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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How playable is the QGD Exchange for black? (Read 8661 times)
FreeRepublic
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #80 - 09/09/21 at 13:25:50
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MNb wrote on 09/08/21 at 06:40:41:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Be7 6.e3 O-O 7.Bd3 Re8 8.Nf3 h6 9.Bf4 Nh5 10.Be5 Nc6 went well for Black in Koczka-Pastor, HUNchT 1995)


9...c5 may also be worth a try.

After 9Nge2, the game can proceed in many ways. This is just one, from ChessPublishing:
"1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 Be7 6. e3 O-O 7. Bd3 Re8 8. Nge2 c6 9. Qc2 Nbd7 10. O-O Nf8 11. f3 Ng6 12. Rad1 h6, which actually isn't a pawn sacrifice but it feels quite artificial, 13. Bf6 Bf6 14. Bg6 fg6 15. e4"

Now either ...dxe 16fxe Bg5, or 15...Bg5 16f4 Be7 seem very reasonable for black.
  
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MNb
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #79 - 09/08/21 at 06:40:41
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FreeRepublic wrote on 09/07/21 at 21:12:49:
Perhaps black's nuanced move order, delaying or avoiding ...c6, requires a nuanced reply, delaying or avoiding Qc2.

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Be7 6.e3 O-O 7.Bd3 Re8 8.Nf3 h6 9.Bh4 (9.Bf4 Nh5 10.Be5 Nc6 went well for Black in Koczka-Pastor, HUNchT 1995) c6 idea 10...Ne4 or 10...Bg4 looks hard to meet for White. If this is correct only 8.Nge2 remains.
  

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FreeRepublic
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #78 - 09/07/21 at 21:12:49
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tony37 wrote on 09/07/21 at 13:06:59:
then there's 8.Nf3


You have a point there.

Let's go back to the post by alyechin:

"1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 Be7 6. e3 O-O 7. Bd3 Re8 8.Qc2 h6 9. Bh4 c5!"

According to my data base, white's most common eighth move is 8Qc2. This is even true in recent years and with players rated over 2400.

However, unlike 8Nf3 and 8Nge2, it does not support the d pawn or prepare 0-0. Perhaps black's nuanced move order, delaying or avoiding ...c6, requires a nuanced reply, delaying or avoiding Qc2.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #77 - 09/07/21 at 15:07:18
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FreeRepublic wrote on 09/06/21 at 13:07:25:
Stigma wrote on 09/05/21 at 20:02:39:
So how does 8.Nge2 change things?

I think it is a good answer to the ...h6, early ...c5 idea. However it is committal. White might have wanted to play a line with Nf3 instead.

Good point. As White I have always played it with the knight on e2, but I should have thought of that. Black may be able to avoid White's usual Nf3 based setups this way.
  

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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #76 - 09/07/21 at 13:06:59
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FreeRepublic wrote on 09/06/21 at 13:07:25:
I think it is a good answer to the ...h6, early ...c5 idea. However it is committal. White might have wanted to play a line with Nf3 instead.

then there's 8.Nf3...
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #75 - 09/06/21 at 13:07:25
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Stigma wrote on 09/05/21 at 20:02:39:
So how does 8.Nge2 change things?

I think it is a good answer to the ...h6, early ...c5 idea. However it is committal. White might have wanted to play a line with Nf3 instead.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #74 - 09/05/21 at 20:02:39
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FreeRepublic wrote on 09/03/21 at 18:57:17:
alyechin wrote on 09/03/21 at 07:12:14:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 Be7 6. e3 O-O 7. Bd3 Re8 8. Qc2 h6 9. Bh4 c5!?


That is new to me and looks very promising. Thanks.

Without taking a stand on how good this is, White has played a move order where Qc2 can be delayed further or even skipped altogether.

So how does 8.Nge2 change things? On the face of it 8...h6 9.Bh4 c5 looks riskier there, with White one move closer to castling and d5 tactically weak due to Bh7+ discovered attacks.

Maybe Black's point is 8.Nge2 Ne4 or 8...h6 9.Bh4 Ne4 instead?
  

