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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How playable is the QGD Exchange for black? (Read 31541 times)
Nernstian59
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #89 - 05/06/22 at 19:06:46
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Nernstian59 wrote on 03/16/22 at 23:32:43:
The page count for the English volume is higher, possibly due the use of a single column format.  The German edition used a double column layout.

Once I got the actual book, I saw I erred in inferring from the sample pages that Countering the Queen's Gambit had a single column format.  Only parts of a few pages are laid out in this manner.  It looks like the higher page count in this English translation is mainly due to New in Chess adding more diagrams.  For example, the chapter on 4.Nf3 a6 has 14 diagrams in the original German edition.  There's nearly twice as many (27) in Countering the Queen's Gambit

One other difference between the two versions:  Prusikin refers to 1.Nc3 as "Der Linksspringer" in Das Damengambit since he thought it was a clever name.  In Countering the Queen's Gambit, it's called the Dunst Opening.
« Last Edit: 05/07/22 at 00:03:57 by Nernstian59 »  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #88 - 04/12/22 at 20:15:04
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GM Tan gives the following sequence in ChessPublishing December 2021:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cd5 ed5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 h6 7. Bh4 Be7 8. Bd3 O-O 9. Bg3!? Re8 10. Nf3 Nh5 11. Be5! Nd7 12. O-O Nhf6 13. Rc1 Ne5 14. Ne5 Bd6 15. f4 Be6 16. Kh1

Here's another move order to the same position:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cd5 ed5 5. Bg5 Be7 6. e3 O-O 7. Bd3 Re8 8. Nf3 h6 9. Bh4 c6 10. Bg3! Nh5 11. Be5 Nd7 12. O-O Nhf6!? 13. Rc1 Ne5 14. Ne5 Bd6 15. f4 Be6 16. Kh1

GM Tan states, "I believe White has some decent practical chances in this structure."

I have no disagreement there, though black could try 16...c5 17Qf3 and now 17...cxd or 17...a6.

However, I suggest that black vary with 13...Bb4. Now White can play 14h3 to retreat the bishop, forcing black's hand to take. Here are some lines that suggest dynamic equality:

13. Rc1 Bb4 14. h3 Ne5 15. Ne5 c5 16. f4 cd4 17. ed4 Be6 18. Qf3 Qb6
and
13. Rc1 Bb4 14. h3 Ne5 15. Ne5 c5 16. f4 cd4 17. ed4 Ba5 18. a3 Bb6 19. Bb1 Bd7 20. Qd3 and now 20...Bc6 or the seemingly suicidal 20...Rc8 inviting the piece sacrifice 21.Nd5!?
  
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Nernstian59
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #87 - 03/18/22 at 19:57:03
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RoleyPoley wrote on 03/17/22 at 12:06:22:
Thanks for this. I'm interested to see how good it is. I don't have much experience of the QGD, and feel I should learn more about it.

You're welcome.  As you probably noticed from the Table of Contents shown in the sample pages, nearly the first third of the book covers typical pawn structures and ideas, which should be helpful in learning more about the QGD.  Keep in mind that the book offers a repertoire for Black with the Tartakower variation as the recommendation for meeting 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5.  Thus, there's no coverage of the Orthodox or Lasker variations.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #86 - 03/17/22 at 12:06:22
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Nernstian59 wrote on 03/16/22 at 23:32:43:
"Countering the Queen's Gambit" by Prusikin (see my post #83) was just released by New in Chess.  A quick comparison of the earlier German edition to the sample pages given for this English version suggests the latter is a straight translation.  The page count for the English volume is higher, possibly due the use of a single column format.  The German edition used a double column layout.

The only addition in the English version that I've found so far is Prusikin's statement in his Foreword that he used MegaBase 2021, ChessBase's Correspondence Database, and Stockfish 13 for reference and analysis.  Interestingly, a few paragraphs before this, Prusikin mentions that the eponymous Netflix series was his inspiration for writing a book on the Queen's Gambit.


Thanks for this. I'm interested to see how good it is. I don't have much experience of the QGD, and feel I should learn more about it. I've also got a daughter who is interested in learning to play chess so I might pick this up to use along with Emms' book on e4/e5 fore both of us.

Not surprised about the QG show being an inspiration for this, it's being used by a number of people/organisations within chess to promote the game or their products.
  

