Latest Updates:
Normal Topic Sveshnikov blitz&rapid repertoire (Read 1014 times)
gwnn
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 472
Joined: 03/21/11
Re: Sveshnikov blitz&rapid repertoire
Reply #7 - 03/10/20 at 19:50:42
Post Tools
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/10/20 at 03:59:46:
gwnn wrote on 03/09/20 at 15:43:20:
I find these symmetrical fianchetto positions a bit too subtle for me.

Aren't the Petroff and the QGA subtle? In my experience white players are unhappy against this symmetrical line. Black can copy for a long time, but doesn't have to. You can play for a draw against strong players and for a win against weak players. But it only works against 2.Nc3 or 2.g3, as black hasn't committed to ...Nf6.

Well there are many subtleties in both the Petroff and the QGA, but they have a fast storm of pawn exchanges right at the start, making for a different kind of struggle than slowly building up our forces and timing the central/wing break correctly. I'm not saying that it is not a skill I should develop, just that I'm more interested in simpler positions with black at the moment.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4646
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Sveshnikov blitz&rapid repertoire
Reply #6 - 03/10/20 at 04:24:35
Post Tools
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/10/20 at 03:59:46:
5...e6 aiming for the Keres-Parma is more palatable. (Actually I'm not sure about 5...e6 6.Nxd5 exd5 7.Qb3.)

I see that 5...e6 (which I thought was just a mistake) has been addressed in Chess Publishing.
https://www.chesspublishing.com/content/12/apr17.htm#sym
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 909
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: Sveshnikov blitz&rapid repertoire
Reply #5 - 03/10/20 at 03:59:46
Post Tools
gwnn wrote on 03/09/20 at 15:43:20:
What is the difference between (1.c4 c5) 2. Nf3 Nc6 and 2. Nf3 Nf6 ?

In the lines I was advocating there are some subtle advantages to deferring ...Nc6. Of course in the Sveshnikov lines 2...Nc6 is essential.

gwnn wrote on 03/09/20 at 15:43:20:
Also, in line 1, is there something against Nf6+d5 whenever white goes for g3 (I guess: 1 c4 c5 2 g3 Nf6 3 Bg2 d5)?

Of course it's playable, but after 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.Nc3: If 5...Nc7 I really like white in the reversed Maroczy Bind position. 5...e6 aiming for the Keres-Parma is more palatable. (Actually I'm not sure about 5...e6 6.Nxd5 exd5 7.Qb3.) My objection is that again white is slightly for choice (after 5...e6 6.Nf3), and any English player worth his salt knows how to play this. But you should check this for yourself. 3...d5 is main line stuff, as is 1...Nf6 and 2...d5. Anyway if you like the Keres-Parma you have some flexibility in move orders.

gwnn wrote on 03/09/20 at 15:43:20:
I find these symmetrical fianchetto positions a bit too subtle for me.

Aren't the Petroff and the QGA subtle? In my experience white players are unhappy against this symmetrical line. Black can copy for a long time, but doesn't have to. You can play for a draw against strong players and for a win against weak players. But it only works against 2.Nc3 or 2.g3, as black hasn't committed to ...Nf6.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gwnn
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 472
Joined: 03/21/11
Re: Sveshnikov blitz&rapid repertoire
Reply #4 - 03/09/20 at 15:43:20
Post Tools
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/09/20 at 14:15:05:
gwnn wrote on 03/09/20 at 11:01:45:
What is the point of games 51&52 if white can play 3. d4 anyway?

The Sveshnikovs are advocating 1...c5 2...Nc6 3...e5 against an early Nf3 by white -- not as pirx suggested 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 c5 3.g3. But then when you go looking for example games in the database, the white and black players have completely different ideas from the author about which variations to allow/avoid. The English Opening is like that, which is what makes it great and frustrating at the same time. Some authors fix the games by changing the early moves to fit their recommendations. Whether that is more confusing or less is open to debate.

It sounds like you want a different repertoire:
  • 1.c4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7
  • 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e6
  • 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5
  • 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 e6 4.d4 d5

About that last one, many QGA players accept an IQP as black when white has committed to e2-e3. Otherwise, QGA players will have move order problems with 1...c5 against the English.

Thanks for your tips!

What is the difference between 2. Nf3 Nc6 and 2. Nf3 Nf6 ?

Also, in line 1, is there something against Nf6+d5 whenever white goes for g3 (I guess: 1 c4 c5 2 g3 Nf6 3 Bg2 d5)? I find these symmetrical fianchetto positions a bit too subtle for me. I'd rather assume the role of "center underminer" or "center builder, would-be defender" early in the opening. Probably a misguided concept but it is the best I have right now Smiley I am happy to wing it as long as I know I am not positionally lost after move 7, say.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 909
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: Sveshnikov blitz&rapid repertoire
Reply #3 - 03/09/20 at 14:15:05
Post Tools
gwnn wrote on 03/09/20 at 11:01:45:
What is the point of games 51&52 if white can play 3. d4 anyway?

The Sveshnikovs are advocating 1...c5 2...Nc6 3...e5 against an early Nf3 by white -- not as pirx suggested 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 c5 3.g3. But then when you go looking for example games in the database, the white and black players have completely different ideas from the author about which variations to allow/avoid. The English Opening is like that, which is what makes it great and frustrating at the same time. Some authors fix the games by changing the early moves to fit their recommendations. Whether that is more confusing or less is open to debate.

It sounds like you want a different repertoire:
  • 1.c4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7
  • 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e6
  • 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5
  • 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 e6 4.d4 d5

About that last one, many QGA players accept an IQP as black when white has committed to e2-e3. Otherwise, QGA players will have move order problems with 1...c5 against the English.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gwnn
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 472
Joined: 03/21/11
Re: Sveshnikov blitz&rapid repertoire
Reply #2 - 03/09/20 at 11:54:02
Post Tools
pirx wrote on 03/09/20 at 11:33:41:
If you like the position you get in Game 51&52, why not play 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 c5?

I am not sure you mean "generic you" or me, so to clarify: I don't think I like c5+e5. I like the positions after 1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 e6 so I would aim for them. I'm just not sure why Sveshnikov included both in his book.

If white refuses to play d4, I am OK with playing it myself and trying to keep the centre together afterwards. (Again, if white gets an initiative I can live with that, as long as it's a line I've seen before.)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
pirx
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 13
Joined: 11/16/19
Re: Sveshnikov blitz&rapid repertoire
Reply #1 - 03/09/20 at 11:33:41
Post Tools
If you like the position you get in Game 51&52, why not play 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 c5?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gwnn
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 472
Joined: 03/21/11
Sveshnikov blitz&rapid repertoire
03/09/20 at 11:01:45
Post Tools
I am trying to "learn" 1 c4 c5 for black. I don't mind getting a slightly worse/dangerous position if it means I can save some time. I am QGAing and Petroffing right now so I am fine with "draws" as long as there is some piece play involved and an open centre. So I thought the blitz&rapid repertoire is a good way to do that. But I am super confused by his move orders:
Game 51&52: 1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 e5 (52 by transposition)
Game 53: 1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 e6 etc (by transposition - the actual game had 1 c4 Nf6, but why include it if it leads to a different repertoire?)
Game 54: 1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4

What is the point of games 51&52 if white can play 3. d4 anyway?

I guess the book is showing both options just to offer different options. I'd rather play with an open position so I prefer to allow it. Or if white plays
1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. g3 I can play 4 .. d5 myself and just go through a few games there. Or over 4. e3 I can go for the Symmetric Tarrasch or maybe a direct d5 or so. Is that a decent plan? Any other line I am missing?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo