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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) KIA rep (Read 6993 times)
Stigma
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #50 - 11/30/20 at 04:18:03
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In this time of Black Week and Cyber Monday deals I am tempted by the video series "King's Indian Attack Mastermind" by GM Stopa, mentioned by TopNotch earlier in this thread. Has anyone got an opinion of it? I haven't found any reviews online.

TopNotch wrote on 04/17/20 at 21:46:59:

There's a free intro video where Stopa says the series is mostly for club players between 1400 and 1900, but stronger players could also find something of interest. Well, I am quite a bit stronger than that, so I wonder how useful it is for someone who has a few books on the KIA and access to databases.

By the looks of the table of contents around half of the videos are devoted to the Reversed KID. This is a big reason for my interest since I have reached that setup many times online, but not played it particularly well - it's as if the extra tempo hurts me...
  

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Seeley
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #49 - 05/21/20 at 09:31:11
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IsaVulpes wrote on 05/21/20 at 00:18:10:
2000 FIDE you already don't attain without some amount of effort, but he got to it in 1 year(?)

I agree broadly with everything you say in your post upthread, but as far as I can make out, his 2000 Elo claim was for a tournament rating as opposed to a published one based on a year's worth of games. I think the post in which he says this has now been deleted, but I quoted a part of that post earlier in this thread in which he says 'I got a 2006 elo rating in my first Fide event'. For him to manage that over the course of five or six games I can believe. Of course, he might well have said something different elsewhere.
  
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Stigma
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #48 - 05/21/20 at 07:33:52
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Heuristic wrote on 05/19/20 at 11:43:51:
Stigma wrote on 05/19/20 at 11:33:57:
OK, enough word games. I think you understood what I meant: The KIA leads to more interesting play against some defences than against others.


Do you really think the main line (c6, bg4) offers sharp play? If the main line is slow, strategical, play than the opening should be characterised as such. The equivalent line with colours reversed would be a London system with bg5... not exactly unbalanced and interesting...


I've tried to stay away from this thread, but this nonsensical reply irks me too much.

"If the main line is slow, strategical, play than the opening should be characterised as such" - this makes no sense. Nobody rated above 1800 thinks like that. You have to look at the actual position on the board in the specific variation and position you reach and assess it on its own merits, no matter what someone thinks about the main line of the opening!

If I reach a sharp position out of a Symmetrical English (1.c4 c5), would it make sense to protest that I can't call the opening sharp because the Symmetrical English usually leads to calm, strategic games? Of course not. Yet that's essentially what you tried to do here.

It was in fact the KIA vs Sicilian I called relatively speaking unbalanced compared to the KIA against some other defences to 1.e4, not the 1.Nf3 KIA main line with Bg4. (Yet even the latter, while usually calm and strategic, is far from being the least unbalanced opening in chess.)

P. S.: it's not a "London system with Bg5". The Torre involves Bg5, the London Bf4. I believe the Black "London" setup with d5/c6/Nf6/Bf5 is also (and maybe more correctly) called the New York system.
  

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Re: KIA rep
Reply #47 - 05/21/20 at 06:43:50
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Whether 2000 or 2400, Heuristic obviously is not familiar with IM Siliman's theory of imbalancies. That or he misunderstands. Even for me it's easy to point out several imbalancies in that Fischer-Spassky game as early as move 8 .... What he means with "but it was not unbalanced" is beyond me, I'm afraid.
  

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Re: KIA rep
Reply #46 - 05/21/20 at 05:22:15
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kylemeister wrote on 05/19/20 at 15:32:30:
Heuristic wrote on 05/19/20 at 11:27:57:

When speaking of the KIA it would be good to cite games which are actually KIAs.  That's a Closed Sicilian. 



Funnily this is actually described as a KIA at chessgames.com. And if you have no knowledge of opening theory and no chess culture of your own it´s easy to be mistaken by that.
  
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IsaVulpes
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #45 - 05/21/20 at 00:18:10
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Seeley wrote on 05/19/20 at 20:21:07:
Oh yes, I absolutely agree with you, I don't think he's making up his 2000 rating.

Personally, I doubt the veracity of any and all of his claims. Just reads like a horde of nonsense.

2000 FIDE you already don't attain without some amount of effort, but he got to it in 1 year(?), and doesn't even pat himself on the back for it, but pulls out some random story of his grandpa drawing Karpov in a simul, which clearly gave him chess genes(??).
His first rating was 2000, but when he was a 1600 he already beat 1800s, and he outplayed this random dude and whatever else, always at the same time sounding really proud of his achievements, and making them out to be easypeasy.
Then he quit OTB chess to focus on his university studies, but instead of moving towards online chess, he decided that "mere humans" would not be interesting enough to play against anymore, and instead went on to spend his freetime.. playing long time control games vs 25 year old engines. Bonus points for finding "no satisfaction" in beating humans, but fighting a stone aged engine, which he crushes in every game, instead. That's gotta be satisfying alright..
Somewhere in this process he turned completely delusional, and not just calls himself 2400 (on the back of literally nothing), but doubles down by saying "my rating is higher than yours" (lmao), and triples down with claims like "Mamedyarov is positionally a 2400". Thus coming full circle; the random 2000 with like 10 rated games, who played 50 games with Fritz 2 to train chess, is positionally on a level with Mamedyarov. Because.
And now, after all of that, he suddenly finds this forum, and writes 100 messages a day in every thread, half of them complete nonsense, the other half at best misguided, desperately seeking validation for his great wins against the engine, while talking down on any actual chess players, and making one ludicrous claim after another.

Normally I would assume this is an overload of Dunning-Kruger, but 2000 FIDE is a bit too respectable of a level to be that moronic. Generally at that level you have faced the odd 2200-2300-2400, and noticed there's a gap. You've also noticed that there is absolutely no way for you to measure the "positional skill" of a Top10 player, let alone in rating points..
Either he is a savant, truly talented at chess, and barely functional at anything else; or 80% of this is made up.

Wouldn't at all be surprised if the vs. Engine games he keeps plastering in here were all played with engine assistance (or with takebacks); something which he can't do online, so that'd be a straightforward explanation as to why one would continuously play a shitty machine, rather than actual people. Haven't checked any of them out though, and given he is playing vs a 25 year old Fritz version, who knows what he might be using for assistance anyway (would likely not lead to a huge Stockfish matchup % if he used Fritz 4 to beat Fritz 2)
  
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mn
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #44 - 05/19/20 at 20:23:49
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Ah, gotcha. Agreed for sure then.
  
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Seeley
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #43 - 05/19/20 at 20:21:07
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mn wrote on 05/19/20 at 19:51:28:
Obviously I seriously doubt the 2400 strength claim, but in fairness, the 2000 elo thing seems plausible to me

Oh yes, I absolutely agree with you, I don't think he's making up his 2000 rating. Apologies for not making that clear. His grossly inflated sense of his current ability, though, perhaps explains how he can be so dismissive about other people's ideas here and also about the abilities of very strong professional players.
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #42 - 05/19/20 at 19:51:28
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1. 1 e4 e5 2 d3 Nc6 and I already prefer Black.

2. Obviously I seriously doubt the 2400 strength claim, but in fairness, the 2000 elo thing seems plausible to me, if he really hasn’t played chess seriously in years, and is therefore out of touch with opening theory and naming conventions and things like that.
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #41 - 05/19/20 at 18:41:33
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TopNotch wrote on 05/19/20 at 18:19:58:
Makes one seriously question what his level actually is

He claims to be 2400, though that's his own assessment rather than an actual FIDE rating, and it seems extremely unlikely. I'm not very good at putting in links, but if you click on 'Heuristic wrote' (below), it'll take you to the relevant bit of that thread so you can see it in context if you can be bothered to do so.

Heuristic wrote on 05/19/20 at 14:56:15:
I got a 2006 elo rating in my first Fide event but I "retired" after that for university studies. I'm at least 2400 these days.

I challenged this and he's so far failed to reply, which is unlike him.

(edit: to be clear, I challenged the bit about him being 'at least 2400' now, not the claim regarding the 2006 rating in an event at some point in the past)
« Last Edit: 05/19/20 at 22:04:59 by Seeley »  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #40 - 05/19/20 at 18:19:58
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kylemeister wrote on 05/19/20 at 15:32:30:
Heuristic wrote on 05/19/20 at 11:27:57:

When speaking of the KIA it would be good to cite games which are actually KIAs.  That's a Closed Sicilian. 


Makes one seriously question what his level actually is, he is often imprecise and sloppy like this. In another thread he did the same thing, I gave an example in the Classical K.I.D to refute some nonsense he was spouting about those positions, and his counter was to switch to some line of the Makagonov which is a completely different system with its own subtleties and nuances. He constantly meanders all over the place like that, flitting from one disjointed and uncompelling argument to the next, often using belittling language in his post when describing the play of other players especially titled ones, as if he or most likely his engine, has some special knowledge that the rest of the Chess world does not.

  

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Re: KIA rep
Reply #39 - 05/19/20 at 15:32:30
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Heuristic wrote on 05/19/20 at 11:27:57:

When speaking of the KIA it would be good to cite games which are actually KIAs.  That's a Closed Sicilian. 

