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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black? (Read 23373 times)
FreeRepublic
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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #53 - 04/14/21 at 22:49:35
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Sam Collins for CP April 2022 presents a game with this same line (through transposition):

1e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 Nc6 5.Nf3 e6 6.Bc4 a6 7.0-0 b5 8.Bb3 Na5

White won the game, though at one point Sam says that engines preferred black.

I don't think it would be mistaken to call in a "Dangerous Weapon" and you might wish to roll the dice and play it.,
  
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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #52 - 04/10/21 at 20:23:24
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"I would say
Glenn Snow wrote on 05/22/20 at 17:55:24:
.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 Nc6 5.Nf3 e6 6.Bc4 a6 8.0-0 b5 9.Bb3 Na5.

is Black's best and constitutes a refutation or very close to one."

ChessPublishing has two annotated games with 9...Bb7 by Lane and Smerdon. 9...Bb7 has been played more often, but 9...Na5 scores better. Either way, this is worth investigating.

Black's play seems daring to me as he continues to ignore the development of his king side. Still, black has gathered space on the queen side and keeps all options open for his king side pieces. Results, and initial engine analysis suggest that this works for black. At least until white finds the right plan ...
  
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MNb
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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #51 - 05/26/20 at 20:57:25
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The same as always - study it seriously before playing it. Critical are

- 6.Bc4 Bg7 7.e5 (White wins half of the games) Nh6 (now White scores 53%) 8.Bf4 (56%, but only 25 games) O-O 9.h3 (only 6 games).
- 6.h4 but I suspect that Black can get a somewhat improved version via 4...g6 and 5...Bg7, even though I won a corr. game with 4...g6 5.Nf3 Bg7 6.h4 myself back in 1995.
  

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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #50 - 05/26/20 at 19:09:50
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As a practical matter is there anything wrong with the Fianchetto System against the Morra: 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 Nc6 5. Nf3 g6!? I don't know what was Panjwani's objection to this, as far as I can tell it seems to hold up just fine theoretically and the resulting positions aren't terribly difficult to handle in practice.

What say the Morra Experts.
  

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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #49 - 05/26/20 at 17:19:40
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MartinC wrote on 05/26/20 at 12:15:36:
Incidentally, is 3 .. d3 that effective? LC0 just goes Bxd3, c4, Nc3, Nge2, h3, o-o and Be3. Nge2 first if needed to cut out any Bxc3 ideas.

Looks an entirely logical and coherent way to set up whites pieces. Obviously still broadly a game, and one white might not handle well in practice.

Apparently Panjwani didn't mention that.

An old book bit, from a Russian opening encyclopedia of the 1990s, is 4.c4 Nc6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Bxd3 Bg7 7.Nge2 Nf6 8.O-O O-O 9.h3 d6 10.Be3 Bd7 11.Qd2 Ne5 12.f4 Nxd3 13.Qxd3 a6 14.a4 Bc6 15.a5 Rc8 from K. Larsen-Dzindzichashvili, US Open 1991, which it alleged to be equal.
  
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MartinC
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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #48 - 05/26/20 at 12:15:36
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Very possible. That would of course be more work, making the Alipin ideas a bit more tempting.

Incidentally, is 3 .. d3 that effective? LC0 just goes Bxd3, c4, Nc3, Nge2, h3, o-o and Be3. Nge2 first if needed to cut out any Bxc3 ideas.

Looks an entirely logical and coherent way to set up whites pieces. Obviously still broadly a game, and one white might not handle well in practice.
  
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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #47 - 05/24/20 at 14:52:10
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MartinC wrote on 05/24/20 at 09:16:33:
A fascinating point about these early e6/a6 etc lines - after 4 Nxc3 e6 5 Nf3 a6 LC0 quite significantly prefers going Bf4 and Be2, and thinks white is getting nearly 50%.

White does have a lot of development and dark squares to try and work with, so can't be nonsense. Also few semi traps like 6 Bf4 Nc6 7 Be2 b5?! 8 o-o ^ 8 .. Bb7 9 a4 b4 10 Nd5 etc

Seems best to go 5.. Nc6 first instead. That lets you save on a6 if white just develops. After 6 Bc4 a6 7 o-o b5 it wants to go 8 Bd3, which should logically be an improvement on Bb3 and Bc2 after Na5.

Then it vaguely dreams of going Re1, a4 and meeting b4 with Nd5. Probably not really quite enough but it does definitely need careful handling by black. Taking on a4 is rather safer but then white can plausibly try and win a6 back etc.

Even things on the rather speculative end like 8 Bd3 Bb7 9 Re1 d6 10 Bd2!? Nf6 11 a4 b4 12 Nd5!? ed 13 ed+ Ne5 14 NxN de 15 Rxe5+ Be7 16 Bb4 aren't nonsense.


I wonder if the most accurate move order for Black might be 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 a6 (or 4...Nc6) 5.Nf3 Nc6 avoided weakening d6 and f6 for the moment.  If White doesn't go 6.Bc4 then perhaps Black chooses another development.
  
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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #46 - 05/24/20 at 10:47:02
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25 years ago when i first starting playing regularly and was looking for advice on building repertoires, one of my friends who played the sicilian said that he usually went to the back of the opening books for a line to play as players frequently never got that far into them.

I certainly cant remember any book or opening i have worked all the way through to the end, even the ones that i adored.
  

