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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Marshall Gambit Mainline - Novelty on Move Ten (Read 22151 times)
Hiruma666
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Re: Marshall Gambit Mainline - Novelty on Move Ten
Reply #40 - 05/12/20 at 18:36:58
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Thanks for the feedback !
After 23...Bb7 24. h3! Nb8 25.Qxa7 Bxf3 26.Bxf3 Nc6 27.Bxc6 Rxc6, I like 28.Qa4! intending Qb5 and b4 or a4-a5, for instance 28...Rcc8 29.Qb5 e5 (29...Rb8 30.b4) 30.a4! Rb8 31.a5 and black is far from equality. But it needs deeper analysis.

27...Nxd8 is very interesting. Simply a bad miss by me. Both engine neglect this move at first and since it seemed less logical (giving the e5 square etc.) I just did'n pay much attention, but even if Leela prefers slightly white at first, It is not much.
I don't have the time today to look at it more seriously, but I'll do it. But I have mixed feeling considering it being that critical, since it doesn't change the essence of black position.
But thanks a lot for pointing it out, very relevant !
  
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Re: Marshall Gambit Mainline - Novelty on Move Ten
Reply #39 - 05/12/20 at 15:41:57
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Interesting lines Hiruma666 ... thanks for sharing.

I don't know if you want weak Stockfish analysis, you are probably better at using chess computers for me and your points make sense but some (half baked) ideas:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.e4 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Bb4+ 6.Bd2 Qxd4 7.Bxb4 Qxe4+ 8.Be2 Na6 9.Ba5 b6 10. Qd6 Bd7 11.Bc3 f6 12.Nf3 Nh6 13.Rd1 Rd8 14.Qa3 Bc8 15.Nd2 Qf4 16.Bh5+ Nf7 17.0-0 c5 18.Qa4+ Ke7 19.Rfe1 Ng5 20.Re3 Rd6 21.Rde1 Rhd8 22.Nf3 Kf8 23.a3
maybe 23... Bb7 instead Black is eventually getting the Na6 back in play?
24. Nxg5 Qxg5 25 Bf3 Bxf3 26 Rxf3 Nb8 and White can try 27 h4 but Stockfish seems to think it peters out.
Maybe better is 24. h3 Nb8 25 Qxa7 Bxf3 26 Bxf3 Nc6 27 Bxc6 Rxc6 and Black is eventually getting e5, Ne6, etc.

23... Nf7 24. h3 g6 25 Re4 Qh6 26 Bxf6 gxh5 27 Bxd8 Nxd8 also looks interesting?



  
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Hiruma666
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Re: Marshall Gambit Mainline - Novelty on Move Ten
Reply #38 - 05/12/20 at 14:21:17
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Hey Jack, Hey all !
I am new on the website, and I wished to continue the discussion I started with Jack on Chessable.
I did'nt check the 10...e5 line but I wanted to share my view on the absolute main line.
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.e4 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Bb4+ 6.Bd2 Qxd4 7.Bxb4 Qxe4+ 8.Be2 Na6 9.Ba5 b6 10. Qd6 Bd7 11.Bc3 f6 12.Nf3
You spoke a lot about the main move 12...Nh6 but I think it is not ne best choice for black, especially according to Leela.

12...Nh6 13.Rd1 Rd8 14.Qa3 Bc8 15.Nd2 Df4 16.Fh5+ Cf7 17.0-0 c5 18.Da4+ Re7 19.Tfe1 and here black has two big tries :

1) 19...The8 proposed by grewgaw, but he did'nt seem to mention white best try 20.a3 ! Playing b4 and then putting pression on the Na6-a7 pawn duo is one of white key idea.
So 20.a3 Kf8 21.b4 Re7 22.Ne4 Rxd1 (22...Bb7 23.Nxf6! is similar) 23.Qxd1 Bb7 24.g3 Qc7 25.Nxf6! (white main idea in this particular position) 25...gxf6 26.Bxf6 Qc6 27.Bxe7+ Rxe7 28.f3 cxb4 29.Bxf7 Kxf7 30.Qd3! (the move Stockfish missed at low depth, Leela did'nt) 30...bxa3 31.Qxh7+ Ke8 32.Rd1 Qc8 33.Qg8+ and white is very clearly playing for two results.