  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #38 - 05/19/20 at 12:08:18
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mn wrote on 05/19/20 at 09:21:29:
Well, to be fair, is there any particular reason why you can't play the KIA against the Pirc/Modern? I mean it may feel a bit strange to play something like 1 e4 g6 2 Nf3 Bg7 3 d3 d6 4 g3 Nf6 5 Bg2 0-0 6 0-0, but if you're a diehard KIA player, is there any particular reason why you can't do it? 


There's no reason why you can't do it, but you are playing passively against a sub optimal structure from black (the Pirc defense). White is quite a bit better in main line Pirc, just as in the Kings Indian, and you are giving away that edge by playing KIA structures against both of them.
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #37 - 05/19/20 at 11:43:51
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Stigma wrote on 05/19/20 at 11:33:57:
OK, enough word games. I think you understood what I meant: The KIA leads to more interesting play against some defences than against others.


Do you really think the main line (c6, bg4) offers sharp play? If the main line is slow, strategical, play than the opening should be characterised as such. The equivalent line with colours reversed would be a London system with bg5... not exactly unbalanced and interesting...

  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #36 - 05/19/20 at 11:33:57
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OK, enough word games. I think you understood what I meant: The KIA leads to more interesting play against some defences than against others.
  

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Re: KIA rep
Reply #35 - 05/19/20 at 11:27:57
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Stigma wrote on 05/19/20 at 11:16:00:
"Unbalanced" isn't an either/or thing. It comes in degrees.

The KIA against the Sicilian is more unbalanced than the symmetrical KIA vs KID, for instance. I don't see how you can
disagree with that.


I most certainly disagree. Take the game below for an example. It turned sharp but it was not unbalanced. If you meant sharp then fine, but unbalanced no.

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044751


  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #34 - 05/19/20 at 11:23:08
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Another example of an unbalanced structure is the poisoned pawn sicilian najdorf.

Black compromises his kingside in return for a pawn grab.
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #33 - 05/19/20 at 11:16:00
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"Unbalanced" isn't an either/or thing. It comes in degrees.

The KIA against the Sicilian is more unbalanced than the symmetrical KIA vs KID, for instance. I don't see how you can disagree with that.
  

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Re: KIA rep
Reply #32 - 05/19/20 at 10:46:50
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Stigma wrote on 05/19/20 at 10:40:16:
None of that contradicts the fact that it's unbalanced - unless you try to play it against the Pirc or 1..e5.

"Unbalanced" and "closed and strategic" are not mutually exclusive terms, at least not to me.


Unbalanced positions entail dangerous structural compromises in return for dynamic play. The KID structures do not have dangerous structural compromises, such as fractured pawn structure and exposed king.
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #31 - 05/19/20 at 10:40:16
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None of that contradicts the fact that it's unbalanced - unless you try to play it against the Pirc or 1..e5.

"Unbalanced" and "closed and strategic" are not mutually exclusive terms, at least not to me.
  

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Re: KIA rep
Reply #30 - 05/19/20 at 10:38:33
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Stigma wrote on 05/19/20 at 10:36:06:
Heuristic wrote on 05/19/20 at 10:30:00:
That is the same as asking if there is a difference, since e4 will be played anyway.

Not the same thing. You can understand that there is a difference in that the moves 1.Nf3 and 1.e4 allow a different set of defences, but still wonder if one is better than the other and why.

Heuristic wrote on 05/19/20 at 10:30:00:
I would not characterize  KIA structures as unbalanced play.

Would you characterize KID structures as unbalanced play? Most people do. (Hint: It's the same structure.)

Stigma wrote on 05/19/20 at 10:36:06:
Heuristic wrote on 05/19/20 at 10:30:00:
That is the same as asking if there is a difference, since e4 will be played anyway.

Not the same thing. You can understand that there is a difference in that the moves 1.Nf3 and 1.e4 allow a different set of defences, but still wonder if one is better than the other and why.

Heuristic wrote on 05/19/20 at 10:30:00:
I would not characterize  KIA structures as unbalanced play.

Would you characterize KID structures as unbalanced play? Most people do. (Hint: It's the same structure.)


I would not characterize KID structures as unbalanced in and of themselves no. I would characterize the main line semi slav as unbalanced, however.
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #29 - 05/19/20 at 10:36:38
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Here's what wiki says

The KIA is a mirror image of the setup adopted by Black in the King's Indian Defence. Yet, because of White's extra tempo, the nature of the subsequent play is often different from that of a typical King's Indian Defence.