"As Mikhail Tal would say ' Let's have a bit of hooliganism! '"

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Nernstian59
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #85 - 03/16/22 at 23:32:43
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"Countering the Queen's Gambit" by Prusikin (see my post #83) was just released by New in Chess.  A quick comparison of the earlier German edition to the sample pages given for this English version suggests the latter is a straight translation.  The page count for the English volume is higher, possibly due the use of a single column format.  The German edition used a double column layout. 

The only addition in the English version that I've found so far is Prusikin's statement in his Foreword that he used MegaBase 2021, ChessBase's Correspondence Database, and Stockfish 13 for reference and analysis.  Interestingly, a few paragraphs before this, Prusikin mentions that the eponymous Netflix series was his inspiration for writing a book on the Queen's Gambit.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #84 - 01/09/22 at 18:35:29
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1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 Be7 6. e3 O-O 7. Bd3 Re8 8. Nf3 c6 9. Qc2
This position can be reached by various move orders. It is robust, playable against 1c4 as well as 1d4, and does not commit to an early Be7 or Bb4 in non-exchange lines. I don't see how White can "move order" black out of this position without playing a different system, for example Ne2 instead of Nf3.

9...h6!? 10. Bf4!? Be6!?
This position has only been seen in a few games.
11. O-O Nbd7 12. h3 (12Rab1 Nh4) a6!? and now for example:

13. Rab1 (minority attack) Rc8 14. b4 b5 15. a4 Nb6 16. a5 Nc4, the position is at least equal for black.

White could also play in the center.
13Ne5 Rc8 14. Rad1 c5!? 15. Nd7 Qd7 16. dc5 Bc5 17. Qb1 Qe7 18. Ne2 Bd7 19. Nd4 Ne4 and again black is doing well.

The general approach for black after ...h6 Bf4 is to play ...Be6 followed by queen side expansion. Someone may have mentioned it before on this forum, in which case I apologize in advance for the lack of attribution.

I have not been able to find many human games. Sometimes Stockfish tends to meander as white. For example playing Rad1 and following up with Rc1. As with people meandering, I take this as an indication that no positive sequence (computer) or plan (human) has been found. Stockfish may continue to claim an advantage for white, until it recalibrates. Meanwhile, black has a solid game and a plan of queen-side expansion.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #83 - 12/31/21 at 03:44:10
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kylemeister wrote on 05/17/21 at 22:06:01:
By the way, a recent book in German by GM Michael Prusikin addresses the main line Exchange from a Black perspective.

A couple of things I'm a bit curious about:

--what is presented in the apparently 2 pages on how to effectively fight against the Botvinnik plan?
--what is it that he is calling the "soft" Carlsbad structure?


A recent post by tracke in the Anti-Sicilian section mentioned an upcoming book from New in Chess titled "Countering the Queen's Gambit" by GM Michael Prusikin.  This appears to be an English translation of the German-language book in kylemeister's post.  If I had known an English version was coming, I would have waited for it.  However, having the original German book does allow me to respond to the questions in the earlier post, at least within the limits of my high-school level German and Google translate:

1) The two pages against the Botvinnik plan are devoted to the game Dejan Nestorovic - Miodrag Savic SRB Central-ch op-A Paracin 2015.  This game features a relatively early ...b7-b5 in order to drive back White's c3 knight with ...b5-b4.  However, this isn't the recommendation in Prusikin's theoretical section, which goes for the trendy ...h6 and ...Nh5 plan.

2) Prusikin says the term "soft" Carlsbad structure is his own invention.  It's his unofficial name for the structure with Black pawns on a7, b6, c6, and d5, which typically arises after White plays cxd5 in the Tartakower Variation.   

Note: I had to remove the link to Prusikin's "Das Damengambit" in kylemeister's message since I can't yet put up posts containing links.
« Last Edit: 12/31/21 at 23:30:35 by Nernstian59 »  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #82 - 12/28/21 at 00:02:23
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GM Justin Tan analyzes Carlsen-Frouzja and Caruana-Asadi in the December 21 edition of ChessPublishing. He states "The classical QGD move order 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 d5 has seen something of a resurgence recently, as modern engines and theoreticians have been showing that Black’s position remains solid after 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5." Games and analysis include ...h6 for black.

It's my recollection that the natural ...h6 was once rejected in favor of Nbd7-Nf8 because black hoped to play Re8-e6-h6. Nice idea, but it hardly ever happens. More recent theory has black playing ...g6, intending ...Bf5 at some point, with a knight on g7 or d6 for support. The plan is positionally well motivated but takes time.