2) 19...Ng5!? is the move chose by Jack it seems. The sequence 20.Re3 Rd6 21.Rde1 Rhd8 22.Nf3 Kf8 23.a3 Nf7 seems to be well known (1000+ visits in Let's Check) 24.h3! The move of Leela
Then some possiblities for black
a) 24...Nh6 to go to f5 but 25.g3! Qf5 26.g4! show one of the idea of 24.h3. Black is in huge trouble after 26...Qf4 27.Ne5!
b) 24...Rd3 25.Rxd3 Rxd3 26.Qc2! (stronger than the cutest Be5!?) 26...Qxc4 27.Nd2 Qd5 28.Be2 Bb7 29.f3 Rxc3 30.Qcx3. The position is not that bad for black but white is slightly better, some of the black pieces still have problems
c)24...g6 let's say it is the main move, 25.Re4! Qh6 26.Bxf6 gxh5 (if 26...Qxh5 27.Rf4 R8d7 28.Be5! white is better)
Back to 26...gxh5 27.Bxd8 Rxd8 28.b4 cxb4 29.axb4 Qf6 30.Qa3 Kg8 31.Ne5! Nxe5 (31...Rf8 32.Nd3! Leela) 32.Rxe5 Rf8 33.R1e2 h4 34.R5e4 Bb7 (34...Kf8 35.f3! and black pieces are passive) 35.Rxe6 Qg7 36.f3! Bxf3 37.Rf2 Nc7 38.Re3 Bb7 39.Qa2 Rxf2 40.Qxf2.
We achieve a quite typical position of these lines, black has two pieces for a rook, but h4 is weak and more important, the black is so weak that I think the position is very difficult to play. The rook is very strong in such case.

So one story short about this 12...Nh6, maybe I missed one or two better try for black at some point, but Leela seems to dislike these kind of position for black. And we can't blame her, the Na6 is stuck because of a7 hanging in a lot of case, the Nf7 is not great either (protecting duty but nothing more), and the Bc8 is blocked by the e6 pawn, and on b7, he can be refrained by f3. Long story short, I don't like black since to me white has a long lasting initiative and dynamic play in most of the line.

Instead, I want to point out that 12...Rd8! is for me the best equalizer weapon at black disposal. As you will see, black knight will be on f5 (instead of f7) allowing black to have counterplay in time against the white king by Nh4 and Bb7. Also ...Kf7 followed by ...Rf8 and ...Kg8 can come quickly. It is much more fun to play, and I believe as sound as 12...Nh6 !

12...Rd8 13.Nd2 Qg6 14.Qa3 is the only real try for white.
14...Bc8 15.0-0 Ne7 and we achieve a crossroad where white have some different plans.
a) 16.Rfe1 c5! thematic move here 17.Qa4+ Kf7 18.a3!? the usual white idea (18.Rad1 transpose in b) (18.Ne4 Rhf8 19.Rad1 Nf5 is fine for black) 18...Nf5 19.b4 Rd7! defending a7 and preparing Rhd8 is solving black problems.
b) 16.Rad1 is the main try, 16...c5! 17.Qa4+ Kf7 18.Bf3
(18.a3 Rhf8 19.b4 e5! is ok for black)
(18.Rfe1 Rhf8 19.Ne4 Nf5 20.Ng3 Nxg3 21.hxg3 Kg8 is completely ok for black)
So back to 18.Bf3 Nf5 19.Be4
(19.Bc6 intending Bb5 is a prefect example of how things work tacticly for black 19...Rhf8 20.Bb5 Nh4! and the counter play is in time 21.g3 Kg8 22.Bxa6 Rxd2! work for black)
So 19.Be4 Rhf8 20.Nf3 intending Nh5 20...Qg4! is fine for black, for example 21.Bc6 intending Bb5 once again 21...Qf4 22.Bb5 Bb7! 23.Bd2 Qg4 24.h3 Qh5 25.Bc6 Bxc6 26.Qxc6 Nb8! and once again black has solved his problems.