By its nature, the KIA is a closed, strategic opening that presents its practitioner with common themes and tactics and a comfortable middlegame against various defences
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #28 - 05/19/20 at 10:36:06
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Heuristic wrote on 05/19/20 at 10:30:00:
That is the same as asking if there is a difference, since e4 will be played anyway.

Not the same thing. You can understand that there is a difference in that the moves 1.Nf3 and 1.e4 allow a different set of defences, but still wonder if one move order is better than the other and why.

Heuristic wrote on 05/19/20 at 10:30:00:
I would not characterize  KIA structures as unbalanced play.

Would you characterize KID structures as unbalanced play? Most people do. (Hint: It's the same structure.)
  

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Re: KIA rep
Reply #27 - 05/19/20 at 10:30:00
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Stigma wrote on 05/19/20 at 10:20:23:
Heuristic wrote on 05/19/20 at 10:02:27:
He asked if there is any difference. That is the difference. The pirc does not avoid the kings indian attack.

I went back and looked at the OP. The question was "would it be better to play e4 or nf3 on move one and why?" Not the same thing as "if there is any difference".

I don't know how much MTal knew about the move order differences, but it's just more charitable to start by assuming people know the basics.

In any case, most of these differences between the 1.e4 and 1.Nf3 move orders have been discussed in the thread already.

Heuristic wrote on 05/19/20 at 10:02:27:
The pirc does not avoid the kings indian attack.

Obviously not. What I meant was White is advised to play something else against it (and 1...e5 and 1...d5) if the goal is interesting, unbalanced play.

Stigma wrote on 05/19/20 at 10:20:23:
Heuristic wrote on 05/19/20 at 10:02:27:
He asked if there is any difference. That is the difference. The pirc does not avoid the kings indian attack.

I went back and looked at the OP. The question was "would it be better to play e4 or nf3 on move one and why?" Not the same thing as "if there is any difference".

I don't know how much MTal knew about the move order differences, but it's just more charitable to start by assuming people know the basics.

In any case, most of these differences between the 1.e4 and 1.Nf3 move orders have been discussed in the thread already.

Heuristic wrote on 05/19/20 at 10:02:27:
The pirc does not avoid the kings indian attack.

Obviously not. What I meant was White is advised to play something else against it (and 1...e5 and 1...d5) if the goal is interesting, unbalanced play.


That is the same as asking if there is a difference, since e4 will be played anyway. I would not characterize  KIA structures as unbalanced play.
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #26 - 05/19/20 at 10:20:23
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Heuristic wrote on 05/19/20 at 10:02:27:
He asked if there is any difference. That is the difference. The pirc does not avoid the kings indian attack.

I went back and looked at the OP. The question was "would it be better to play e4 or nf3 on move one and why?" Not the same thing as "if there is any difference".

I don't know how much MTal knew about the move order differences, but it's just more charitable to start by assuming people know the basics.

In any case, most of these differences between the 1.e4 and 1.Nf3 move orders have been discussed in the thread already.

Heuristic wrote on 05/19/20 at 10:02:27:
The pirc does not avoid the kings indian attack.

Obviously not. What I meant was White is advised to play something else against it (and 1...e5 and 1...d5) if the goal is interesting, unbalanced play.
  

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Re: KIA rep
Reply #25 - 05/19/20 at 10:06:02
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mn wrote on 05/19/20 at 09:21:29:
Well, to be fair, is there any particular reason why you can't play the KIA against the Pirc/Modern? I mean it may feel a bit strange to play something like 1 e4 g6 2 Nf3 Bg7 3 d3 d6 4 g3 Nf6 5 Bg2 0-0 6 0-0, but if you're a diehard KIA player, is there any particular reason why you can't do it? I definitely think 1 e4 e5 is the biggest deterrent to playing the KIA via 1 e4, but as John Emms (I think?) wrote, it could be useful to learn the Open Games while also getting to avoid the main theory of most of the other openings. Btw, the Alekhine is also something you can't especially play the KIA against.


Against e5 you can try d3, and on d5 you can go Nc3. It's quirky but if you go d3 to the scandinavian and black trades... You see where I am going with this
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #24 - 05/19/20 at 10:02:27
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Stigma wrote on 05/19/20 at 08:46:35:
Heuristic wrote on 05/19/20 at 08:27:41:
Stigma wrote on 05/19/20 at 03:14:20:
Heuristic wrote on 05/18/20 at 21:25:51:
1.e4 makes no sense. Black can play the scandinavian.

KIA has a very solid reputation. But you really need to be a patient and strong player, if you want to beat strong players.

