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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Modernized Modern by Fernandez (Read 8266 times)
Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Modernized Modern by Fernandez
Reply #45 - 05/04/21 at 22:09:17
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Hi.

Michael Ayton wrote on 04/21/21 at 10:04:06:
Quote:
Somewhat off topic but still quite related to the meet h4 with h6 doctrine; I will say that if you play 4...a6 via modern move order be aware that:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.h4
Is not really the same as
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.Qd2 followed by 6.h4.
Multiple authors clump these move orders together.

Very interesting, C_b_T! -- can you say a bit more? Does this relate mainly or entirely to ...h6 tries? You'll see that I've started a new thread on those, so discussion of this may or may not belong there ...

Missed this comment. Apologies.

What I can say is that against
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.h4
you want to go 5...h5 or 5...h6 directly.

If
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.Qd2
White is slower and you are (mildly) freer to not include an early h-pawn move.
E.g. 5...b5 6.f3 Nbd7 7.h4 c5!? (Edit: even though this idea has more point with a Nf6 instead of Bg7)
and even if say 5...Nf6 6.h4 happens you can still postpone deciding where to put the h-pawn with say 6...b5 7.f3 Nbd7
At some point moving the h-pawn when white has done h4 is natural though, so it may only be a practical point.

Regards.
CbT
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Modernized Modern by Fernandez
Reply #44 - 04/21/21 at 10:04:06
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Quote:
Somewhat off topic but still quite related to the meet h4 with h6 doctrine; I will say that if you play 4...a6 via modern move order be aware that:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.h4
Is not really the same as
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.Qd2 followed by 6.h4.
Multiple authors clump these move orders together.

Very interesting, C_b_T! -- can you say a bit more? Does this relate mainly or entirely to ...h6 tries? You'll see that I've started a new thread on those, so discussion of this may or may not belong there ...
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Modernized Modern by Fernandez
Reply #43 - 03/05/21 at 22:56:26
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Hi.

Michael Ayton wrote on 03/05/21 at 12:16:59:
Many thanks to both! That's exactly the sort of thing I was wanting to know. And I think you both pitched it exactly right in terms of giving a good indication of what F. covers without giving too much away, so to speak. For myself I might hang fire on the book for now as I'm more interested in Tiger's ...Nc6 anti-Austrian, and in ...h6 lines against the Be3 stuff -- covered a bit by Tiger, and, I see, in a recent Chessable offering.

I have to say I'm also in the 5...0-0 Austrian Pirc camp. It seems much more practical compared to 5...c5.

When it comes to Be3 stuff Fernandez seems to be clearly in the meet h4 with h5 camp. I tend to meet h4 with h6 myself, like you I take it, but mainly to keep the structure less determined and not for having any real idea if it is really objectively good as a strategic idea.

Somewhat off topic but still quite related to the meet h4 with h6 doctrine; I will say that if you play 4...a6 via modern move order be aware that:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.h4
Is not really the same as
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.Qd2 followed by 6.h4.
Multiple authors clump these move orders together.

Have a nice day.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Modernized Modern by Fernandez
Reply #42 - 03/05/21 at 12:16:59
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Many thanks to both! That's exactly the sort of thing I was wanting to know. And I think you both pitched it exactly right in terms of giving a good indication of what F. covers without giving too much away, so to speak. For myself I might hang fire on the book for now as I'm more interested in Tiger's ...Nc6 anti-Austrian, and in ...h6 lines against the Be3 stuff -- covered a bit by Tiger, and, I see, in a recent Chessable offering.
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Modernized Modern by Fernandez
Reply #41 - 03/05/21 at 05:51:48
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Hi.


Michael Ayton wrote on 03/04/21 at 14:03:10:
How does his Austrian coverage compare with Tiger's (2nd edition)? Any important divergences or novelties?

As noted there is a lot of Pirc coverage. Austrian Pirc comparison here is difficult because Fernandez goes for:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.f4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c5
While Tiger goes for:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.f4 Nf6 5.Nf3 0-0

And the lines become different. I guess a comparison between Fernandez and Marin's GM rep would be quite possible though.

In the Modern lines
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.f4 a6 5.Nf3 b5 6.Bd3 Nd7 7.e5 c5!?
Is given by Tiger with him saying he had to do a lot of analysis but that
8.Be4 Rb8 9.0-0! cxd4
Probably leads to a white maintaining a small advantage. The lines are long and complex and a lot of analysis is given. Fernandez is of the same opinion and gives relatively speaking less analysis. Tiger gives another move earlier as interesting alternative and probably does not show the strongest white play (it probably wasn't known then) but Fernandez does mention what looks like a problem continuation. Fernandez himself has yet another move that he recommends to confront white's sequence of moves in the opening (not mentioned by Tiger).

1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.f4 a6 5.Nf3 b5 6.Bd3 Nd7 7.Be3
I basically didn't check. Lots of lines Roll Eyes.

1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.f4 a6 5.Nf3 b5 6.Bd3 Nd7 7.a4!?
Which was recommended by Andrew Greet in "beating unusual chess defences: 1 e4 (2011)"
Is covered by both Tiger and Fernandez with Fernandez seemingly going for a practical line without much analysis and Tiger giving a few options in case you want to switch around as black. Both end up in non-forcing positions, so it is difficult to evaluate the strength of the lines.

I'd say these are the most important lines. Tiger is a lot broader, making the chapter a bit more interesting, but the impression you get is that Fernandez knows his lines and that what you are seeing is the most relevant stuff; which is also quite nice.

Have a nice day.
  
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hicetnunc
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Re: Modernized Modern by Fernandez
Reply #40 - 03/04/21 at 18:30:30
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Michael Ayton wrote on 03/04/21 at 14:03:10:
Can someone who has the book tell us a bit about what's actually in it, especially in the main/critical lines? The publisher's info is utterly useless here.

In the 3 Nc3 d6 4 Be3 a6 line, does he cover ...h5 and ...h6 in response to h2-h4, or only one of these?

How does his Austrian coverage compare with Tiger's (2nd edition)? Any important divergences or novelties?

What basic setup(s) does he give against the 'boring' Nf3 + c3 + Bd3 line?


The book isn't a complete repertoire : Fernandez has analyzed lines he considered critical and added a bunch of Pirc coverage as alternatives against 4.f4 and 4.Be3 (and also as a way to deal with the 3.Nf3+4.Be3 move-order)

You can find the Table of contents here : https://thinkerspublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/FINAL-TEASER-MODERN-DE...

As for your other questions :

- he recommends systems with ...h5 against Be3+h4 set-up,
- I don't know how the coverage compares with Tiger's 2nd book (I don't have it), but I believe Fernandez is very up-to-date as his book features a lot of original analyis and he references white repertoires in his bibliography.
- against the solid c3+Bd3 system, he suggests a Benoni-like idea with an early ...c5
« Last Edit: 03/04/21 at 22:41:42 by hicetnunc »  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Modernized Modern by Fernandez
Reply #39 - 03/04/21 at 14:03:10
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Can someone who has the book tell us a bit about what's actually in it, especially in the main/critical lines? The publisher's info is utterly useless here.

In the 3 Nc3 d6 4 Be3 a6 line, does he cover ...h5 and ...h6 in response to h2-h4, or only one of these?

How does his Austrian coverage compare with Tiger's (2nd edition)? Any important divergences or novelties?

What basic setup(s) does he give against the 'boring' Nf3 + c3 + Bd3 line?
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Modernized Modern by Fernandez
Reply #38 - 02/20/21 at 22:11:23
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Hi.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/20/21 at 19:53:14:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Be3 c6 4.Qd2 d5 5.e5 c5 (the Hiarcs book gives only "5...f6?!") 6.dxc5 Bxe5 7.Nc3 White has no center, but active pieces, and next move 8.Nf3 is more of the same. I would not at all mind being white here. 3.Be3!?, worth considering!

Certainly worth considering.
To my mind you can also keep it in reserve for when 2...d6 gets played. That is if 2...Bg7 3.Be3 d5 worries or 3...c6. In the later line I think 4.Qd2 d5 5.e5 c5!? 6.c3 is also very interesting. White's Be3+Qd2 is not ideal but black will have spent two tempos if he goes c5 after going c6 earlier and he has placed the bishop on g7 early, which is not the most purposeful use of development time. 5...f6 6.f4 seems very pleasant for white btw.

Edit: black also has
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Be3 c6 4.Qd2 Nf6
4...d6 5.c4!? is an irregular KID where black has played c6 early.
5.Nc3 d6
5...0-0 6.e5! Ng4 7.Bg5 is very well liked by Leela. It thinks black should play 7...f6 but then simply 8.exf6 and black can't play the desirable 8...exf6? 9.Bf4 d5? because 10.h3 and white will win with precise play.