I think the move are easier to fin in this 12...Rd8 stuff :
...Raf8, ...Nf8, ...Kf7-g8 etc. And black has also more chance against white king.
And also in pratical games, black did very much ok
  
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Jack Hughes
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Re: Marshall Gambit Mainline - Novelty on Move Ten
Reply #37 - 05/10/20 at 10:25:25
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Hi all, just an announcement that I have opened the thread of Chessable for applications to beta test the course. If anyone reading here is interested in doing so then they should post in that thread (link: https://www.chessable.com/discussion/thread/202828/looking-for-beta-testers-for-...). Anyone not interested in beta testing but still interested in the course might also be interested, because I've included an extract (1753 words) from the course consisting of my textual annotation to the position arising after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 c6 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. Bg5 dxc4 6. e4 b5 7. e5 h6 8. Bh4 g5 9. Nxg5 hxg5 10. Bxg5
Also, I know I should have done this earlier but gewgaw I would like to thank you for sharing your analysis with us. I hadn't looked at it properly at the time of my last post but I since have and believe that you have done good work there. I know it's easy to feel unappreciated at times when sharing analysis on this forum, so please take this comment as an indication of gratitude from me for your contribution.
  
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Re: Marshall Gambit Mainline - Novelty on Move Ten
Reply #36 - 05/07/20 at 02:53:57
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Syzygy wrote on 05/04/20 at 23:22:43:
I would like to point out that Modern Chess has had a database out on the Open Catalan with 7...Rb8 for a while now. From the preview, IM Robert Ris seems like he's gone for the approach with 12...Bb4!, and many of his choices coincide with my analysis. Does anyone currently have this database? Any thoughts?



I purchased it -- I don't know these lines as well as you guys and still reviewing the product but he analyzes your 22... Kd8! line and keeps going for a while ... he stops at 18... Rh5! in the other line.


  
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Jack Hughes
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Re: Marshall Gambit Mainline - Novelty on Move Ten
Reply #35 - 05/06/20 at 11:52:16
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Okay, I think I am long overdue for a post in this thread.
- Indeed the questioner was someone who read this thread - in fact, it was me! At the time I wrote that question I hadn't analysed the line with 12... Nc5 too deeply, but I hard turned Stockfish on and found that it was often leading to 0.00 positions where black was returning the pawn and superficially it seemed like black was in return eliminating white's long-term positional trumps (e.g. the dark-squared bishop) and getting free develop. In other words, finally a solution to the Marshall Gambit that would be good OTB without a computer to defend for you! Once I analysed it with Leela it turned out that this was very far being the case, and a lot of those 0.00 positions were very unpleasant defensive tasks that required lots of concrete memorisation. I don't have my files on my right now so I can't give any exact lines, but I think that anyone who has access to Leela (even on a CPU) should be able to find them pretty easily. Gustafsson pretty much concurred with that assessment, which I was happy to see. In line with Szygy's post, my analysis currently indicates that 12... Nh6 is black's best bet. At the moment my mainline is with 19... Ng5, but I can't recall what my file said about 19... Rhe8. I might take a closer look at it and get back to you.
- I do not currently own either Semkov's book or the Ris database. Under normal circumstances, I'm usually able to access books just a few months after they come out at the library near my university (which I believe claims to have the best chess catalogue in the Southern Hemisphere, and based on my experience with it that claim seems pretty plausible to me). Unfortunately, that's not open at the moment for obvious reasons, so if I want to take a look at the Semkov book I might have to pay for it myself... Lee, I wish you'd instead come on to talk about just how bad the book was Tongue! After the discussion in this thread and I've concluded that 5... a6 is indeed more fun for black than 5... c6 in the Catalan, so I'm switching my main recommendation for the course. So I might have to buy that as well!
- Back on the subject of this thread, I have discovered that in line B2 black gets enough counterplay after 18... Rae8 19. Qxa7 Ne6 20. Rd2 fxe5 21. Bxe5 Bg6 22. Qd7 Bf7! and so I am now much more satisfied with black's prospects in the line with 10... e5. According to my current analysis white's most promising try might even be to just relent to a queen exchange with 14. Qxe5, leading to an endgame where white is very slightly better but I don't think black should be worried.
- I am planning to enter into beta testing on Chessable in the next few days and will open a thread on Chessable announcing that and explaining what sort of help I'm hoping for from them. If any readers here are interested in beta testing keep an eye out on the Chessable forums. The preliminary course title is 'The Sharpest Semi-Slav', but I am open to other suggestions.
  
