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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Black Lion/Philidor (Read 827 times)
Dink Heckler
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Re: Black Lion/Philidor
Reply #12 - 04/30/20 at 11:55:34
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Theory in the Philidor changes more slowly than continental drift, so you could still get a lot of value out of either of those books.
  

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Krudos
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Re: Black Lion/Philidor
Reply #11 - 04/29/20 at 19:50:30
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Thanks Topnotch (and an ordinary chessplayer). A shrewd observation as I have been a French Defence player for a long time.

Are either the Kosten or Bauer books worthwhile buying or are they too old?
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Black Lion/Philidor
Reply #10 - 04/29/20 at 17:01:13
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Krudos wrote on 04/29/20 at 13:34:38:
Thanks for all your helpful comments.

The line I was thinking about was:
1e4 d6 2 d4 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nbd7 4 Nf3 e5 5 Bc4 Be7 and then 6dxe5 or 6 0-0 0-0 7 dxe5 dxe5 8Bg5 with the idea of playing the bishop around to g3 via h4

It is played a lot online and by some quite strong players


That is the danger of simply trying to memorise theory instead of understanding it. Study 100 complete model games in the philidor structure and most of your worries will be solved, also there is a lot of cross pollination of opening ideas when it comes to certain pawn structures, for e.g: 

Thogersen,Rasmus (2277) - Brunello,S (2548) [C50]
57th TCh-DEN Ex 2018-19 Denmark DEN (5.5), 12.01.2019
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 Bc5 5.0-0 0-0 6.Bg5 h6 7.Bh4 Be7 8.c3 d6 9.a4 Nh5

Do you see the familiarity with the position you are worried about. The above example is a typical way of dealing with Bg5 in 1e4 e5 openings, the exchange of dark squared bishops here generally favors Black because the resultant pawn structure leaves White chronically weak on the dark squares, moreover exchanging a couple pieces is good strategy for the side with less space, and a dubious strategy for the side with more.

A lot more could be said about the Philidor structure you mentioned, but to reiterate your problem is not opening theory per se, but rather a lack of understanding regarding fundamental Pawn structures and how that impacts the middlegame.   

Hope that helps you going forward.
  

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Re: Black Lion/Philidor
Reply #9 - 04/29/20 at 15:54:43
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Krudos wrote on 04/29/20 at 13:34:38:
Thanks for all your helpful comments.

The line I was thinking about was:
1e4 d6 2 d4 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nbd7 4 Nf3 e5 5 Bc4 Be7 and then 6dxe5 or 6 0-0 0-0 7 dxe5 dxe5 8Bg5 with the idea of playing the bishop around to g3 via h4

It is played a lot online and by some quite strong players

That's nothing for white. The bishop just gets chased down on kingside.
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nbd7 4.Nf3 e5 5.Bc4 Be7 6.O-O O-O 7.dxe5 dxe5 8.Bg5 c6 9.a4 h6 10.Bh4 Nh5 is instant equality. This ...h6, Bh4, ...Nh5 idea is also thematic in the Bg5, e3, Qc2 line in the Old Indian. Here in the Philidor, white's bishop on c4 is loose, so Nf3xe5 doesn't work at all.
  
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Re: Black Lion/Philidor
Reply #8 - 04/29/20 at 13:34:38
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Thanks for all your helpful comments.

The line I was thinking about was:
1e4 d6 2 d4 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nbd7 4 Nf3 e5 5 Bc4 Be7 and then 6dxe5 or 6 0-0 0-0 7 dxe5 dxe5 8Bg5 with the idea of playing the bishop around to g3 via h4

It is played a lot online and by some quite strong players
  
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Re: Black Lion/Philidor
Reply #7 - 04/29/20 at 08:06:07
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TopNotch wrote on 04/29/20 at 05:42:36:
I assumed the original poster was asking about the position after:1 e4 d6  2 d4 Nf6  3 Nc3 e5  4 dxe5? but you're right it could also be: 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.dxe5 or a later dxe5.

The question needed to be more precise.

I agree, but it gave me a chance to put on my Inspector Clouseau cap, so I was happy.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Black Lion/Philidor
Reply #6 - 04/29/20 at 05:42:36
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I assumed the original poster was asking about the position after:1 e4 d6  2 d4 Nf6  3 Nc3 e5  4 dxe5? but you're right it could also be: 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.dxe5 or a later dxe5.