But this alllows the threatening 6.Bh6, which has been discussed a lot on the Pirc forum.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Modernized Modern by Fernandez
Reply #37 - 02/20/21 at 19:53:14
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1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Be3 c6 4.Qd2 d5 5.e5 c5 (the Hiarcs book gives only "5...f6?!") 6.dxc5 Bxe5 7.Nc3 White has no center, but active pieces, and next move 8.Nf3 is more of the same. I would not at all mind being white here. 3.Be3!?, worth considering!
  
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Re: Modernized Modern by Fernandez
Reply #36 - 02/20/21 at 11:37:17
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As the Argentinean Attack (4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 O-O 6.f3) is one of the very few openings I have remained true for decades I've looked at 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Be3 as well. The answer that bothers me most is not 3...d5 (simply 4.exd5) but 3...c6. Black can be flexible too! Now 4.c4 is met with d5! and 4.Nc3 just transposes to 3.Nc3 lines. So 4.Qd2 remains and I'm not happy (as White) with both d5 5.e5 c5 and 5.f3 dxe4 6.fxe4 e5. Perhaps d5 5.f3 dxe4 6.Nc3 which is obscure even for the BDG.
Objectively I don't see the pros of 3.Be3 compared to 3.Nc3 and evt. 4.Be3.
  

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Re: Modernized Modern by Fernandez
Reply #35 - 02/20/21 at 10:12:47
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Hi.

1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Be3 Does not appear covered in the book indeed.

It's a very interesting move because white can try 3...d6 4.Qd2 or 4.f3 with no guarantee of a quick Nc3. Tiger's 3...d5 comes to mind to avoid this weirdness. It would have been interesting to see something on the line. That's even if theory hasn't noved on much since Tiger 2.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Modernized Modern by Fernandez
Reply #34 - 02/19/21 at 22:38:59
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With the same caveat about how hard it is to work out which lines are covered, it looks to me as if Fernandez pretty much ignores everything except 2.d4 followed by 3.Nc3, 3.Nf3 or 3.c4. I don't mind the absence of the Closed Sicilian and the Grand Prix Attack, but 3.Be3 would be a surprising omission. Tiger devotes two games to it.
  
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Re: Modernized Modern by Fernandez
Reply #33 - 02/11/21 at 17:36:15
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Hi.

On the topic of errata. On page 211 there is a short explanation that black should play:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.c3!? Nf6 5.Bd3 0-0 6.0-0 c5 7.h3 Nc6 8.Re1 cxd4 transposing to earlier but this reaches a position that black is dissuaded from playing. It's a small shortcoming though and the only one I found so I am not to displeased in that regard.

I somewhat think this could be a line to look at closely though because white can also go
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.c3!? Nf6 5.Bd3 0-0 6.0-0 c5 7.h3 Nc6 8.d5 Na5
and something other than 9.c4 (which is met by 9...e5). E.g.
9.Re1!? b6 10.Bd2
10.Bf4!? planning dxe6 is also interesting
10...e5 11.b4 Nb7 12.a4
And black is obviously solid but white has somewhat started his play on the queenside and not having developed many pieces he is also relatively flexible.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Modernized Modern by Fernandez
Reply #32 - 02/11/21 at 17:09:47
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Hi.

Yes. I cannot find anything about it either.

Without consulting other sources except the database. After:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Bg5 a6
White actually scores quite well in corr but has a small negative score otb. It doesn't exactly look killer though.
5.Nf3 b5 6.Bd3
6.a4 b4 7.Nd5 h6! 8.Bd2 a5 9.c3 e6 10.Nf4 Nf6 and it doesn't look to me like white is getting anywhere special. Black is quite solid.
6.e5!? Bb7 7.Qe2 could be interesting but not very forcing and black should have a couple of ways to a playable game.
6...Bg4
Most active. Black should basically be able to get his pieces to good squares now. An example line would be
7.Ne2 c5 8.c3 Nc6 9.a4 b4 10.O-O bxc3 11.bxc3 Nf6 12.e5 Nh5
With OK counterplay.

There are other 5th moves but I can't find a scenario where black does not benefit from being able to play h7-h6 at some point.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Modernized Modern by Fernandez
Reply #31 - 02/11/21 at 04:41:41
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Yes, I just checked. Absent.

The lack of Bg5 does seem an odd omission. Arguably rather less challenging than against the Pirc, sure, but deserving of discussion.

Something that the author should have included, and that the publishing house should have caught.
  
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