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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) KIA rep (Read 15453 times)
Stigma
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #20 - 05/19/20 at 03:14:20
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Heuristic wrote on 05/18/20 at 21:25:51:
1.e4 makes no sense. Black can play the scandinavian.

KIA has a very solid reputation. But you really need to be a patient and strong player, if you want to beat strong players.

Basing a repertoire on 1.d4 and 2.c4 makes no sense. Black can play 1.d4 c5. /s
  

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Heuristic
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #19 - 05/18/20 at 21:25:51
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Mtal wrote on 04/13/20 at 05:50:22:
Hi all, I been looking for a backup rep, and was thinking of the KIA. First would it be better to play e4 or nf3 on move one and why? Are there any lines that are good for black that are really good for black that I would have to be aware of? Any thing else I should keep in mind about it? Any good book or video reconmendations? Thanks.


1.e4 makes no sense. Black can play the scandinavian.

KIA has a very solid reputation. But you really need to be a patient and strong player, if you want to beat strong players.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #18 - 04/17/20 at 21:46:59
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Mtal wrote on 04/13/20 at 05:50:22:
Hi all, I been looking for a backup rep, and was thinking of the KIA. First would it be better to play e4 or nf3 on move one and why? Are there any lines that are good for black that are really good for black that I would have to be aware of? Any thing else I should keep in mind about it? Any good book or video reconmendations? Thanks.


These may interest you https://thechessworld.com/supercharge/kings-indian-attack-mastermind/
https://www.chessable.com/short-sweet-the-kings-indian-attack/course/27065/
https://www.chessable.com/reign-supreme-the-kings-indian-attack/course/26170/

Good luck and stay safe.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #17 - 04/17/20 at 17:54:52
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Offhand I wondered if that was ever played by Duncan Suttles.

Yes, that would fit!
  
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kylemeister
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #16 - 04/17/20 at 17:45:27
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Michael Ayton wrote on 04/17/20 at 17:35:12:
Mr Movsziszian plays the flexible 4 Nd2 here, and I noticed that in the position reached after 4 …Nf6 (not the only move of course) 5 e4 e6, he’s tried 6 Nh3, which I’m not sure I’ve seen before!

Offhand I wondered if that was ever played by Duncan Suttles.  (Bingo.)
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #15 - 04/17/20 at 17:35:12
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It might be another reason to start with 1.g3 as c5 2.Bg2 Nc6 3.d3 e6/g6 allows White to try the Polar Bear (4.f4) or the Big Clamp (4.e4).

A great idea from MNb, promoter indeed of numerous incisive ideas! I play the Reti and occasionally the (Botvinnik) English, but I don't always feel wild about the options after 1 Nf3 c5 (only a matter of taste of course), so starting with 1 g3 and hoping for a Clamp after 1 …c5 certainly appeals.

Of course, White has to be prepared for various alternatives, including 1 g3 c5 2 Bg2 Nc6 3 d3 d5, when I guess the choice is between a KIA and a Reversed Leningrad (which I imagine is neither better nor worse for White than many/most other ‘Polar’ lines). Mr Movsziszian plays the flexible 4 Nd2 here, and I noticed that in the position reached after 4 …Nf6 (not the only move of course) 5 e4 e6, he’s tried 6 Nh3, which I’m not sure I’ve seen before! This seems uncommon, but looks to score well even if the sample is a small one … But then, is it any good? And meanwhile, if White does try a KIA (via any move order) can he avoid the lines that don’t appeal to MNb (or others)? Maybe White’s chances are better in the Rev. Leningrad? – I’ve never played it so have no view.  Anyway, thanks for this suggestion, MNb, scourge (in another Forum thread), I notice, of the Closed Sicilian!
  
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alyechin
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #14 - 04/16/20 at 10:49:29
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VGA wrote on 04/15/20 at 23:25:20:
I think McDonald doesn't even cover 1.e4 ....e5 in his book.


You can play the Glek 4Knights (4.g3) -> its equal, as Petrosian said: "White is always equal and Black is always worse."
  
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VGA
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #13 - 04/15/20 at 23:25:20
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Neil McDonald's book is great, I think half the games/chapters start with 1.Nf3. The KIA makes sense against the French and the Sicilian but it is toothless against e4-e5, I think McDonald doesn't even cover 1.e4 ....e5 in his book.

So if you are an e4 player you need to pair it with an e4-e5 opening or start your games with 1.Nf3 and allow all kinds of transpositions and ... novel opening lines Cheesy

Personally, I ran away from the KIA since I realised how easy it is for French players to play e5 in response to g3. If I'm going to invest time to learn an opening, it must be worth it and this just isn't.
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #12 - 04/15/20 at 20:32:06
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@Mtal

Maybe 1.e4 or 1.Nf3 depends on your opening choices so far. I came into playing the KIA for 3 or 4 years via having no prepared answer against the Sicilian and the French.

Emms Starting out was great for me. But I haven't read anything else.

You get an equal game and if black is prepared to defend his king and take room at the queenside his results are a little better than average. So if you can live with this and you have no experience with fianchetto plus pawn advance at your kingside you will have some fun and learn.

Meanwhile I have my lines against the Sicilian and the French. With black the experience from the white side in KIA games has made my life much easier in those games.  Smiley

P.S.: The KIA was the first opening in my 50 years of chess I didn't drop for the results. It was the simply plan for black leading to equality and white having no escape in case of a positonal mistake to avoid pressure for 30 moves or so.
  

