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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The line that killed the Slav (Read 1790 times)
Jack Hughes
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Re: The line that killed the Slav
Reply #36 - 03/26/20 at 22:33:03
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mn wrote on 03/26/20 at 15:53:27:
Last time I looked at the Slav (which was a while ago), a line that Avrukh recommended, IIRC, with ...f6 and ...g5 seemed okay. Is there a refutation to that line nowadays?

Considering that 11... g5 has fallen out of fashion and that 12. Nxe5 gxf4 13. Nxd7 is perhaps the main reason why I find it very hard to believe that the exact same position with the moves ...f6 and 0-0 inserted (which arises after the mainline of 11... f6 12. 0-0 g5 13. Nxe5 gxf4 14. Nxd7) could be an attractive option for black. If you click through the lines it seems like pretty much every comparison of the two lines is in white's favour: after 14. Nxd7 black cannot reply with 14... 0-0-0 because white's king there are no checks on the d-file, after 14. Nxd7 Qxd7 white gets the extra options of 15. Qc1 and especially 15. a5 that would work well for black without 11... f6 12. 0-0 inserted, and even if white just treats the positions identically with 15. Qxd7+ it is not so obvious that black has really benefited (amusingly enough it seems that both sides would be better off without their free moves, since the white king is better placed on the queenside and the pawn on f6 restricts the scope of the dark-squared bishop that is likely to find itself e7). In all these lines it seems like black is just hoping to hold some depressing endgame with the bishop pair as compensation for the pawn, and ICCF practice both in this line and in similar endgames arising after 11... g5 suggest that even with engine assistance the draw won't be so easy to get.
  
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mn
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Re: The line that killed the Slav
Reply #35 - 03/26/20 at 15:53:27
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Last time I looked at the Slav (which was a while ago), a line that Avrukh recommended, IIRC, with ...f6 and ...g5 seemed okay. Is there a refutation to that line nowadays?
  
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Jack Hughes
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Re: The line that killed the Slav
Reply #34 - 03/25/20 at 10:50:30
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In regards to the evaluation of the 5... Bf5 6. Ne5 Classical Slav lines other than this Caruana 9... e5 I think people might be interested to check out two recent editions of Jan's Opening Clinic (23 Season Finale, 10:05; 25 Part 5, 25:02). In both of those editions Gustafsson agrees that the line with 6... Nbd7 7. Nxc4 Nb6 is objectively black's best option, but that from a practical perspective he thinks white gets a lot of options and there isn't much upside for black. On the Morozevich line (6.. Nbd7 7. Nxc4 Qc7 8. g3 e5 9. dxe5 Nxe5 10. Bf4 Nfd7 11. Bg2 g5) he suggests that accepting the sacrifice with 12. Nxe5 is the problem, which is certainly consistent with the statistics from recent high level OTB and correspondence practice, although black shouldn't be too thrilled with the traditional 12. Ne3 either. As regards the famous piece sacrifice line that is the topic of this thread Gustafsson agrees that 8. Nxc4 0-0 9. Kf2 is the critical line, but of course does not mention Caruana's 9... e5. While I agree that this 9. Kf2 looks a critical test I am quite curious to hear what people's thoughts are on the traditional 8. e4, where everyone seems to be assuming that black is fine but white is doing quite well in my databases and there is no obvious concrete solution for black. (Certainly not obvious to me anyway). The fact that Giri went for 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 against Caruana suggests that he wasn't too optimistic about white's chances against Caruana's line, which is definitely worth taking note of considering his abilities as an opening analyst.
Thanks in particular to Paul Cumbers for sharing his analysis. I had line 2 as leading to an advantage for white in my files but my engines weren't running at anywhere near that depth, so finding out that Stockfish eventually comes around to 0.00 is quite interesting. I would note that at least at low depths on my hardware LC0 is claiming a white edge after both 28. Qe1 and 28. Rd1, so I'm not so sure about the claim that Stockfish is the only engine claiming a white advantage.
  
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Re: The line that killed the Slav
Reply #33 - 03/24/20 at 20:36:19
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mn wrote on 03/24/20 at 16:20:31:
I'm not really up to date on Slav theory, but what's supposed to be the problem with the ...Nbd7/...Qc7/...e5 lines?

And the ...Nbd7/...Nb6 line?
  