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MartinC
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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #45 - 05/24/20 at 09:16:33
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A fascinating point about these early e6/a6 etc lines - after 4 Nxc3 e6 5 Nf3 a6 LC0 quite significantly prefers going Bf4 and Be2, and thinks white is getting nearly 50%.

White does have a lot of development and dark squares to try and work with, so can't be nonsense. Also few semi traps like 6 Bf4 Nc6 7 Be2 b5?! 8 o-o ^ 8 .. Bb7 9 a4 b4 10 Nd5 etc

Seems best to go 5.. Nc6 first instead. That lets you save on a6 if white just develops. After 6 Bc4 a6 7 o-o b5 it wants to go 8 Bd3, which should logically be an improvement on Bb3 and Bc2 after Na5.

Then it vaguely dreams of going Re1, a4 and meeting b4 with Nd5. Probably not really quite enough but it does definitely need careful handling by black. Taking on a4 is rather safer but then white can plausibly try and win a6 back etc.

Even things on the rather speculative end like 8 Bd3 Bb7 9 Re1 d6 10 Bd2!? Nf6 11 a4 b4 12 Nd5!? ed 13 ed+ Ne5 14 NxN de 15 Rxe5+ Be7 16 Bb4 aren't nonsense.
  
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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #44 - 05/23/20 at 19:36:36
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MNb wrote on 05/23/20 at 17:36:07:
Fortunately then I haven't contradicted myself.

Quote:
So if there is a refutation of the Morra Gambit this might be the one.


Quote:
I got tired of finding remedies against every new defensive line.


even if I had totally forgotten what I wrote two and a half years ago too.
So I'm not sure what your point is. If it's to give me a compliment for being consistent, thanks. Because indeed I haven't put much effort in finding a remedy against Glenn's proposal - too tired, you know, both then and now. Since several years I prefer to play the Open Sicilian. Less work.  Wink


I guess the point was mostly that your conclusion stands. But take it as a compliment as well!
  
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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #43 - 05/23/20 at 17:36:07
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Fortunately then I haven't contradicted myself.

Quote:
So if there is a refutation of the Morra Gambit this might be the one.


Quote:
I got tired of finding remedies against every new defensive line.


even if I had totally forgotten what I wrote two and a half years ago too.
So I'm not sure what your point is. If it's to give me a compliment for being consistent, thanks. Because indeed I haven't put much effort in finding a remedy against Glenn's proposal - too tired, you know, both then and now. Since several years I prefer to play the Open Sicilian. Less work.  Wink
  

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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #42 - 05/23/20 at 09:58:04
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MNb wrote on 05/22/20 at 21:47:19:
Glenn Snow wrote on 05/22/20 at 17:55:24:
I'm talking about a variation that has been discussed here on the chesspub and I think also called a refutation by TopNotch.  Namely 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 Nc6 5.Nf3 e6 6.Bc4 a6 (...b5???) 8.0-0 b5 9.Bb3 Na5.

Yes, I had forgotten about this one (this time I made a note). My memory, which never was particularly good, is getting worse. This is a good optiion for Black as well, According to my database (which includes several corr. games, White scores a whopping 25% after 8...Na5. So if there is a refutation of the Morra Gambit this might be the one.  Still the same principle applies - study 7.O-O b5 8.Bb3 Na5 9.Re1 Nxb3 10.Qxb3 Bb7 11.a4 b4 12.Bg5 f6 13.Bf4.


Here is what you wrote in the other thread (about Esserman's book):

MNb wrote on 04/12/17 at 19:25:28:
CraigEvans wrote on 04/12/17 at 14:13:30:
it looks just about as critical as any other line I know against the Morra, if played in the right way as a souped-up ...Nge7 line.

This is basically why I dropped the Morra Gambit - I got tired of finding remedies against every new defensive line.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 04/12/17 at 17:39:35:
1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 e6 5.Nf3 a6 6.Bc4 b5 7.Bb3 Nc6 8.O-O Na5 9.Re1 Nxb3 10.Qxb3 Bb7 11.a4 b4 12.Bg5 Be7 13.Bxe7 Qxe7, it seems like a good moment for 14.Nd5.

14...Bxd5 15.exd5 Nf6 16.Rad1 O-O 17.Rd4 a5 18.d6 Qd8 and White doesn't seem to have enough. So 16.dxe6 fxe6 17.Rac1 O-O but I don't see how White can prevent Black from consolidating.


I think that 12...Be7 as given in your first answer is better for Black, although perhaps slightly more complicated than 12...f6 13. Bf4. Even if this continuation (12...f6) might give an advantage as well, it seems White has better chances of complicating the issue. I posted a short reply in the old thread.
  
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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #41 - 05/23/20 at 05:57:18
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/22/20 at 22:25:31:
I find this lichess "analysis" to be misleading. I assume it's auto-generated by an engine at low depth.



It uses SF, not sure about depths. It's (not surprisingly) fairly inaccurate in the opening.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #40 - 05/22/20 at 23:53:48
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That "?" is just me being emotional. I should start a thread about whether using engines makes chessplayers more/less/differently emotional.
  
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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #39 - 05/22/20 at 23:05:46
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/22/20 at 22:25:31:
Quote:
(7...d6 8.Bf4 Be7 9.Qe2 Nf6 10.Rfd1 Qc7 11.Rac1 O-O 12.a3)
That can't be right. 10...Qc7? is exactly the sort of routine Sicilian move that gets black in a world of hurt in the Morra Gambit.

Well, that's an old main line (by transposition);  I'd be surprised if it really deserves "?".
  
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