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Re: KIA rep
Reply #11 - 04/15/20 at 09:12:51
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Mtal wrote on 04/13/20 at 05:50:22:
Any good book or video reconmendations? Thanks.

I liked Starting Out: King's Indian Attack by John Emms very much. He mentions both 1.Nf3 and 1.e4 to reach the KIA.
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #10 - 04/15/20 at 06:39:17
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 04/15/20 at 01:57:28:
5...g6 vs the KIA must be solid. But white can just play Nbd2 and e4 with typical King's Indian play.

Unfortunately statistics are depressing for White after 6.Nbd2 Bg7 7.O-O O-O. Making good use of the extra tempo seems to require quite some work.


an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 04/15/20 at 01:57:28:
More annoying is the system with ...e7-e6 and ...Ng8-e7. For example something like 1.Nf3 c5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Bg2 g6 4.O-O Bg7 5.d3 d5 6.Nbd2 e6 7.e4 Nge7 is not only equal, but difficult to generate play against.

Agreed, I played this as Black via the French (1.e4 e6 2.d3 c5 etc.) except that I kept the pawn on d7 even longer. It might be another reason to start with 1.g3 as c5 2.Bg2 Nc6 3.d3 e6/g6 allows White to try the Polar Bear (4.f4) or the Big Clamp (4.e4). So thanks for giving me the opportunity to repeat my recommendation.
  

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Re: KIA rep
Reply #9 - 04/15/20 at 02:24:21
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@Mtal - If you are going to concentrate on the KIA, then 1.Nf3 is by far the simplest way to start. Just be aware that you might need to play d2-d4 sometimes. For example in the line MNb gave, 1.Nf3 d6 2.g3 f5 3.Bg2 Nf6 4.O-O e5, white really should be playing d2-d4 at some point, most likely at move two. One of the strengths of 1.Nf3 is flexibility: white retains all the options with c, d, and e-pawns. But if white inflexibly plays only for d2-d3 and e2-e4, black can easily choose a setup where that's not great.

If on the other hand you have hopes of being a main-line 1.e4 player someday, then starting with 1.e4 to reach the KIA is a great move order. There are a few sharp responses you would have to learn right away, e.g. 1.e4 d5, and 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5. But you shouldn't mind that, because your plan is to be a main-line 1.e4 player, and you would need something against those anyway. Against most everything else, you can close your eyes and play the KIA. Later you can pick and choose which main lines to study first, and slowly replace your KIA one opening at a time.
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #8 - 04/15/20 at 01:57:28
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MNb wrote on 04/14/20 at 21:34:14:
That game started with 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 c5 4.O-O Nc6 5.d3 e5 6.Qe1 Be7 7.e4 d4 8.a4 O-O 9.Na3. Note that the Mar del Plata doesn't work - after 6.Nc3 Be7 7.e4 d4 8.Nce2 thie knight is misplaced exactly because Black hasn't castled yet. Perhaps 7.Na3 Be7 8.e4 d4 9.Nc4 ao PIket-Timman, NEDch 1996, wins a tempo for the attack compared to Kramnik's play.
I wonder what White's best option is against 5...g6 and 6...Bg7.

Kramnik must have been programmed to play the KIA, otherwise 5.d4 seems more in his style. Timman's move order avoided this. 1.Nf3 c5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Bg2 Nf6 4.O-O e5 5.d3 d5 6.Na3 Be7 7.e4 d4 etc.

Kramnik - van Foreest, Wijk aan Zee 2019
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1943771

Piket - Timman, Amsterdam 1996
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1143398

5...g6 vs the KIA must be solid. But white can just play Nbd2 and e4 with typical King's Indian play. More annoying is the system with ...e7-e6 and ...Ng8-e7. For example something like 1.Nf3 c5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Bg2 g6 4.O-O Bg7 5.d3 d5 6.Nbd2 e6 7.e4 Nge7 is not only equal, but difficult to generate play against. I got similar once as white and didn't know what to do. Luckily for me my opponent soon played ...d5xe4, and then I did know what to do!. Compare the same setup reversed in some Botvinnik - Smyslov games, e.g.

Botvinnik - Smyslov, match (16) 1954
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1032325
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #7 - 04/14/20 at 23:38:24
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MNb wrote on 04/14/20 at 21:34:14:
Perhaps 7.Na3 Be7 8.e4 d4 9.Nc4 ao PIket-Timman, NEDch 1996, wins a tempo for the attack compared to Kramnik's play.

Incidentally that game was annotated by Piket in Chess Informant (and cited in ECO).  Basically he thought it should have been unclear or equal until 8...Qc7 9.a4 Be6 10.Ne1 Nd7 11.f4 f6"?" 12.Bh3"!".
  
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MNb
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #6 - 04/14/20 at 21:34:14
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That game started with 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 c5 4.O-O Nc6 5.d3 e5 6.Qe1 Be7 7.e4 d4 8.a4 O-O 9.Na3. Note that the Mar del Plata doesn't work - after 6.Nc3 Be7 7.e4 d4 8.Nce2 thie knight is misplaced exactly because Black hasn't castled yet. Perhaps 7.Na3 Be7 8.e4 d4 9.Nc4 ao PIket-Timman, NEDch 1996, wins a tempo for the attack compared to Kramnik's play.
I wonder what White's best option is against 5...g6 and 6...Bg7.
  

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