Basing a repertoire on 1.d4 and 2.c4 makes no sense. Black can play 1.d4 c5. /s


That's not comparable since white can always play some version of the kings indian attack if he starts 1.Nf3 but not 1 e4.

I know that. Almost everybody here knows that. So your assuming MTal didn't know it may have been insulting (if you didn't catch the point of my sarcasm). I usually give people the benefit of the doubt and assume they know basic stuff like this unless they clearly show they don't.

Anyway, saying 1.e4 aiming for the KIA "makes no sense" is simply wrong. Lots of people do that, but they are aware they need something else against 1..e5, the Scandinavian and the Pirc/Modern.


He asked if there is any difference. That is the difference. The pirc does not avoid the kings indian attack.
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #23 - 05/19/20 at 09:21:29
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Well, to be fair, is there any particular reason why you can't play the KIA against the Pirc/Modern? I mean it may feel a bit strange to play something like 1 e4 g6 2 Nf3 Bg7 3 d3 d6 4 g3 Nf6 5 Bg2 0-0 6 0-0, but if you're a diehard KIA player, is there any particular reason why you can't do it? I definitely think 1 e4 e5 is the biggest deterrent to playing the KIA via 1 e4, but as John Emms (I think?) wrote, it could be useful to learn the Open Games while also getting to avoid the main theory of most of the other openings. Btw, the Alekhine is also something you can't especially play the KIA against.
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #22 - 05/19/20 at 08:46:35
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Heuristic wrote on 05/19/20 at 08:27:41:
Stigma wrote on 05/19/20 at 03:14:20:
Heuristic wrote on 05/18/20 at 21:25:51:
1.e4 makes no sense. Black can play the scandinavian.

KIA has a very solid reputation. But you really need to be a patient and strong player, if you want to beat strong players.

Basing a repertoire on 1.d4 and 2.c4 makes no sense. Black can play 1.d4 c5. /s


That's not comparable since white can always play some version of the kings indian attack if he starts 1.Nf3 but not 1 e4.

I know that. Almost everybody here knows that. So your assuming MTal didn't know it may have been insulting (if you didn't catch the point of my sarcasm). I usually give people the benefit of the doubt and assume they know basic stuff like this unless they clearly show they don't.

Anyway, saying 1.e4 aiming for the KIA "makes no sense" is simply wrong. Lots of people do that, but they are aware they need something else against 1..e5, the Scandinavian and the Pirc/Modern.
  

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Re: KIA rep
Reply #21 - 05/19/20 at 08:27:41
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Stigma wrote on 05/19/20 at 03:14:20:
Heuristic wrote on 05/18/20 at 21:25:51:
1.e4 makes no sense. Black can play the scandinavian.

KIA has a very solid reputation. But you really need to be a patient and strong player, if you want to beat strong players.

Basing a repertoire on 1.d4 and 2.c4 makes no sense. Black can play 1.d4 c5. /s


That's not comparable since white can always play some version of the kings indian attack if he starts 1.Nf3 but not 1 e4.
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #20 - 05/19/20 at 03:14:20
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Heuristic wrote on 05/18/20 at 21:25:51:
1.e4 makes no sense. Black can play the scandinavian.

KIA has a very solid reputation. But you really need to be a patient and strong player, if you want to beat strong players.

Basing a repertoire on 1.d4 and 2.c4 makes no sense. Black can play 1.d4 c5. /s
  

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Re: KIA rep
Reply #19 - 05/18/20 at 21:25:51
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Mtal wrote on 04/13/20 at 05:50:22:
Hi all, I been looking for a backup rep, and was thinking of the KIA. First would it be better to play e4 or nf3 on move one and why? Are there any lines that are good for black that are really good for black that I would have to be aware of? Any thing else I should keep in mind about it? Any good book or video reconmendations? Thanks.


1.e4 makes no sense. Black can play the scandinavian.

KIA has a very solid reputation. But you really need to be a patient and strong player, if you want to beat strong players.
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #18 - 04/17/20 at 21:46:59
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Mtal wrote on 04/13/20 at 05:50:22:
Hi all, I been looking for a backup rep, and was thinking of the KIA. First would it be better to play e4 or nf3 on move one and why? Are there any lines that are good for black that are really good for black that I would have to be aware of? Any thing else I should keep in mind about it? Any good book or video reconmendations? Thanks.


These may interest you https://thechessworld.com/supercharge/kings-indian-attack-mastermind/
https://www.chessable.com/short-sweet-the-kings-indian-attack/course/27065/
https://www.chessable.com/reign-supreme-the-kings-indian-attack/course/26170/

Good luck and stay safe.
  