The question needed to be more precise.
  

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Re: Black Lion/Philidor
Reply #5 - 04/29/20 at 02:38:13
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 04/29/20 at 01:40:52:
He follows Evenson - Alekhine, Kiev 1916

Incidentally that game was annotated by Alekhine in his Deux Cents Parties d'Echecs; he commented that 7. de only results in freeing Black's game (Cet échange de pions n'aboutit qu'ŕ dégager le jeu des Noirs).
  
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Re: Black Lion/Philidor
Reply #4 - 04/29/20 at 01:40:52
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1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nc3 Nbd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.dxe5 is what Bauer (2006) The Philidor Files covers on page 220. The followup is 6...dxe5 7.Bxf7+ Kxf7 8.Ng5+ Kg6! and the theory of this variation hasn't changed in ages -- black gets the better game. At least d4xe5 has some point here, even if it's a bad one.

A lot of white players play a premature d4xe5 with no particular followup in mind. For example, same first five moves as above, then 6.O-O O-O 7.dxe5 (Here Bauer gives only 7.Re1, 7.Qe2, 7.a4, 7.Bg5?!, and 7.h3?!) 7...dxe5. I have even had 2200-players do it against me. One of them doubled on the d-file and in the post-mortem claimed a clear advantage when I thought he was close to positionally lost. (We were both wrong. The game ended in a crazy draw.) The thing is, you won't find much published theory on d4xe5 because it makes black's game so easy, it's not worth analyzing.

Kosten (1992) Winning with the Philidor, pages 126-127, gives 7.dxe5?! dxe5 and says "The resultant central configuration slightly favours Black.... Obviously, there is no good reason to take on e5 at this juncture; Black gains use of b4 and c5, while white gains nothing."

He follows Evenson - Alekhine, Kiev 1916
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1011981
and in a note he gives Valli - Laplaza, 1970, which I couldn't find online.

The online ChessBase database has hundreds of games reaching the position after 7.dxe5 dxe5. White scores about 39%, which supports Kosten's assessment.
  
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Re: Black Lion/Philidor
Reply #3 - 04/29/20 at 00:49:14
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Er, I see that the Bauer reference is apparently to 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e5 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. Bc4 Be7 6. de (which I know of as an old possibility connected with Bxf7/Ng5 attempts after 6...de).
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Black Lion/Philidor
Reply #2 - 04/29/20 at 00:27:19
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Krudos wrote on 04/28/20 at 22:36:52:
I have been trying this out online and many of my opponents play an early dxe5 but none of the books I have cover this and nor does the Ginger GM in his Chessable course.

Any theory that could be shared here please?

I notice (in an index) that Bauer covers this briefly on page 220 I think but I don't know what he says.


Bologan covers it in his DVD, Zude covers it in his book, Andrew Greet covers it in Beating Unusual Defences from white's perspective, Barsky covers it in Chess-Stars The Modern Philidor, Khalifman covers for White in his 1e4 Anand series and chessopenings24-7.com had an important pgn e-book on it by GM Borki Predojevic before the website went belly up.

I'm not surprised Ginger doesn't cover it, the stuff he offers tends to be more on the unsound side than objectively playable, although in practice otb such a wild style can be tricky to face. Word to the wise that g5 stuff in the Philidor is total rubbish, and has been know to be rubbish in praxis and theory for a very long time.

By the way Sam Shankland in his latest Chessable Course Lifetime Repertoires - Semi-Slav, rips apart a number of lines from Ginger's recent courses, chief among them being The Jobava London System.

Strange that none of your other sources examine the dxe5 endgame.
« Last Edit: 04/29/20 at 05:36:03 by TopNotch »  

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Re: Black Lion/Philidor
Reply #1 - 04/28/20 at 23:01:02
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Are you talking about the move order......1 e4 d6  2 d4 Nf6  3 Nc3 e5  4 dxe5?
  
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Black Lion/Philidor
04/28/20 at 22:36:52
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I have been trying this out online and many of my opponents play an early dxe5 but none of the books I have cover this and nor does the Ginger GM in his Chessable course.

Any theory that could be shared here please?

I notice (in an index) that Bauer covers this briefly on page 220 I think but I don't know what he says.
  
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