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Re: The line that killed the Slav
Reply #32 - 03/24/20 at 19:56:05
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stockhausen wrote on 03/24/20 at 16:43:16:
MNb wrote on 03/22/20 at 18:24:31:
trw wrote on 03/22/20 at 15:33:19:
Believe me,

No, I don't or you would have provided some lines.


I understand trw is being a bit reticent in revealing information, but I read the article you gave and nowhere does FM Monokroussos repair the line - he states his engine wasn't convinced after 18.Qc1 and gives a line he evaluated as leading to a white advantage.

But Monokroussos doesn't consider Aagaard's earlier improvement for Black, i.e. 17...Rc8! 18.Ne3 and only then 18...Ng6 (Caruana played 17...Ng6 straight away). Aagaard suggests that Caruana simply mis-remembered his preparation, i.e. he forgot to move the rook move before continuing with ...Ng6. This sounds entirely plausible to me. Aagaard's main line then continues to a position where the engines - apart from Stockfish - see no advantage for White (see my earlier post). I found that Stockfish too says it's equal if you let it think for long enough.
  
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Re: The line that killed the Slav
Reply #31 - 03/24/20 at 16:43:16
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MNb wrote on 03/22/20 at 18:24:31:
trw wrote on 03/22/20 at 15:33:19:
Believe me,

No, I don't or you would have provided some lines.


I understand trw is being a bit reticent in revealing information, but I read the article you gave and nowhere does FM Monokroussos repair the line - he states his engine wasn't convinced after 18.Qc1 and gives a line he evaluated as leading to a white advantage.
  
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mn
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Re: The line that killed the Slav
Reply #30 - 03/24/20 at 16:20:31
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I'm not really up to date on Slav theory, but what's supposed to be the problem with the ...Nbd7/...Qc7/...e5 lines?
  
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Paul Cumbers
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Re: The line that killed the Slav
Reply #29 - 03/24/20 at 00:12:49
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trw wrote on 03/22/20 at 15:33:19:
MNb wrote on 03/22/20 at 08:21:28:
According to FM Monokroussos GM Caruana lost hiw way when he started deep diving.

http://www.thechessmind.net/blog/2020/3/21/candidates-round-3-ding-beats-caruana...

"No preparation" looks too harsh, but perfect it apparently was not. At the other hand FM Monokroussos repaired the line.



I don't see how he repaired the line. BTW, Aagaard also failed to repair the line. So far no preparation and pure bluff seems to be what it was.

https://new.uschess.org/news/aagaard-candidates-round-3/

Believe me, no one wants this line repaired more than me. I would like to go back to playing the Slav.

Aagaard's critical line is:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 dxc4 5.a4 Bf5 6.Ne5 e6 7.f3 Bb4 8.Nxc4 O-O 9.Kf2 e5 10.Nxe5 Bc2 11.Qd2 c5 12.d5 Bb3 13.e4 Re8 14.Qf4 c4 15.Nxc4 Nbd7 16.Be3 Nf8 17.Bd4 Rc8 18.Ne3 Ng6 19.Qg3 Bxc3 20.bxc3 Rxe4 21.Kg1 Rh4 22.d6 Rf4 23.Rb1 Be6

Here, he says the only engine that gives White any advantage is Stockfish. So I let Stockfish 11 think for a while, and at 59 ply the evaluation did finally climb down to "equal". The top two output lines are below (other moves are no better than 0.00):

1) 24.Rd1 Bb3 25.Re1 Qxd6 26.Nf5 Qc7 27.Bxf6 Qc5+ 28.Bd4 Qxf5 29.Re3 Qd7 30.h4 h5 31.Qf2 Qxa4 32.Bd3 Bd5 33.Bxg6 fxg6 34.Re5 Rf5 35.Rxf5 gxf5 36.Qd2 Qd7 37.Bxa7 b5 38.Bf2 Be6 39.Qe1 Rc4 40.Kh2 Qd6+ 41.Kh3 Kf7 42.Qa1 Ra4 43.Rd1 Qc7 44.Qc1 b4 45.cxb4 Qxc1 46.Rxc1 Rxb4 47.Ra1 Kf6 48.Bc5 f4+ 49.Kh2 Rc4 50.Bb6 Bd5 51.Rd1 Bc6 52.Kh3 Ba4 53.Rd6+ Ke7 54.Rd5 Kf7 55.Rxh5 Bd7+ 56.Kh2 g6 57.Ra5 Rc2 {0.14/59}

