Fischer played it in his famous game against Bertok in the 1962 Stockholm Interzonal.


I was not familiar with the Bertok-Fischer game. I found it at Chessgames.com. I am surprised that Fischer played the QGD so often as black (28 games), having associated him with the King's Indian Defense.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 293
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #29 - 05/19/21 at 12:56:59
Post Tools
FreeRepublic wrote on 05/17/21 at 21:36:02:
One problem with computer analysis is what I can meandering.


This makes more sense with the intended word "call."

One problem with computer analysis is what I call meandering.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 293
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #28 - 05/19/21 at 12:49:35
Post Tools
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/18/21 at 20:51:53:
Rizzitano (2007) Chess Explained: The Queen's Gambit Declined, covers the Alatortsev in chapter one. If you "Look inside" the kindle sample on amazon.com, you can see all of chapter one.


Indeed. Game 2 Onishchuk-Lputian covers a critical line: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Be7!? 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bf4 c6!? 6. e3!? Bf5 7. g4 Be6 8. h4 Nd7 9. h5 Nh6! 10. Be2 Nb6. I haven't reviewed all his analysis yet.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Lanark
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 49
Joined: 07/24/13
Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #27 - 05/19/21 at 11:02:16
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 05/17/21 at 22:06:01:
By the way, a recent book in German by GM Michael Prusikin addresses the main line Exchange from a Black perspective.
https://www.schachversand.de/das-damengambit.html

A couple of things I'm a bit curious about:

--what is presented in the apparently 2 pages on how to effectively fight against the Botvinnik plan?
--what is it that he is calling the "soft" Carlsbad structure?


I shouldn't give away too much, but against 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 c6 6.Qc2 h6 7.Bh4 Be7 8.e3 0-0 9.Bd3 Re8 10.Sge2 ("Botvinnik plan") Prusikin discusses 10...Nbd7 11.f3 b5.
The "soft" Carlsbad structure is defined by the pawns a7-b6-c6-d5.

And he doesn't like 3.Nc3 a6 so much because of 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Qb3, for example 5...c6 (or 5...Nf6 6.Bg5 c6 7.e4) 6.e4 dxe4 7.Bc4 Qe7 8.a4 and White has some pressure.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10628
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #26 - 05/19/21 at 06:26:52
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 05/18/21 at 01:35:12:
I recalled 3...a6 as perhaps the original version; I see that Fine (1940s) and Euwe (1970s) attributed it to Janowski.

So did Taimanov in 1980.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 1287
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #25 - 05/18/21 at 23:13:47
Post Tools
When I wrote "I'm not sure why Dreev did that", I wasn't talking about why he called it the Petrosian Variation. I was talking about why he bothered to analyze it, since his other variation with 5.Bf4 covers both move orders. Sorry if I stirred up a hornet's nest. I only mentioned Petrosian Variation since Dreev's book doesn't turn up in a duckduckgo search for Alatortsev Variation.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 939
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #24 - 05/18/21 at 22:56:49
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 05/18/21 at 21:10:07:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/18/21 at 20:51:53:
Dreev (2016) Bf4 in the Queen's Gambit and the Exchange Slav calls this the Petrosian Variation

"A refinement attributed to Petrosian, but actually played by Charousek in the 'nineties - and probably dating back even farther." -- Fischer in My 60 Memorable Games


Botvinnik vs Alatortsev, Leningrad 1934, began 1 d4 e6 2 c4 d5 3 Nf3 Be7, which might account for the common attribution.

Fischer was correct: 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Be7 goes back to the 19th century, e.g. it was played a few times by Alapin. It was played only sporadically after that, but it began to be used more often in the 1950s, following the hugely influential game Botvinnik-Keres, USSR Championship 1952, where Black was rolled over by the development scheme with Bd3, Nge2, 0-0 and eventually f3 and e4.

When Petrosian played Botvinnik for the world championship in 1963, he wanted to avoid this scheme, so he played 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Be7 in three games. Suetin, who was part of Petrosian's "team", described 3...Be7 as a "cunning move". That's the simple story of how Petrosian's name became associated with 3...Be7.

Botvinnik himself wrote: "The point of it is that Black tries to provoke Nf3 before the development of the bishop at g5."

It almost certainly came as no surprise to Botvinnik, who will have noted that Petrosian had already played it against Taimanov in 1959 and Gligoric in 1961. He will also have noted that Fischer played it in his famous game against Bertok in the 1962 Stockholm Interzonal.

So 3..Be7 is not really a system, but a move order finesse to avoid the Carlsbad with Nge2. White must either acquiesce and play an early Nf3, leading to what is generally regarded as a less promising version of the Carlsbad (although Keith Arkell might disagree!), ot else play the independent scheme that Botvinnik had prepared: 4 cxd5 exd5 5 Bf4, leaving the knight on g1 for a while.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4715
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #23 - 05/18/21 at 21:10:07
Post Tools
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/18/21 at 20:51:53:
Dreev (2016) Bf4 in the Queen's Gambit and the Exchange Slav calls this the Petrosian Variation

"A refinement attributed to Petrosian, but actually played by Charousek in the 'nineties - and probably dating back even farther." -- Fischer in My 60 Memorable Games
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 1287
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #22 - 05/18/21 at 20:51:53
Post Tools
Rizzitano (2007) Chess Explained: The Queen's Gambit Declined, covers the Alatortsev in chapter one. If you "Look inside" the kindle sample on amazon.com, you can see all of chapter one.
https://www.amazon.com/Chess-Explained-Queens-Gambit-Declined-ebook/dp/B00H8Q5JS...

Dreev (2016) Bf4 in the Queen's Gambit and the Exchange Slav calls this the Petrosian Variation and gives 58 pages.
https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/7607.pdf

Actually I'm not sure why Dreev did that. He doesn't really explain it in the preface. 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 4.Nf3 (instead of 4.cxd5 in his part two) when black doesn't have anything better than 4...Nf6 transposing to his part three (5.Bf4). Maybe he just wanted to cover some interesting chess in a book on the Queen's Gambit.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo