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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) London vs c5 (Read 2313 times)
VGA
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Re: London vs c5
Reply #20 - 06/15/20 at 02:32:13
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ArKheiN wrote on 06/14/20 at 23:00:39:
Well when White play the London, that's not necessary to crunch the opponent from the opening. There is still people winning as White in master play in that Bf4 Caro-Kann. Equalizing in theory is a thing, to draw it in the end is another thing, ask Carlsen's opponents Smiley


Carlsen is the only human whose opponents are all worse than him. Cheesy

Anyway, I am talking about club level and online games: London players play the opening to avoid concrete theory and get safely to a middlegame.

After 1. d4 d5 2. Bf4 c5 3. e3 or 3. c3
Black can develop nicely with 3. ... Nc6 and keep the tension with Qb6 coming. 4. dxc5 is unplayable because of e5 hitting the bishop

By the way, earlier I mentioned Burgess's "Idiot-Proof Repertoire for Black", well, it's for both colors, forget the "for Black" part!

Also, why isn't this in the London section?
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: London vs c5
Reply #19 - 06/14/20 at 23:00:39
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Well when White play the London, that's not necessary to crunch the opponent from the opening. There is still people winning as White in master play in that Bf4 Caro-Kann. Equalizing in theory is a thing, to draw it in the end is another thing, ask Carlsen's opponents Smiley

  
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kylemeister
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Re: London vs c5
Reply #18 - 06/14/20 at 18:18:49
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 06/14/20 at 17:17:06:
The "problem" is that black has fairly easy equality. 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 c5 3.e3 cxd4 4.exd4 Nc6 is simply an Exchange Caro-Kann (1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5) where white has mistimed Bf4. So black gets a quiet reversed Carlsbad structure with no development problems, in particular the c8-bishop goes to f5 or g4 very soon. Similar considerations apply to 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c5 3.e3 cxd4 4.exd4 Nc6.

Also after 5. c3 there is 5...f6 (dubbed the Apeldoorn Variation in a NIC Yearbook last year).  In the April d-Pawn Specials update, the ball was said to be firmly in White's court.
  
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Re: London vs c5
Reply #17 - 06/14/20 at 17:17:06
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ArKheiN wrote on 06/14/20 at 10:20:16:
What is the problem for White if he just play 3.e3?

The "problem" is that black has fairly easy equality. 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 c5 3.e3 cxd4 4.exd4 Nc6 is simply an Exchange Caro-Kann (1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5) where white has mistimed Bf4. So black gets a quiet reversed Carlsbad structure with no development problems, in particular the c8-bishop goes to f5 or g4 very soon. Similar considerations apply to 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c5 3.e3 cxd4 4.exd4 Nc6.

I don't think 3.e3 is challenging at all, 3.c3 might be a better "system" try. Or white can play sharply: 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 c5 3.e4!? ; 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c5 3.c4! .
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: London vs c5
Reply #16 - 06/14/20 at 10:20:16
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What is the problem for White if he just play 3.e3?
  
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kylemeister
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Re: London vs c5
Reply #15 - 06/13/20 at 21:03:16
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VGA wrote on 06/13/20 at 20:39:27:
I don't understand how there can be a counter-gambit when there is no gambit in the first place, though!

The term has been used for any gambit by Black.  At least I recall it being used that way in a book Tim Harding wrote long ago (Counter Gambits).
  
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VGA
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Re: London vs c5
Reply #14 - 06/13/20 at 20:39:27
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By the way, semi-related: I love the d4 d5 Bf4 c5 move. I saw it on Burgess's "Idiot-Proof Repertoire for Black" and I get good and interesting positions. It is forceful and I like taking London players out of their automatic setup moves.

According to
https://www.365chess.com/eco/D00_Queen%27s_pawn_Mason_variation_Steinitz_counter...

and

https://old.chesstempo.com/gamedb/opening/1594

it is called the "Steinitz counter-gambit" and it scores well. I don't understand how there can be a counter-gambit when there is no gambit in the first place, though!
  
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Re: London vs c5
Reply #13 - 05/15/20 at 08:10:57
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BeeCaves wrote on 05/07/20 at 01:12:27:
Carlsen has been playing 1 d4 Nf6 2 Bf4 c5 3 d5 lately in online games (Banter Blitz versus Cheparinov, rapid versus Repo) and



There's a Benoni like continuation where the tactics  differ from positions where f4 is occupied by a pawn.

1. d4 Nf6 2. Bf4 c5 3. d5 d6 4. c4 e6 5. Nc3 exd5 6. cxd5 g6 7. e4 Bg7 8. Bb5+ . It might look as if 8. .. Bd7 leaves the d6 pawn hanging with a threat of Qe2 as well, but there's a way out. So 9. Bxd6 Bxb5 10. Nxb5 Qa5 11. Nc3 Nxe4.

Other tries are possible after taking the pawn, but Black's activity compensates.
  
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Mtal
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Re: London vs c5
Reply #12 - 05/14/20 at 04:21:35
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BeeCaves wrote on 05/07/20 at 01:12:27:
Mtal wrote on 05/06/20 at 10:38:22:
kylemeister wrote on 05/05/20 at 16:42:51:
I presume you meant 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bf4 c5.
Opps yes sorry.


