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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How playable is the QGD Exchange for black? (Read 8888 times)
an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #50 - 06/15/21 at 19:54:41
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FreeRepublic wrote on 06/15/21 at 17:30:11:
Every nuance counts, for example 9Bf4 vs 9Bh4, kingside castling versus queenside castling. All this must be examined.

Anybody who does sufficient independent work on a reasonable-looking defense is going to get good results with black. Even slightly dodgy openings can be playable if white is not preparing specifically against you. And this black setup looks quite plausible, not even in the dodgy realm. But it's no bed of roses.
  1. I bet two of the options (Bf4 or Bh4 with Q-side castling) are *at least* slightly better for white. The basic plan is g2-g4-g5 and both the bNh5 and the bPh6 help that along.
  2. If your opponent's name is Schandorff or Moskalenko or the like (Gligoric and Uhlmann are no longer with us), you can expect to suffer.
  3. Just because an engine can defend black's position and claims equality doesn't mean a human can accomplish the task in a practical game.

On the other hand, all black defenses require a certain amount of experience before one understands them. Experience equals losses, so don't dump an opening quickly just because of some early setbacks. If your independent work shows it's objectively okay, keep doing the work and gaining the required experience. Only if the results don't improve is it time to reevaluate the opening choice.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #49 - 06/15/21 at 17:30:11
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AOC makes many good points. I made a response, and now it's lost! So briefly.

Ntrilis' line can only be found in footnotes, demonstrating that it was minor. It is a newly recommended line that has grown greatly in popularity since around 2014, especially since 2017, so I hold that is relatively new regardless of the date of first use.

It's ultimate merit has not been determined, but it's certainly worth a look. Every nuance counts, for example 9Bf4 vs 9Bh4, kingside castling versus queenside castling. All this must be examined. Some of this can be found in the sample provided at Forward chess. ChessPublishing has also taken a look.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #48 - 06/15/21 at 16:47:01
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FreeRepublic wrote on 06/15/21 at 12:18:36:
All right, I've been taken to task on this. I realize that a great many ideas have been tried over the years and decades. However my impression was that the main line proceeded as I stated, with ...Re8 and ...Nf8, etc. True or false?

Correct according to GM Schandorff, 2012 and GM Moskalenko, 2019. It still doesn't mean that other lines are new.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 06/15/21 at 15:33:31:
Now the really interesting question is whether Ntirlis has managed to improve on the earlier theory, or simply ignored it.

Exactly.

GM Moskalenko recommends 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 c6 6.e3 (or Qc2) Be7 7.Bd3 Nbd7 8.Qc2 Nh5 9.Bxe7 Qxe7 10.O-O-O but doesn't look at 8...h6 9.Bh4 Nh5 10.Bxe7 Qxe7 11.O-O-O.(btw 11.Nge2 Ndf6 12.O-O-O is Lilienthal-Thomas, Hasting 1933 .....)
Given statistics Black rather should be well prepared. It should be interesting to find out whether ....h6 is a pro or a con for Black.
  

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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #47 - 06/15/21 at 16:40:03
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 06/15/21 at 15:33:31:
I don't have ECO D 3rd edition. In the 1st and 2nd editions it is D36 after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 c6 6.Qc2 Be7 7.e3 Nbd7 8.Bd3 and now 1st edition line 6 note 23, 2nd edition line 4 note 15.

The 4th edition (2004) also had 8...h6 9. Bh4 (no mention of 9. Bf4) Nh5 in a note, with 10. Bxe7 Qxe7 11. Nge2 Nb6 12. 0-0-0 (12. 0-0 was said to lead to equality) leading to += in Sorin-Hoffman, Argentina (ch) 1999 and Malaniuk-Burmakin, Moscow 1995.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #46 - 06/15/21 at 15:51:46
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FreeRepublic wrote on 06/15/21 at 14:47:49:
I miss the days when something like the following was close to the main line

I'm not sure the idea of a "main line" in the QGD Exchange Variation is helpful. Give Karpov the white pieces and there will be a new main line tomorrow. When Karpov made Kasparov give up the Tarrasch Defense, it wasn't by following previous theory. The same story here with Nf3 and h2-h3, it was just a random setup taken up by Karpov to avoid theory and torture black positionally. There are plenty of ways for white to be annoying in this opening, if white doesn't play the "main line" it is hardly a relief for black.