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Re: Marshall Gambit Mainline - Novelty on Move Ten
Reply #34 - 05/04/20 at 23:22:43
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I would like to point out that Modern Chess has had a database out on the Open Catalan with 7...Rb8 for a while now. From the preview, IM Robert Ris seems like he's gone for the approach with 12...Bb4!, and many of his choices coincide with my analysis. Does anyone currently have this database? Any thoughts?

  
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Re: Marshall Gambit Mainline - Novelty on Move Ten
Reply #33 - 05/04/20 at 17:18:46
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I finally got Semkov’s book.  He gives ..h6 in the Noteboom.  He does a nice job collecting and explaining the corr. games in this line.  Also good coverage of the Marshall.  It’s a good book if you play these lines or are writing a chessable course Smiley
  
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Re: Marshall Gambit Mainline - Novelty on Move Ten
Reply #32 - 04/27/20 at 17:41:22
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Thanks for your reply! Smiley

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 c6 4. e4 dxe4 5. Nxe4 Bb4+ 6.
Bd2 Qxd4 7. Bxb4 Qxe4+ 8. Be2 Na6 9. Ba5 b6 10. Qd6 Bd7 11. Bc3 f6 12. Nf3 Nh6 (12... Nc5 13. Bb4 Ne7 14. Bxc5 bxc5 15. Qxc5 e5 16. Nd2 Qxg2 17. O-O-O Qg5
18. Rhg1 Qh6 19. f4 Ng6 20. Kb1 Qxf4 21. Nb3 (21. Ka1) 21... Rd8 22. Na5 (22.Qxa7 Bf5+ 23. Ka1 O-O 24. Rxd8 Rxd8 25. Qb6 Rc8 26. c5 Qxh2 27. Bc4+ Kh8) 22...
Bf5+ 23. Ka1 Rxd1+ 24. Rxd1 Kf7 25. Qxa7+ Kg8 26. Rd8+ Nf8 27. Qg1 g5 (27... c5) 28. Nxc6 Kg7 29. Ne7 Be4 30. a4 Ne6 31. Nd5 Bxd5 32. Qa7+ Kh6 33. Rxh8 Qc1+ 34. Ka2 Be4 35. Qe7 Bb1+ 36. Ka3 Qe3+ 37. Kb4 Qb6+ 38. Kc3 Qe3+) 13. Rd1 Rd8
14. Qa3 Bc8 15. Nd2 (15. Rxd8+ Kxd8 16. Qd6+ Bd7 17. Qa3 (17. O-O Qxe2 18. Rd1
Nc5 19. Re1 Nf7 20. Qg3 Ne4 21. Rxe2 Nxg3 22. hxg3 e5) 17... Bc8 18. Qd6+ Bd7
19. Nd2 Qxg2 20. Bf3 Qg6 21. Qa3 Bc8 22. Qd6+ Bd7 23. Bxc6 Qe8) 15... Qf4 (15... Qg6 16. Bf3 c5 17. Bc6+ Kf7 18. O-O Nf5 19. Ne4) 16. Bh5+ Nf7 17. O-O c5
18. Qa4+ Ke7 19. Rfe1 Rhe8 20. Qc2 (20. Qc6 Kf8 21. a3 Re7) (20. Re3 Kf8 21.h3 Qc7) 20... Qh6 21. Bf3 Kf8 22. a3 e5 23. b4 Re7 24. Nb3 (24. b5 Nc7) 24...Rxd1 25. Qxd1 Qf4

Many forced lines and only moves, but indeed, Black holds. I get the impression chess is drying out. Undecided

  

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Re: Marshall Gambit Mainline - Novelty on Move Ten
Reply #31 - 04/26/20 at 21:53:07
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I'm not a big fan of 12...Nc5 - while Black has drawn all of the correspondence games, after 15. Qxc5 White has a dangerous initiative. For instance, in your line, 21. Nb3!? looks like a challenging alternative.

Instead, I think Black is doing fine after 12...Nh6. The mainline runs 13. Rd1 Rd8 14. Qa3 Bc8 15. Nd2 Qf4 16. Bh5+ Nf7 17. O-O, when Black has a choice between 17...Qd6 and 17...c5.

Both moves should equalize, but perhaps the cleanest is 17...c5 18. Qa4+ Ke7 19. Rfe1 Rhe8. White has failed to show anything in correspondence play, i.e. 20. Qc2 Qh6 21. Bf3 Kf8 22. a3 e5 with comfortable equality.
  
