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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Kan 4...a6 5.Nc3 sources (Read 2062 times)
Jupp53
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Re: Kan 4...a6 5.Nc3 sources
Reply #23 - 05/15/20 at 10:23:48
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The book of Hellsten 2008 is still a good source.
  

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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Kan 4...a6 5.Nc3 sources
Reply #22 - 05/12/20 at 12:49:49
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Hi.

I've now given up on trying to make the 6.Qf3 line work. To many precise moves and different ideas needed everywhere.

In terms of concrete lines. Besides the 6.Qf3 Nf6 7.Bg5 b5, which I gave as OK for black, also:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 a6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Qf3 Nf6 7.Bg5 Qe5 8.Bxf6 gxf6!? 9.0-0-0 b5
Seems to require precision. The computer likes some lines that just seem to be nothing.
10.g3
10.Nb3 Bb7 11.Na5 Ra7! 12.Nxb7 Rxb7 13.Kb1 h5!! Prevents white's idea of Qg3+f4
10.Kb1!? Bb7 11.Qe3 White has some ideas.
10...Bg7 11.Bg2 Bb7
11...0-0!?
12.Nd5!?
White should likely wait with 12.Rhe1.
12...0-0 13.Qe2 exd5 14.f4
14.Nf5 Kh8 15.Kb1 dxe4 16.Qg4 Rg8 17.Nd6 Rf8 18.Nf5 Equal.
14...Qc7 15.Nf5
15.Qg4 Rc8! With counterplay.
15...Kh8 16.exd5 d6 17.Qh5 Nd7 18.Rhe1 Rac8
Black has enough counterplay down the c-line.

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After 7.Be2 instead I don't like that the following line appears kinda crazy:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 a6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Qf3 Nf6 7.Be2 Bd6
Black uses the fact that white has some not optimally placed pieces to get his bishop to e5. There it can probably be driven away at some point, but is very active while it is there.
8.Be3
8.Bg5 also looked decent but I couldn't find anything special.
Be5 9.g4 (D)
Looks like the only critical plan, although it leads to highly imbalanced positions.


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9...h6
Looks like black's best.
9...b5 10.g5 Ng8 11.Ndxb5! axb5 12.Nxb5 Qc6 13.Bf4 Qc5 14.Bxe5 Qxe5 15.O-O-O d5 16.Bc4 Ne7 17.exd5 O-O 18.dxe6 Bxe6 19.Bxe6 With good compensation for white.
9...h5 10.h3 Nc6 11.O-O-O Nxd4 12.Bxd4 Bxd4 13.Rxd4 hxg4 14.hxg4 Rxh1+ 15.Qxh1 White should have the easier play
10.h4 h5!
Only now.
11.gxh5 b5 12.Rg1!?
Or the crazy
12.h6 Rxh6 13.Bxh6 gxh6 14.O-O-O
14.Qe3 Bf4 15.Qd3 b4 16.Nd1 Bb7 17.Bf3 Nc6 18.Nxc6 Bxc6 19.Ne3 Be5 20.O-O-O Bb5 21.Qd2 a5 Enough compensation.
14...Bb7 15.Rhg1 b4!? 16.Nd5 exd5 17.Qxf6 Bxf6 18.Rg8+ Ke7 19.Nf5+ Ke6 20.Re8+ Be7 21.Rxe7+ Kf6 22.Bh5 Qh2! 23.Rxf7+ Ke5 24.Kb1
And the computer seems to somewhat prefer white after thinking a little. Going in to this it thought black was fine.
12...b4!?
12...Bb7 13.Rg5 Nc6 14.Rd1
13.Ncb5
Going for it. I am not totally sure you should but the alternative 13.Nb1 is not exactly going to lead to simple chess either.
13...axb5 14.Nxb5 Qc6
14...Qd8 15.Bf4 Bxf4 16.Qxf4 Kf8 17.Nd6 and yea... White may be better somehow but the position looks like a mess.
15.h6 Rxh6 16.Rxg7 Rxh4 17.Rg5 Bxb2
17...d6!? 18.Rxe5 dxe5 19.Bg5 Rf4 20.Bxf4 exf4 21.Qxf4 Probably doesn't quite work for black.
18.Rc5 Bxa1 19.Rxc6 Nxc6 20.Bg5 Nd4!? 21.Qg2 Nxb5 22.Bxh4 Bb7 23.Bxb5 Bxe4 (D)

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White's queen is probably stronger than rook and piece and one or two pawns.
  
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mn
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Re: Kan 4...a6 5.Nc3 sources
Reply #21 - 05/05/20 at 08:32:23
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Hi,
Yes, I did mean 11 Bd3, and thanks for the tip about 15...d5. I agree that the main line isn't easy for Black.
  
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Re: Kan 4...a6 5.Nc3 sources
Reply #20 - 05/05/20 at 06:18:08
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mn wrote on 05/04/20 at 20:32:48:
Hi,
Yeah, playing Be2 against the Kan is sort of predicated on playing Be2 against the Taimanov as well. I'm not aware of any sources from the White side on the Be2 Taimanov. After 7 0-0 Nf6 8 Be3 Bb4, I've played 9 Na4 Be7 10 Nxc6 bxc6 11 Nb6 etc. in my own games, and I also think brabo's line with 10 Bd3 is very interesting.

I think you mean 11.Bd3 instead.
Besides I only play that move anymore in blitz/rapid since 2017. I think after 11.Bd3 c5 12.c4 Bb7 13.Nc3 0-0 14.f4 Rad8 is annoying as after 15.Qf3 there is d5 with a very nice position for black (I found 1 correspondence game and 1 standardgame via a transposition in the databases with this so it is not well known). I had therefore a look also at 14.Qe2 instead of 14.f4 and even 13.Qf3 which was played in some computergame. Both are fully playable but probably not sufficient to put a lot of pressure on black.
Anyway I notice in blitz/ rapid nobody finds the right setup for black. In my most recent standardgame I chose for the mainline with 11.Nb6 which isn't easy at all for black.
  
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mn
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Re: Kan 4...a6 5.Nc3 sources
Reply #19 - 05/04/20 at 20:32:48
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Hi,
Yeah, playing Be2 against the Kan is sort of predicated on playing Be2 against the Taimanov as well. I'm not aware of any sources from the White side on the Be2 Taimanov. After 7 0-0 Nf6 8 Be3 Bb4, I've played 9 Na4 Be7 10 Nxc6 bxc6 11 Nb6 etc. in my own games, and I also think brabo's line with 10 Bd3 is very interesting.
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Kan 4...a6 5.Nc3 sources
Reply #18 - 05/04/20 at 17:32:20
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Hello.

To continue this. I looked some at:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 a6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Qf3 Nf6 7.Be2. A different strategy compared to 7.Bg5. There is certainly room for black to go wrong but I somewhat doubt it can be better for white objectively. Will post something later.

If not this then I am tempted to just go 6.Be2. The line mn mentions seems pleasant. What I sort of wonder about though is what to do after:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 a6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Be2 Nc6 (?)
It seems like a Taimanov position. Are there any good sources on this? I very briefly checked Van Kampen's video series and he has some interesting line without a6 against 6.Be2 Taimanov.
I don't have Pavlidis GM rep but checking the excerpt I assume he does play with a6. This could be a good place to look.
There is also Negi III. He plays with Be3+Qd2 though so I doubt it's gonna be the same positions.

Have a nice day.
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Kan 4...a6 5.Nc3 sources
Reply #17 - 04/27/20 at 16:36:56
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Hi.

This weekend I read a lot about the 5.Nc3 Kan. Mainly in Dismantling the Sicilian 2nd ed. (2017), since I bought it. Very interesting stuff. Especially how white adjusts his setup so much depending on what black does. Overall it felt like like a swamp of fairly different lines, especially after 5...b5, and white needing to look for and find so many different ideas all the time to play well. One bad piece positioning, even sometimes fairly natural moves, could pretty much give the other side a lot of traction.