FreeRepublic wrote on 06/15/21 at 14:47:49:
... perhaps I'll be informed that it was first played by Greco.

Steinitz invented the minority attack in the 1890's, and Gunsberg for example said in the Hastings 1895 tournament book that it was "incorrect", so I think you are safe on this one.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #45 - 06/15/21 at 15:33:31
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FreeRepublic wrote on 06/15/21 at 14:18:43:
The position reached after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cd5 ed5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 Be7 7. Bd3 Nbd7 8. Qc2 h6 9. Bh4 Nh5 10. Be7 Qe7 was first reached in 1933, but there is little evidence that it, or the game Donner-Tröger of 1958, had great influence. This line began to take-off (in games played) around 2014 but has had a real surge since the publication of the Ntirlis book.

The evidence of influence is there, it is just negative evidence: It had been tried, but did not become popular. The question is why not? This requires detective work. Now the really interesting question is whether Ntirlis has managed to improve on the earlier theory, or simply ignored it. This requires further detective work. That it experienced a surge after the Ntirlis book is totally understandable, expected even. As to whether this popularity will remain, only time will tell. This final point is related to the previous detective work, or lack of it. Caveat: I don't have Ntirlis's book.

I don't have ECO D 3rd edition. In the 1st and 2nd editions it is D36 after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 c6 6.Qc2 Be7 7.e3 Nbd7 8.Bd3 and now 1st edition line 6 note 23, 2nd edition line 4 note 15.

Both give Uhlmann - Müller, DDR (ch) 1974 (sic) as +/-, see Informator 19/505. The 1st edition (but not the 2nd) gives Gligoric - Estimo, Manila 1968 as +/-. In both these games, the stronger player won. The 1st edition also quotes a game Taimanov - Arhangelski, SSSR 1962, deviating from Gligoric - Estimo with 11...Nf8 and reaching +=. We can look at this "theory" in different ways. (a) The weaker players ignorantly played an inferior line and were thematically punished. (b) The weaker players played a good line; because they lost theory unjustly rejected the line. (c) Some intermediate conclusion is correct.

[Event "DDR-ch 24th"]
[Site "Stralsund"]
[Date "1975.??.??"]
[Round "15"]
[White "Uhlmann, Wolfgang"]
[Black "Mueller, Klaus Uwe"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D53"]
[EventDate "1975.02.02"]
[PlyCount "59"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1999.11.16"]
[WhiteTeamCountry "FRA"]
[BlackTeamCountry "GER"]

1.c4 e6 2.Nc3 d5 3.d4 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Be7 6.e3 c6 7.Bd3 Nbd7 8.Qc2
h6 9.Bf4 a6 10.Nf3 O-O 11.g4 c5 12.g5 hxg5 13.Bxg5 cxd4 14.exd4 Ng4 15.h4
Re8 16.O-O-O Ndf6 17.Ne5 Be6 18.Rdg1 Rc8 19.Bxf6 Nxf6 20.h5 Ne4 21.h6 Bg5+
22.Kb1 g6 23.f3 Nd2+ 24.Ka1 Qf6 25.f4 Qxf4 26.Bxg6 Kf8 27.Bxf7 Bxf7 28.
Ng6+ Bxg6 29.Qxg6 Bf6 30.Nxd5 1-0

[Event "Manila Meralco"]
[Site "Manila"]
[Date "1968.??.??"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Gligoric, Svetozar"]
[Black "Estimo, Nilo"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D36"]
[EventDate "1968.??.??"]
[PlyCount "139"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1999.07.01"]
[WhiteTeamCountry "ENG"]
[BlackTeamCountry "NED"]