Carlsen has been playing 1 d4 Nf6 2 Bf4 c5 3 d5 lately in online games (Banter Blitz versus Cheparinov, rapid versus Repo) and Demuth recommends it in his series on chess24 -- 1 d4 Nf6 2 Bf4 c5 3 d5 d6 4 Nc3 e5 5 Bd2 e4 is a possible line.

I don't know if white has an advantage there but I think many consideration the line 1 d4 Nf6 2 Bf4 c5 3 e3 Qb6 4 Nc3 Qxb2 5 Nb5 Nd5 6 a3 a6 7 Rb1 Qa2 8 Qc1 axb5 9 Ra1 Qxa1 10 Qxa1 easier to play for Black -- however it probably is equal with best play and very sharp so could fit the bill if that's what you're looking for.





Thanks for the info, how is the Demuth series on chess 24?
  
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Re: London vs c5
Reply #11 - 05/07/20 at 01:12:27
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Mtal wrote on 05/06/20 at 10:38:22:
kylemeister wrote on 05/05/20 at 16:42:51:
I presume you meant 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bf4 c5.
Opps yes sorry.


Carlsen has been playing 1 d4 Nf6 2 Bf4 c5 3 d5 lately in online games (Banter Blitz versus Cheparinov, rapid versus Repo) and Demuth recommends it in his series on chess24 -- 1 d4 Nf6 2 Bf4 c5 3 d5 d6 4 Nc3 e5 5 Bd2 e4 is a possible line.

I don't know if white has an advantage there but I think many consideration the line 1 d4 Nf6 2 Bf4 c5 3 e3 Qb6 4 Nc3 Qxb2 5 Nb5 Nd5 6 a3 a6 7 Rb1 Qa2 8 Qc1 axb5 9 Ra1 Qxa1 10 Qxa1 easier to play for Black -- however it probably is equal with best play and very sharp so could fit the bill if that's what you're looking for.




  
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Re: London vs c5
Reply #10 - 05/06/20 at 14:30:28
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Norris Gambit 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 c5 3.e4 is here: https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1342332236
  
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Re: London vs c5
Reply #9 - 05/06/20 at 14:24:15
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MW wrote on 05/05/20 at 18:46:23:
Both Romero (The Agile London) and Sedlak (Winning with the Modern London) give this move order....

with regard to 3...Qb6 neither authors like it due to 4 Nc3 as now 4...Qxb2 runs into 5 Nxd5 +- and 4...e6 or ...Nf6 5 Nb5

This doesn't look so bad for black, e.g. 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 c5 3.e3 Qb6 4.Nc3 Nf6 (or 4...e6 and 6...Nf6) 5.Nb5 Na6 6.c3 e6 7.a4 Be7 8.Nf3 O-O and the engine is giving white 0.3 edge, but that's likely to trend towards zero if black plays solidly. I didn't find anything special for white in the database either.
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Optically white has improved the N/b5 compared to a usual London, but does it really coordinate well in the long run? Note that the engine doesn't like a4-a5 for white, nor does it like ...c5-c4 for black.
  
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Mtal
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Re: London vs c5
Reply #8 - 05/06/20 at 10:44:58
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MW wrote on 05/05/20 at 18:46:23:
Mtal wrote on 05/05/20 at 16:13:11:
I been looking at playing the london more and was wo during what to do with this move order, d4 d5, bf4 c5?

Is pushing a good option? I see some sources say play e3 then qb6 comes. Then some say take right away. Just looking for what is the best line and also sharpest. Thanks.


Both Romero (The Agile London) and Sedlak (Winning with the Modern London) give this move order....both prefer 3 e3 although both mention 3 e4 a kind of reverse Albion or Morris Gambit as Romero calls it, which seems pretty sharp although I haven't really looked at it..

After 3 e3 there are a few black possibilities:

3...Nc6 4 c3 now if Qb6 5 Qb3 etc

3...cxd4 4 exd4 Nc6 5 c3 etc

with regard to 3...Qb6 neither authors like it due to 4 Nc3 as now 4...Qxb2 runs into 5 Nxd5 +- and 4...e6 or ...Nf6 5 Nb5

1...d5, 2...c5  can lead to some interesting positions and move order for both players is important.

Both books give good coverage of this line and are worth a read if you are interested. Chessable also have a London course which they are planning to up-date. There is also a Short and Sweet version of this course which you can get for free a kind of try before you buy option...


I probably need to learn line with e3 actually now I think of it because black could start off with nf6, e6, and then c5.

I have winning with the london. Are agile London and the chessable course good complements?
  
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Re: London vs c5
Reply #7 - 05/06/20 at 10:40:44
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kylemeister wrote on 05/05/20 at 19:50:22:
RoleyPoley wrote on 05/05/20 at 18:52:12:
pushing?

Yeah, I thought that implied 3. d5.

MW wrote on 05/05/20 at 18:46:23:
Both Romero (The Agile London) and Sedlak (Winning with the Modern London) give this move order....both prefer 3 e3 although both mention 3 e4 a kind of reverse Albion or Morris Gambit as Romero calls it, which seems pretty sharp although I haven't really looked at it..

Who knows, maybe this "Albion" for "Albin" will proliferate like "Morris" for "Norris" apparently has.

sorry I meant playing d5 on move 3 when c5 was played.
  
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Mtal
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Re: London vs c5
Reply #6 - 05/06/20 at 10:38:22
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kylemeister wrote on 05/05/20 at 16:42:51:
I presume you meant 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bf4 c5.

Opps yes sorry.
  
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