I also looked a bit at 5...Qc7 6.Qf3 again. Mainly because I'd want it to work. I think black equalises after 6...Nf6 7.Bg5 b5 though:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 a6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Qf3 Nf6
Now the standard Taimanov move 7.Qg3 is met with 7...d6 and it's not clear what white has achieved so...
7.Bg5!? Qe5!?
7...b5 8.Bxf6 gxf6 9.Qxf6 Rg8 10.g3 Bg7 11.Qg5 Nc6 12.Nce2 Bb7 13.Bg2 Qe5 14.Qxe5 Nxe5 15.a4
15.O-O?! Nc4 16.a4 b4! 17.Rad1 Ke7 Black should have decent compensation.
15...Ke7 16.0-0 Nc4!? 17.axb5 axb5 18.b3 Nd2 19.Rxa8 Rxa8 20.Re1 Nxe4 21.Nxb5 (=) to (+=) white is very marginally for choice with an extra pawn (Edit: around +0.3 at high depth) but black should be OK.
8.Bxf6 Qxf6 9.Qe3 (D)
I saw this computer suggested continuation earlier. I really thought it looked weird to give away the dark squared bishop though, so I didn't even check it. Alternatives don't look good however so I came back. White seems maybe a bit more comfortable after e.g.
9...Bd6 10.g3 Nc6 11.Nb3 Bc7 12.f4
Here I'd prefer white. provided black finds some decent plan he might be able to equalise or at least take the sting out of a white pawn advance; white should always have a small initiative with the plan of pushing pawns on the kingside. There are a few more possible lines after 9.Qe3 where having exchanged off the dark squared bishop for white doesn't seem a major factor. He has some kind of plan of e5 or e5+f4 to occupy the central dark squares and give nice room for his other pieces.

6.Qf3 d6, as suggested by mn, seems probably ok as well even if white has some serious attempts. Very strategic chess.

Have a nice day.

Edit: grammar and added a computer evaluation
« Last Edit: 04/27/20 at 18:22:15 by Confused_by_Theory »  
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mn
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Re: Kan 4...a6 5.Nc3 sources
Reply #16 - 04/24/20 at 02:26:11
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Yeah I think 5...b5 6 Bd3 is clearly the strongest move. I haven't looked at it in much detail though. I remember liking 6...Qb6 7 Nf3.

Regarding 5...Qc7, on 6 Be2 I kind of think Black should transpose into either a Taimanov or a Scheveningen, rather than play any of the independent Kan options. I seem to vaguely recall we briefly discussed 6 Qf3 before in one of the Taimanov main line threads. I remember thinking ...d6 and ...Nd7 was a good idea for Black.
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Kan 4...a6 5.Nc3 sources
Reply #15 - 04/23/20 at 23:30:30
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Heya.

I mainly looked at 5.Nc3 b5 so far. No 6.a3 though, only the Experts vs. the Sicilian move of 6.Bd3. Black has so many options that it quickly becomes a lot to analyse. I will have to get back on the whole line.

Clearly what to do after:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 a6 5.Nc3 Qc7
Is highly important as well.

If 6.Be2 is strong that would be great.

I looked shortly at 6.Qf3. What I thought was that 6...Nf6 7.Bg5 Qe5!? was hard to face. Therefore probably 7.Qg3 d6 but I don't know how well or unwell white can apply pressure in such a situation.

Have a nice night.

Edit: Forgot a word.
« Last Edit: 04/24/20 at 10:14:54 by Confused_by_Theory »  
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Re: Kan 4...a6 5.Nc3 sources
Reply #14 - 04/23/20 at 09:30:57
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You can even go Be2 earlier than move 5 - no 'need' to play d4 until black is threatening to play e5. Don't think it gives you anything special.
  
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Re: Kan 4...a6 5.Nc3 sources
Reply #13 - 04/22/20 at 20:53:29
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Attached are some quick thoughts from clicking around today. I think Delchev/Semkov's recommended 6...b5 line is better for White, and 6...Nf6/7...Bb4 also seems more pleasant for White after 8 Qd3 or 8 Bg5. Obviously you kind of have to be willing to play the Be2 Taimanov and Classical Scheveningen to play this way against the Kan, though.
  

Ravinsky-Kan.pgn ( 3 KB | 32 Downloads )
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mn
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Re: Kan 4...a6 5.Nc3 sources
Reply #12 - 04/22/20 at 18:13:20
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Yeah, I've definitely considered 5 Be2. I suspect this is a more accurate way of reaching Be2 lines than 5 Nc3 Qc7 6 Be2, although Black does gain the (risky) extra option of 5...Nf6 6 Nc3 Bb4, which might be just about playable. The thing is, though, if I were given the choice of any 5th move I like after 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 e6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 a6, I would probably choose 5 c4. However, like Confused_By_Theory mentions, I'd like to have the possibility of starting with 2 Nc3, so it might be easier to just have a Nc3-compatible repertoire against the Kan. Besides, this thread is about 5 Nc3   Wink
  
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Re: Kan 4...a6 5.Nc3 sources
Reply #11 - 04/22/20 at 09:50:21
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mn wrote on 04/22/20 at 04:16:53:
I play 6 Be2 in the Taimanov, so naturally I'd like to play 6 Be2 here as well. One of Black's main tries seems to be 6...b5, when play tends to continue 7 0-0 Bb7 8 Re1 Nc6 9 Nxc6 bxc6 10 e5 Rd8 11 Bd3 c5, when White can play moves like 12 Qh5 and 12 Qg4 in an attempt to gain an advantage. I've never looked at this in detail, but the computer at least initially seems to prefer White.

6...Nf6 7 Nc3 Bb4 is another main independent try, when I've looked at 8 Bg5 a bit, which leads to quite unclear positions where White has compensation for a pawn in kind of murky territory. 8 Qd3 is also possible.

I've had the 5 c4 line in my repertoire for a little bit, but, like you, I'd like to have the option of starting with 2 Nc3 as well, so making this sort of repertoire work is appealing.

Have you considered playing 5. Be2? This can still transpose to the 8. Bg5 line you mention but with no knight on c3 I was under the impression that lines with an early ...b5 were thought to be less reliable for black (e.g. 5... b5 6. a4), although I'll admit I've never properly looked at it myself.
  
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Re: Kan 4...a6 5.Nc3 sources
Reply #10 - 04/22/20 at 04:16:53
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I play 6 Be2 in the Taimanov, so naturally I'd like to play 6 Be2 here as well. One of Black's main tries seems to be 6...b5, when play tends to continue 7 0-0 Bb7 8 Re1 Nc6 9 Nxc6 bxc6 10 e5 Rd8 11 Bd3 c5, when White can play moves like 12 Qh5 and 12 Qg4 in an attempt to gain an advantage. I've never looked at this in detail, but the computer at least initially seems to prefer White.

6...Nf6 7 Nc3 Bb4 is another main independent try, when I've looked at 8 Bg5 a bit, which leads to quite unclear positions where White has compensation for a pawn in kind of murky territory. 8 Qd3 is also possible.

I've had the 5 c4 line in my repertoire for a little bit, but, like you, I'd like to have the option of starting with 2 Nc3 as well, so making this sort of repertoire work is appealing.
  
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Re: Kan 4...a6 5.Nc3 sources
Reply #9 - 04/21/20 at 11:05:43
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Hi.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 04/20/20 at 16:59:45:
Something like 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 a6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.g3 Bb4 7.Bd2 Nf6 8.Bg2 O-O 9.O-O d6 10.Ncb5 Qc4 11.Bxb4 Qxb4 12.c3 Qc5 13.Na3 e5 14.Ndc2 Rd8 15.Ne3 seems a little easier for white to play. It's not very much, but then nothing in the g3 Taimanov is, either.

This could work as an idea in practice. It appears not so easy for black to find routes to clear equality. That being said it does not look so bad either. Black gets a e5-Sicilian structure with only three light pieces and white's pieces mostly trying to hold black down.

Have a nice day.
  
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