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Nbd7 6.e3 c6 7.Bd3 Be7 8.Qc2
h6 9.Bh4 Nh5 10.Bxe7 Qxe7 11.O-O-O Nhf6 12.Nf3 a5 13.Kb1 Qd6 14.h3 Nb6 15.
Ne5 Nfd7 16.f4 Qe7 17.g4 Nxe5 18.dxe5 Bd7 19.Qg2 a4 20.a3 Nc8 21.Rc1 b5
22.Na2 Nb6 23.Nb4 Rc8 24.Rhd1 O-O 25.Rc3 Rfd8 26.Bf5 Nc4 27.Bxd7 Rxd7 28.
Rcd3 f6 29.exf6 Qxf6 30.g5 hxg5 31.fxg5 Qg6 32.Nc2 Re7 33.Ka2 Rce8 34.h4
Nxe3 35.Nxe3 Rxe3 36.Rxe3 Rxe3 37.Rf1 d4 38.Qf2 Qe6+ 39.Ka1 d3 40.g6 Qe8
41.Rd1 Re5 42.Qg3 Qe6 43.Kb1 Rf5 44.h5 Qc4 45.Qxd3 Qxd3+ 46.Rxd3 Rd5 47.
Rxd5 cxd5 48.Kc2 Kf8 49.Kd3 Ke7 50.Kd4 Kf6 51.Kxd5 Kg5 52.Kc5 Kxh5 53.Kxb5
Kxg6 54.Kxa4 Kf5 55.Kb3 g5 56.Kc3 g4 57.Kd3 Kf4 58.a4 Kf3 59.a5 g3 60.a6
g2 61.a7 g1=Q 62.a8=Q+ Kf4 63.Qe4+ Kg5 64.Qe3+ Qxe3+ 65.Kxe3 Kf5 66.Kd4
Ke6 67.Kc5 Kd7 68.Kb6 Kc8 69.b4 Kb8 70.b5 1-0
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #44 - 06/15/21 at 14:47:49
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On a light note, I miss the days when something like the following was close to the main line:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cd5 ed5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 Be7 7. Bd3 Nbd7 8. Qc2 O-O 9. Nf3 Re8 10. O-O Nf8 11. Rab1 (once the main line, since overtaken by 11h3) a5 12. a3 Ng6 13. b4 ab4 14. ab4 Bd6 15. b5 h6 16. Bf6 Qf6 17. e4 (looks dangerous) Nf4! 18. e5 Qe6! =

At one time this was a revelation to me, though perhaps I'll be informed that it was first played by Greco.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #43 - 06/15/21 at 14:18:43
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1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cd5 ed5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 Be7 7. Bd3 Nbd7 8. Qc2 O-O 9. Nge2 Re8 10. O-O Nf8 * 3,574 games

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cd5 ed5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 Be7 7. Bd3 Nbd7 8. Qc2 O-O 9. Nf3 Re8 10. O-O Nf8 * 7,858 games

For a total of 11,432 games in the line I described as the main line.

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cd5 ed5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 Be7 7. Bd3 Nbd7 8. Qc2 h6 9. Bh4 Nh5 10. Be7 Qe7 * 373 games in the Ntirlis line.

Numbers are from the Chess Assistant data base.

I have not accounted for all future transpositions. An example would be lines with Nf3, where Qc2 will be played later. Still, I think this gives a general impression of magnitudes, something that is important in having a sense of proportion. Proportion and ratios can be a great aid to rational analysis. Rational analysis has often been credited to ancient Greeks. In that vein, I'd like to introduce a ratio to this thread. Given the numbers above, main line games outnumber Ntirlis recommended games by more than 30 to 1.

It would be interesting to see similar numbers for known major minor lines, such as the Short variation and the Petrosian/Alatortsev variation. I expect both the Short and the Petrosian line will have considerably fewer games than the main line, and considerably more games than the Ntirlis line.