...h6 at some point is getting more time in the theory limelight. It will be a while before I can integrate these two games and GM Tan's analysis with my own. In the mean time, I would like to build on some analysis previously presented on this thread.

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 Be7 6. e3 O-O 7. Bd3 Re8 8. Nf3 h6 9. Bf4. Here I suggested c5 for black. Fans of the Tarrasch Defense should take a look at this position. You can basically treat it as a tabiya position and improvise from here. One example:
9...c5 10. dc5 Bc5 11. O-O Nc6 12. h3 a6 13. Rc1 Ba7 14. Ne2
The computer says White has an advantage, but I think that is just because black has an isolated queen pawn. The engine now suggests 14...Qb6. More natural to me is 14...Ne4. Playing on with either move, the engine eventually sees equal chances.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #81 - 10/20/21 at 18:40:39
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I am always amazed how big club players think the advantage for white is in the Carlsbad structure. The majority don't have the technical skills to produce a win from a minority attack. In addition to h6, Bh4 Nh5 which has been scoring well for black, in high level games recently, there is 1.d4 d5 2c4 e6 3Nc3 Nf6 4pxp Nxd5.
           This leads to semi-tarrasch type positions. Kramnik and others have done a good job showing it is not trivial for white to find an advantage here either,
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #80 - 09/09/21 at 13:25:50
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MNb wrote on 09/08/21 at 06:40:41:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Be7 6.e3 O-O 7.Bd3 Re8 8.Nf3 h6 9.Bf4 Nh5 10.Be5 Nc6 went well for Black in Koczka-Pastor, HUNchT 1995)


9...c5 may also be worth a try.

After 9Nge2, the game can proceed in many ways. This is just one, from ChessPublishing:
"1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 Be7 6. e3 O-O 7. Bd3 Re8 8. Nge2 c6 9. Qc2 Nbd7 10. O-O Nf8 11. f3 Ng6 12. Rad1 h6, which actually isn't a pawn sacrifice but it feels quite artificial, 13. Bf6 Bf6 14. Bg6 fg6 15. e4"

Now either ...dxe 16fxe Bg5, or 15...Bg5 16f4 Be7 seem very reasonable for black.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #79 - 09/08/21 at 06:40:41
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FreeRepublic wrote on 09/07/21 at 21:12:49:
Perhaps black's nuanced move order, delaying or avoiding ...c6, requires a nuanced reply, delaying or avoiding Qc2.

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Be7 6.e3 O-O 7.Bd3 Re8 8.Nf3 h6 9.Bh4 (9.Bf4 Nh5 10.Be5 Nc6 went well for Black in Koczka-Pastor, HUNchT 1995) c6 idea 10...Ne4 or 10...Bg4 looks hard to meet for White. If this is correct only 8.Nge2 remains.
  

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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #78 - 09/07/21 at 21:12:49
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tony37 wrote on 09/07/21 at 13:06:59:
then there's 8.Nf3


You have a point there.

Let's go back to the post by alyechin:

"1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 Be7 6. e3 O-O 7. Bd3 Re8 8.Qc2 h6 9. Bh4 c5!"

According to my data base, white's most common eighth move is 8Qc2. This is even true in recent years and with players rated over 2400.

However, unlike 8Nf3 and 8Nge2, it does not support the d pawn or prepare 0-0. Perhaps black's nuanced move order, delaying or avoiding ...c6, requires a nuanced reply, delaying or avoiding Qc2.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #77 - 09/07/21 at 15:07:18
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FreeRepublic wrote on 09/06/21 at 13:07:25:
Stigma wrote on 09/05/21 at 20:02:39:
So how does 8.Nge2 change things?

I think it is a good answer to the ...h6, early ...c5 idea. However it is committal. White might have wanted to play a line with Nf3 instead.

Good point. As White I have always played it with the knight on e2, but I should have thought of that. Black may be able to avoid White's usual Nf3 based setups this way.
  

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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #76 - 09/07/21 at 13:06:59
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FreeRepublic wrote on 09/06/21 at 13:07:25:
I think it is a good answer to the ...h6, early ...c5 idea. However it is committal. White might have wanted to play a line with Nf3 instead.

then there's 8.Nf3...
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #75 - 09/06/21 at 13:07:25
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Stigma wrote on 09/05/21 at 20:02:39:
So how does 8.Nge2 change things?

I think it is a good answer to the ...h6, early ...c5 idea. However it is committal. White might have wanted to play a line with Nf3 instead.
  
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