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Re: KIA rep
Reply #17 - 04/17/20 at 17:54:52
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Offhand I wondered if that was ever played by Duncan Suttles.

Yes, that would fit!
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #16 - 04/17/20 at 17:45:27
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Michael Ayton wrote on 04/17/20 at 17:35:12:
Mr Movsziszian plays the flexible 4 Nd2 here, and I noticed that in the position reached after 4 …Nf6 (not the only move of course) 5 e4 e6, he’s tried 6 Nh3, which I’m not sure I’ve seen before!

Offhand I wondered if that was ever played by Duncan Suttles.  (Bingo.)
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #15 - 04/17/20 at 17:35:12
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It might be another reason to start with 1.g3 as c5 2.Bg2 Nc6 3.d3 e6/g6 allows White to try the Polar Bear (4.f4) or the Big Clamp (4.e4).

A great idea from MNb, promoter indeed of numerous incisive ideas! I play the Reti and occasionally the (Botvinnik) English, but I don't always feel wild about the options after 1 Nf3 c5 (only a matter of taste of course), so starting with 1 g3 and hoping for a Clamp after 1 …c5 certainly appeals.

Of course, White has to be prepared for various alternatives, including 1 g3 c5 2 Bg2 Nc6 3 d3 d5, when I guess the choice is between a KIA and a Reversed Leningrad (which I imagine is neither better nor worse for White than many/most other ‘Polar’ lines). Mr Movsziszian plays the flexible 4 Nd2 here, and I noticed that in the position reached after 4 …Nf6 (not the only move of course) 5 e4 e6, he’s tried 6 Nh3, which I’m not sure I’ve seen before! This seems uncommon, but looks to score well even if the sample is a small one … But then, is it any good? And meanwhile, if White does try a KIA (via any move order) can he avoid the lines that don’t appeal to MNb (or others)? Maybe White’s chances are better in the Rev. Leningrad? – I’ve never played it so have no view.  Anyway, thanks for this suggestion, MNb, scourge (in another Forum thread), I notice, of the Closed Sicilian!
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #14 - 04/16/20 at 10:49:29
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VGA wrote on 04/15/20 at 23:25:20:
I think McDonald doesn't even cover 1.e4 ....e5 in his book.


You can play the Glek 4Knights (4.g3) -> its equal, as Petrosian said: "White is always equal and Black is always worse."
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #13 - 04/15/20 at 23:25:20
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Neil McDonald's book is great, I think half the games/chapters start with 1.Nf3. The KIA makes sense against the French and the Sicilian but it is toothless against e4-e5, I think McDonald doesn't even cover 1.e4 ....e5 in his book.

So if you are an e4 player you need to pair it with an e4-e5 opening or start your games with 1.Nf3 and allow all kinds of transpositions and ... novel opening lines Cheesy

Personally, I ran away from the KIA since I realised how easy it is for French players to play e5 in response to g3. If I'm going to invest time to learn an opening, it must be worth it and this just isn't.
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #12 - 04/15/20 at 20:32:06
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@Mtal

Maybe 1.e4 or 1.Nf3 depends on your opening choices so far. I came into playing the KIA for 3 or 4 years via having no prepared answer against the Sicilian and the French.

Emms Starting out was great for me. But I haven't read anything else.

You get an equal game and if black is prepared to defend his king and take room at the queenside his results are a little better than average. So if you can live with this and you have no experience with fianchetto plus pawn advance at your kingside you will have some fun and learn.

Meanwhile I have my lines against the Sicilian and the French. With black the experience from the white side in KIA games has made my life much easier in those games.  Smiley

P.S.: The KIA was the first opening in my 50 years of chess I didn't drop for the results. It was the simply plan for black leading to equality and white having no escape in case of a positonal mistake to avoid pressure for 30 moves or so.
  

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Re: KIA rep
Reply #11 - 04/15/20 at 09:12:51
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Mtal wrote on 04/13/20 at 05:50:22:
Any good book or video reconmendations? Thanks.

I liked Starting Out: King's Indian Attack by John Emms very much. He mentions both 1.Nf3 and 1.e4 to reach the KIA.
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #10 - 04/15/20 at 06:39:17
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 04/15/20 at 01:57:28:
5...g6 vs the KIA must be solid. But white can just play Nbd2 and e4 with typical King's Indian play.

Unfortunately statistics are depressing for White after 6.Nbd2 Bg7 7.O-O O-O. Making good use of the extra tempo seems to require quite some work.


an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 04/15/20 at 01:57:28:
More annoying is the system with ...e7-e6 and ...Ng8-e7. For example something like 1.Nf3 c5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Bg2 g6 4.O-O Bg7 5.d3 d5 6.Nbd2 e6 7.e4 Nge7 is not only equal, but difficult to generate play against.