2) 24.Rb5 a6 25.Rxb7 h5 26.h4 Qxd6 27.Rb6 Qa3 28.Qe1 a5 29.Nc2 Qa2 30.Rh2 Bd7 31.Ne3 Qxa4 32.Qd2 Be6 33.Be2 Qa1+ 34.Qd1 Qxd1+ 35.Bxd1 Rxh4 36.Rxh4 Nxh4 37.Bc2 Nd5 38.Nxd5 Bxd5 39.Kf2 a4 40.Bxa4 Be6 41.g4 hxg4 42.fxg4 Ng6 43.Kg3 Ne7 44.Kf3 Bd5+ 45.Kf4 Be6 46.Kg3 Nd5 47.Rc6 Rxc6 48.Bxc6 g5 49.Bb5 f5 50.gxf5 Bxf5 51.c4 Nf4 52.Be3 Ne6 53.Bxg5 Nxg5 54.Kf4 Be6 55.Kxg5 Bxc4 56.Bxc4+ Kf8 57.Kf6 Ke8 58.Ba6 Kd7 59.Kg7 Kc7 60.Kg6 {0.13/59}

To me, the buried rook on h1 (after 23...Be6) looks problematic, so I'm not surprised that the engines can't find an advantage for White.
I think 9...e5 deserves more outings! Smiley
  
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Re: The line that killed the Slav
Reply #28 - 03/23/20 at 20:04:44
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Hello.

I imagine black has x-number of realistic lines after and possibly also before 9.Kf2, one being Caruana's. They might all be objectively difficult for black, they might not.

Do you want the discussion to be about why the lines should be deemed problematic or do you just want to say: I looked at (presumably) a lot of lines. Overall it didn't look good at all so watch out Slav players. It's sort of easier for others to reply in a constructive manner if things like this are clear.

Have a nice evening
  
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Re: The line that killed the Slav
Reply #27 - 03/22/20 at 23:11:42
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MNb wrote on 03/22/20 at 18:24:31:
trw wrote on 03/22/20 at 15:33:19:
Believe me,

No, I don't or you would have provided some lines.



I don't have a way to repair the line. White's play seems like a win to me. Again, if I could find a way I wouldn't have made this thread.
  
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MNb
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Re: The line that killed the Slav
Reply #26 - 03/22/20 at 18:24:31
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trw wrote on 03/22/20 at 15:33:19:
Believe me,

No, I don't or you would have provided some lines.
  

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Re: The line that killed the Slav
Reply #25 - 03/22/20 at 15:33:19
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MNb wrote on 03/22/20 at 08:21:28:
According to FM Monokroussos GM Caruana lost hiw way when he started deep diving.

http://www.thechessmind.net/blog/2020/3/21/candidates-round-3-ding-beats-caruana...

"No preparation" looks too harsh, but perfect it apparently was not. At the other hand FM Monokroussos repaired the line.



I don't see how he repaired the line. BTW, Aagaard also failed to repair the line. So far no preparation and pure bluff seems to be what it was.

https://new.uschess.org/news/aagaard-candidates-round-3/

Believe me, no one wants this line repaired more than me. I would like to go back to playing the Slav.
  
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MNb
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Re: The line that killed the Slav
Reply #24 - 03/22/20 at 08:21:28
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According to FM Monokroussos GM Caruana lost hiw way when he started deep diving.

http://www.thechessmind.net/blog/2020/3/21/candidates-round-3-ding-beats-caruana...

"No preparation" looks too harsh, but perfect it apparently was not. At the other hand FM Monokroussos repaired the line.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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Re: The line that killed the Slav
Reply #23 - 03/21/20 at 23:58:23
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I think the speculation that he had good preparation but mixed up the move order is reasonable. His sin would then be risking such errors in order to try to beat Ding psychologically, kicking him when he was down--in my view, a sign of fear, looking for an easy way out against his Angstgegner.
  
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Re: The line that killed the Slav
Reply #22 - 03/20/20 at 16:36:50
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"9.Kf2 was given a ! by Vigorito (I can't find the source, maybe ChessPublishing?)."

here on chesspublishing in the game Lashkin-Miron and also in New in Chess Yearbook 132  Smiley
  
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