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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #73 - 09/03/21 at 18:57:17
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alyechin wrote on 09/03/21 at 07:12:14:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 Be7 6. e3 O-O 7. Bd3 Re8 8.
Qc2 h6 9. Bh4 c5!?


That is new to me and looks very promising. Thanks.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #72 - 09/03/21 at 18:56:12
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kylemeister wrote on 09/02/21 at 23:40:54:
of an article in the latest CBM, which attributes it to Eliskases.


I don't subscribe to CBM, but would be interested to know their opinion.

According to my data base (Chess Assistant) Eliskases played the line once, in 1951. It was first played by Gosta Stoltz in 1932, also one game. I'm not sure the line is properly named.

Guillermo Soppe played this line 15 times as black between 1989 and 2004. He lost one game (to Quinteros), won seven, and drew 7. Perhaps we should call it the Soppe variation.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #71 - 09/03/21 at 15:35:23
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alyechin wrote on 09/03/21 at 07:12:14:
Very playable:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 Be7 6. e3 O-O 7. Bd3 Re8 8.
Qc2 h6 9. Bh4 c5!?

An old ECO/Informant bit even had 9...c5 as "!".
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #70 - 09/03/21 at 07:12:14
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Very playable:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 Be7 6. e3 O-O 7. Bd3 Re8 8.
Qc2 h6 9. Bh4 c5!?

  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #69 - 09/02/21 at 23:40:54
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FreeRepublic wrote on 09/02/21 at 20:49:27:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. cxd5 exd5 6. Bg5 c6 7. e3 Be7 8. Qc2 O-O 9. Bd3 Re8 10. O-O g6

I noticed that that is the subject of an article in the latest CBM, which attributes it to Eliskases.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #68 - 09/02/21 at 20:49:27
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Lots to talk about here (exchange variation) and there (avoiding or minimizing the exchange variation). So I will try to narrow my focus:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. cxd5 exd5 6. Bg5 c6 7. e3 Be7 8. Qc2 O-O 9. Bd3 Re8 10. O-O g6

I did a search on games from this position. I restricted the search to players rated above 2400. I was curious to see how this fared with best (at least better) play. Results, +10,=18,-8. Restricting the search to the last ten years: +2,=3,-3.

10...g6 counters white's battering ram on the diagonal and allows black's knights to move flexibly. Black will suggest the trade of dark squared bishops with either ..Nh5 or ...Ne4 depending on circumstances. The queen knight will then go to f6 or b6. A maneuver of a knight to g2 (via h4) or d3 (via e4) enables the positionally desirable move ...Bf5. Sometimes white's minority attack (b4 ...a6 a4 then b5) is answered with ...axb, sometimes with ...cxb.

There are other systems for black that I think also have merit. For example the Alortsev with the Tartakover, or the Nimzo/Ragozin/Vienna/Mikenas.

The position after move white's tenth can be reached by many move orders and supports the Queen's Gambit Declined vs. the English, and retains the option of playing a Tartakover, Cambridge Springs among other systems. So this is all pretty nice, provided you like play starting at move ten and moving forward.

P.S. An unrestricted search does not fare so well, with white scoring 58%. So, it's not easy, but there is light at the end of the tunnel for those who are willing the explore the intricacies of this line.
  
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MNb
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #67 - 06/19/21 at 06:05:24
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Unfortunately for White you're still right in the 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cd5 ed5 5.Bg5 c6 6.e3 Be7 7 Bd3 Nbd7 8.Qc2 Nh5 and 8...h6 9.Bh4 Nh5 variations. Black provokes h3 and g4 by threatening ...Bf5. The untraditional minority attack then is countered with ...Be6, ...h5 and evt. the manoeuvre Ng7-e8-d6.
  

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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #66 - 06/18/21 at 18:42:15
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kylemeister wrote on 06/18/21 at 18:20:13:
FreeRepublic wrote on 06/18/21 at 15:49:41:
It looks like a majority of the games feature mutual queen side castling, which rules out the traditional minority attack.

I'm reminded of this game, which was used in the 1980s book Test Your Positional Play.
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1060813


In this case, white insisted on a minority attack! However I wouldn't call it a "traditional" minority attack.
  
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