Agreed, I played this as Black via the French (1.e4 e6 2.d3 c5 etc.) except that I kept the pawn on d7 even longer. It might be another reason to start with 1.g3 as c5 2.Bg2 Nc6 3.d3 e6/g6 allows White to try the Polar Bear (4.f4) or the Big Clamp (4.e4). So thanks for giving me the opportunity to repeat my recommendation.
  

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Re: KIA rep
Reply #9 - 04/15/20 at 02:24:21
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@Mtal - If you are going to concentrate on the KIA, then 1.Nf3 is by far the simplest way to start. Just be aware that you might need to play d2-d4 sometimes. For example in the line MNb gave, 1.Nf3 d6 2.g3 f5 3.Bg2 Nf6 4.O-O e5, white really should be playing d2-d4 at some point, most likely at move two. One of the strengths of 1.Nf3 is flexibility: white retains all the options with c, d, and e-pawns. But if white inflexibly plays only for d2-d3 and e2-e4, black can easily choose a setup where that's not great.

If on the other hand you have hopes of being a main-line 1.e4 player someday, then starting with 1.e4 to reach the KIA is a great move order. There are a few sharp responses you would have to learn right away, e.g. 1.e4 d5, and 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5. But you shouldn't mind that, because your plan is to be a main-line 1.e4 player, and you would need something against those anyway. Against most everything else, you can close your eyes and play the KIA. Later you can pick and choose which main lines to study first, and slowly replace your KIA one opening at a time.
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #8 - 04/15/20 at 01:57:28
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MNb wrote on 04/14/20 at 21:34:14:
That game started with 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 c5 4.O-O Nc6 5.d3 e5 6.Qe1 Be7 7.e4 d4 8.a4 O-O 9.Na3. Note that the Mar del Plata doesn't work - after 6.Nc3 Be7 7.e4 d4 8.Nce2 thie knight is misplaced exactly because Black hasn't castled yet. Perhaps 7.Na3 Be7 8.e4 d4 9.Nc4 ao PIket-Timman, NEDch 1996, wins a tempo for the attack compared to Kramnik's play.
I wonder what White's best option is against 5...g6 and 6...Bg7.

Kramnik must have been programmed to play the KIA, otherwise 5.d4 seems more in his style. Timman's move order avoided this. 1.Nf3 c5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Bg2 Nf6 4.O-O e5 5.d3 d5 6.Na3 Be7 7.e4 d4 etc.

Kramnik - van Foreest, Wijk aan Zee 2019
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1943771

Piket - Timman, Amsterdam 1996
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1143398

5...g6 vs the KIA must be solid. But white can just play Nbd2 and e4 with typical King's Indian play. More annoying is the system with ...e7-e6 and ...Ng8-e7. For example something like 1.Nf3 c5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Bg2 g6 4.O-O Bg7 5.d3 d5 6.Nbd2 e6 7.e4 Nge7 is not only equal, but difficult to generate play against. I got similar once as white and didn't know what to do. Luckily for me my opponent soon played ...d5xe4, and then I did know what to do!. Compare the same setup reversed in some Botvinnik - Smyslov games, e.g.

Botvinnik - Smyslov, match (16) 1954
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1032325
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #7 - 04/14/20 at 23:38:24
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MNb wrote on 04/14/20 at 21:34:14:
Perhaps 7.Na3 Be7 8.e4 d4 9.Nc4 ao PIket-Timman, NEDch 1996, wins a tempo for the attack compared to Kramnik's play.

Incidentally that game was annotated by Piket in Chess Informant (and cited in ECO).  Basically he thought it should have been unclear or equal until 8...Qc7 9.a4 Be6 10.Ne1 Nd7 11.f4 f6"?" 12.Bh3"!".
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #6 - 04/14/20 at 21:34:14
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That game started with 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 c5 4.O-O Nc6 5.d3 e5 6.Qe1 Be7 7.e4 d4 8.a4 O-O 9.Na3. Note that the Mar del Plata doesn't work - after 6.Nc3 Be7 7.e4 d4 8.Nce2 thie knight is misplaced exactly because Black hasn't castled yet. Perhaps 7.Na3 Be7 8.e4 d4 9.Nc4 ao PIket-Timman, NEDch 1996, wins a tempo for the attack compared to Kramnik's play.
I wonder what White's best option is against 5...g6 and 6...Bg7.
  