The position reached after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cd5 ed5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 Be7 7. Bd3 Nbd7 8. Qc2 h6 9. Bh4 Nh5 10. Be7 Qe7 was first reached in 1933, but there is little evidence that it, or the game Donner-Tröger of 1958, had great influence. This line began to take-off (in games played) around 2014 but has had a real surge since the publication of the Ntirlis book.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #42 - 06/15/21 at 12:18:36
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All right, I've been taken to task on this. I realize that a great many ideas have been tried over the years and decades. However my impression was that the main line proceeded as I stated, with ...Re8 and ...Nf8, etc. True or false?

ECO D (3) covers the exchange variation under D35 and D36, and also in portions of D31 (Petrosian variation). The Petrosian variation, ...Be7 before ...Nf6, gets 9 rows. D35 has 28 rows. D36 has 30 rows. The line that I described as the main line are rows 11 through 30 inclusive of D36. Perhaps one of our experts can tell me which row or footnote addresses the line advocated by Ntirlis.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #41 - 06/15/21 at 05:42:17
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1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Be7 6.e3 c6 7.Qc2 Nbd7 8.Nf3 h6 9.Bh4 Nh5 is Donner-Tröger, Chaumont Neuchate. This game is from 1958. That's relatively new indeed, like Arabic numerals are new compared to Roman ones.
  

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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #40 - 06/14/21 at 23:55:44
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Er, ...Nh5 ideas go way back, and that version with ...h6 appeared for instance in the first edition of ECO (1976).  A NIC Yearbook survey in 2015 addressed ...Nh5 with and without ...h6.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #39 - 06/14/21 at 23:16:04
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Ntirlis analyzes:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cd5 ed5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 Be7 7. Bd3 Nbd7 8. Qc2 h6 9. Bh4 Nh5 10. Be7 Qe7 in his book:  Playing 1.d4 d5: A Classical Repertoire (2017).
Some of this is covered in the sample available at Forward Chess.
Chess Publishing has also examined this line. I haven't gone through the variations yet, but the tenor seems positive.

...Nh5 ideas are new, compared to the old main line with ...0-0, ...Re8, ...Nf8. Mixing in ...h6, as Ntirlis does, is  a newer idea yet. I can see that he's done good work on this line.

I believe Ntirlis' repertoire looks at Orthodox lines with ...h6. I see no reason why one couldn't use his recommendations against the exchange variation and play another line, for example, the Tartakover variation if one so chooses.

From the table of contents, his book seems very complete, covering other important lines such as the Bf4 lines, the Catalan, and the London.

Forward chess eBooks play on PCs (presumably Macs) and on Android tablets.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #38 - 05/20/21 at 23:34:30
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/19/21 at 19:49:45:
Two Knights Caro-Kann, Sozin Sicilian, Grunfeld Defense, and I would have to look at the book again to give any more examples.

Thanks. Ah yes, the Two Knights Caro-Kann certainly - not that this helped Fischer much in the 1959 Candidates, where the Russians (even Keres!) happily chose the Caro-Kann against Fischer in anticipation of facing the Two Knights.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #37 - 05/19/21 at 19:49:45
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Two Knights Caro-Kann, Sozin Sicilian, Grunfeld Defense, and I would have to look at the book again to give any more examples.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #36 - 05/19/21 at 19:30:33
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/19/21 at 17:50:40:
Paddy wrote on 05/19/21 at 17:24:39:
Fischer was greatly influenced by Lipnitsky's book Questions of Modern Chess Theory

I think Fischer was even more influenced by Boleslavski (1957) Izbrannye Partii.


One can perhaps detect the influence of this fine book (I have a copy of Jimmy Adams's English translation) in Fischer's use of the Ruy Lopez as White (I recall that Boleslavsky gets a mention in the notes to Fischer-Shocron in My 60 Memorable games) and the King's indian as Black, but beyond that? Can you be more precise? Smiley
  
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