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Re: Marshall Gambit Mainline - Novelty on Move Ten
Reply #30 - 04/26/20 at 12:32:56
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BeeCaves wrote on 04/19/20 at 17:34:55:
FYI, there was a big segment on Marshall Gambit in the Latest Jan's Opening Clinic on chess24. 

Maybe someone here asked the question!  Smiley



Inspired by his comments I looked at the triangle and here's my mainline, weird stuff, Black is under huge pressure or maybe not, who am I to comment engine moves, which are out of my scope:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 c6 4. e4 dxe4 5. Nxe4 Bb4+ 6.
Bd2 Qxd4 7. Bxb4 Qxe4+ 8. Be2 Na6 9. Ba5 b6 10. Qd6 Bd7 11. Bc3 f6 12. Nf3 Nc5
13. Bb4 Ne7 14. Bxc5 bxc5 15. Qxc5 e5 16. Nd2 Qxg2 17. O-O-O Qg5 18. Rhg1 Qh6
19. f4 Ng6 20. Kb1 Qxf4 21. Ka1

  

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Re: Marshall Gambit Mainline - Novelty on Move Ten
Reply #29 - 04/19/20 at 17:34:55
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FYI, there was a big segment on Marshall Gambit in the Latest Jan's Opening Clinic on chess24. 

Maybe someone here asked the question!  Smiley
  
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Re: Marshall Gambit Mainline - Novelty on Move Ten
Reply #28 - 04/08/20 at 09:29:05
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belgian wrote on 04/08/20 at 06:20:49:
Jack Hughes wrote on 02/25/20 at 00:17:03:
I am recommending 16. Na4 Qa6 (instead of that game's 16... Qb5) when the mainline with 17. a3 Bxd5 18. Bxd5 Ne5 19. axb4 Rxd5 20. Qe2 cxb4 21. Nc3 Qd6 22. Nxd5 Qxd5 leads to a very interesting and double edged position where black is an exchange down but has active pieces and a highly mobile pawn majority on the queenside and recent ICCF games suggest black is in excellent theoretical shape.


I am not a Semi-Slav expert (yet!?, get that course out! Wink) but was under the impression that White's best try for a small edge was 19. Nxc5!? Bxc5 20. Qe2! as shown in Bryan Paulsen's (now dated) book and Schandorff's reason for preferring Qb5 if my memory serves me.

That's definitely a valid line for white, but in my view it is less critical than the endgame arising after 19. axb4/19. Qe2, and perhaps also less critical than 19. Nxc5!? Bxc5 20. axb4 Bxf2+ 21. Kxf2. The mainline in my files goes 20... exd5 21. Qxe5 b3 22. Rae1 Qc6 23. h4 Re8 24. Qc3 Kb7 25. Re7+ Bxe7 26. fxe7 Rhg8 with equality. I haven't actually written up my coverage of this line yet, but of course I will offer more verbal explanation there of what is going on.
Laramonet wrote on 04/08/20 at 07:11:48:
Hi Jack, any idea when your course will be out ?

My current intention is to start beta testing early in May, with an optimistic release date some time in June. Given that this is a part time passion project rather than a serious attempt to make money I cannot in good conscience really promise that I will stick to those goals, but those are the goals.
  
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Re: Marshall Gambit Mainline - Novelty on Move Ten
Reply #27 - 04/08/20 at 07:11:48
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Hi Jack, any idea when your course will be out ?
  
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Re: Marshall Gambit Mainline - Novelty on Move Ten
Reply #26 - 04/08/20 at 06:20:49
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Jack Hughes wrote on 02/25/20 at 00:17:03:
I am recommending 16. Na4 Qa6 (instead of that game's 16... Qb5) when the mainline with 17. a3 Bxd5 18. Bxd5 Ne5 19. axb4 Rxd5 20. Qe2 cxb4 21. Nc3 Qd6 22. Nxd5 Qxd5 leads to a very interesting and double edged position where black is an exchange down but has active pieces and a highly mobile pawn majority on the queenside and recent ICCF games suggest black is in excellent theoretical shape.


I am not a Semi-Slav expert (yet!?, get that course out! Wink) but was under the impression that White's best try for a small edge was 19. Nxc5!? Bxc5 20. Qe2! as shown in Bryan Paulsen's (now dated) book and Schandorff's reason for preferring Qb5 if my memory serves me.
  
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