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Re: KIA rep
Reply #5 - 04/13/20 at 21:51:02
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MW wrote on 04/13/20 at 20:00:59:
In addition to the games of Amin Bassem, Kramnik played a good few KIA games against Slav like lines (d5, c6, Nf6, Bg4 etc) with good success, they are also worth a look.    

I was a bit struck by a game Kramnik-Jorden van Foreest.  It was a kind of reversed classical KID in which Kramnik's attack involved Nh4 and Ng6, then he missed a chance to get in a decisive Nh8.
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #4 - 04/13/20 at 20:00:59
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Would agree with "nestor's"  comments, Neil McDonald's book on the KIA is excellent....

If you want to get a feel for 1 e4 followed by the KIA set-up  Chessable have a course by FM Plichta. There is also a Short & Sweet version (with 26 variations) which you can get for free to see if you like the course. He has done a good job with it.

In addition to the games of Amin Bassem, Kramnik played a good few KIA games against Slav like lines (d5, c6, Nf6, Bg4 etc) with good success, they are also worth a look.
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #3 - 04/13/20 at 11:39:08
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Mtal wrote on 04/13/20 at 05:50:22:
First would it be better to play e4 or nf3 on move one and why?


It depends rather on what you are prepared to play next. KIA can work after 1. e4 c5 or 1. e4 e6, but less well or not at all against the alternatives. If you play 1. Nf3, you have to know where you are going after 1. .. Nf6 with Black just copying White for a while. Also you have you know how to play against 1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 Bf5/g4.

There's also the reversed Pirc to be wary of. 1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 Nc6 3. Bg2 e5.
  
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Re: KIA rep
Reply #2 - 04/13/20 at 08:00:12
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Mtal wrote on 04/13/20 at 05:50:22:
Are there any lines that are good for black

The New York Defense, ie the London with colours reversed: 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 c6 3.Bg2 Nf6 4.O-O Bf5 (g6 is also rock solid).


Mtal wrote on 04/13/20 at 05:50:22:
that are really good for black

This pseudo-Dutch setup: 1.Nf3 d6 2.g3 f5 3.Bg2 Nf6 4.O-O e5.

Have you thought of 1.g3 ? It allows you to play a Polar Bear (1.g3 d5 2.Bg2 c6 3.d3 Nf6 4.f4) against ultra solid c6/d5 setups and play a more challenging English after 1.g3 d6 2.Bg2 e5 3.d3 f5 4.c4, like 5.Nc3, 6.e3 and 7.Nge2 (compare Sicilian Big Clamp). The downside is that Black has even a wider choice than after 1.Nf3. But perhaps he/she'll fall for one of these little traps:

1.g3 e5 2.Bg2 f5?! 3.d4! (compare 1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.e4 d5!).
1.g3 e5 2.Bg2 d5 3.d3 Nc6 (Pirc with colours reversed) 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.O-O Be7 6.c4 d4?! (dxc4 7.Qa4 O-O 8.Qxc4 or O-O 7.cxd5 Nxd5 - the latter is almost a main line of the English) 7.b4! and the extra tempo counts.

Of course you also have to figure out how to break symmetry after 1.g3 g6.
  

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Re: KIA rep
Reply #1 - 04/13/20 at 07:26:47
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You won't go wrong with King's Indian Attack: Move by Move by Neil McDonald (Everyman, 2014). Neil is very good at explaining why one thing works and another doesn't, and he doesn't pretend that White is better everywhere when this is plainly not the case. You play the KIA to get a decent, strategically complicated position with most or all of the pieces still on the board, from which you can hope to outplay your opponent; Black is objectively fine in many different lines, but must still play the arising positions well.

1.e4 or 1.Nf3 is just a choice you have to make. You can still set up a KIA formation after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 (or indeed 2...Nf6), and GMs have done so, but it's not going to be one of the better versions. There is no such option after 1.e4 d5, but if finding a good response to the Scandinavian is the biggest problem in your repertoire, you're better placed than most of us. 1.Nf3 allows 1...d5 2.g3 c6 or 1...f5 (although again, if 1...f5 is your biggest problem...). Overall I think 1.e4 is a bit more work, because if Black sets up with c6+d5 or e6+d5 you have to be aware of options with an early dxe4; 1.Nf3 lets you play e4 when it suits you.

It's definitely worth while to identify the strongest regular practitioners and look at their games. Amin Bassem comes to mind for starters.
  
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KIA rep
04/13/20 at 05:50:22
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Hi all, I been looking for a backup rep, and was thinking of the KIA. First would it be better to play e4 or nf3 on move one and why? Are there any lines that are good for black that are really good for black that I would have to be aware of? Any thing else I should keep in mind about it? Any good book or video reconmendations? Thanks.
  
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