Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 4
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black? (Read 1875 times)
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10460
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #51 - 05/26/20 at 20:57:25
Post Tools
The same as always - study it seriously before playing it. Critical are

- 6.Bc4 Bg7 7.e5 (White wins half of the games) Nh6 (now White scores 53%) 8.Bf4 (56%, but only 25 games) O-O 9.h3 (only 6 games).
- 6.h4 but I suspect that Black can get a somewhat improved version via 4...g6 and 5...Bg7, even though I won a corr. game with 4...g6 5.Nf3 Bg7 6.h4 myself back in 1995.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2017
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #50 - 05/26/20 at 19:09:50
Post Tools
As a practical matter is there anything wrong with the Fianchetto System against the Morra: 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 Nc6 5. Nf3 g6!? I don't know what was Panjwani's objection to this, as far as I can tell it seems to hold up just fine theoretically and the resulting positions aren't terribly difficult to handle in practice.

What say the Morra Experts.
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4598
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #49 - 05/26/20 at 17:19:40
Post Tools
MartinC wrote on 05/26/20 at 12:15:36:
Incidentally, is 3 .. d3 that effective? LC0 just goes Bxd3, c4, Nc3, Nge2, h3, o-o and Be3. Nge2 first if needed to cut out any Bxc3 ideas.

Looks an entirely logical and coherent way to set up whites pieces. Obviously still broadly a game, and one white might not handle well in practice.

Apparently Panjwani didn't mention that.

An old book bit, from a Russian opening encyclopedia of the 1990s, is 4.c4 Nc6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Bxd3 Bg7 7.Nge2 Nf6 8.O-O O-O 9.h3 d6 10.Be3 Bd7 11.Qd2 Ne5 12.f4 Nxd3 13.Qxd3 a6 14.a4 Bc6 15.a5 Rc8 from K. Larsen-Dzindzichashvili, US Open 1991, which it alleged to be equal.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1982
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #48 - 05/26/20 at 12:15:36
Post Tools
Very possible. That would of course be more work, making the Alipin ideas a bit more tempting.

Incidentally, is 3 .. d3 that effective? LC0 just goes Bxd3, c4, Nc3, Nge2, h3, o-o and Be3. Nge2 first if needed to cut out any Bxc3 ideas.

Looks an entirely logical and coherent way to set up whites pieces. Obviously still broadly a game, and one white might not handle well in practice.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1696
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #47 - 05/24/20 at 14:52:10
Post Tools
MartinC wrote on 05/24/20 at 09:16:33:
A fascinating point about these early e6/a6 etc lines - after 4 Nxc3 e6 5 Nf3 a6 LC0 quite significantly prefers going Bf4 and Be2, and thinks white is getting nearly 50%.

White does have a lot of development and dark squares to try and work with, so can't be nonsense. Also few semi traps like 6 Bf4 Nc6 7 Be2 b5?! 8 o-o ^ 8 .. Bb7 9 a4 b4 10 Nd5 etc

Seems best to go 5.. Nc6 first instead. That lets you save on a6 if white just develops. After 6 Bc4 a6 7 o-o b5 it wants to go 8 Bd3, which should logically be an improvement on Bb3 and Bc2 after Na5.

Then it vaguely dreams of going Re1, a4 and meeting b4 with Nd5. Probably not really quite enough but it does definitely need careful handling by black. Taking on a4 is rather safer but then white can plausibly try and win a6 back etc.

Even things on the rather speculative end like 8 Bd3 Bb7 9 Re1 d6 10 Bd2!? Nf6 11 a4 b4 12 Nd5!? ed 13 ed+ Ne5 14 NxN de 15 Rxe5+ Be7 16 Bb4 aren't nonsense.


I wonder if the most accurate move order for Black might be 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 a6 (or 4...Nc6) 5.Nf3 Nc6 avoided weakening d6 and f6 for the moment.  If White doesn't go 6.Bc4 then perhaps Black chooses another development.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RoleyPoley
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 652
Location: London
Joined: 12/29/13
Gender: Male
Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #46 - 05/24/20 at 10:47:02
Post Tools
25 years ago when i first starting playing regularly and was looking for advice on building repertoires, one of my friends who played the sicilian said that he usually went to the back of the opening books for a line to play as players frequently never got that far into them.

I certainly cant remember any book or opening i have worked all the way through to the end, even the ones that i adored.
  

"As Mikhail Tal would say ' Let's have a bit of hooliganism! '"

Victor Bologan.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1982
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #45 - 05/24/20 at 09:16:33
Post Tools
A fascinating point about these early e6/a6 etc lines - after 4 Nxc3 e6 5 Nf3 a6 LC0 quite significantly prefers going Bf4 and Be2, and thinks white is getting nearly 50%.

White does have a lot of development and dark squares to try and work with, so can't be nonsense. Also few semi traps like 6 Bf4 Nc6 7 Be2 b5?! 8 o-o ^ 8 .. Bb7 9 a4 b4 10 Nd5 etc

Seems best to go 5.. Nc6 first instead. That lets you save on a6 if white just develops. After 6 Bc4 a6 7 o-o b5 it wants to go 8 Bd3, which should logically be an improvement on Bb3 and Bc2 after Na5.

Then it vaguely dreams of going Re1, a4 and meeting b4 with Nd5. Probably not really quite enough but it does definitely need careful handling by black. Taking on a4 is rather safer but then white can plausibly try and win a6 back etc.

Even things on the rather speculative end like 8 Bd3 Bb7 9 Re1 d6 10 Bd2!? Nf6 11 a4 b4 12 Nd5!? ed 13 ed+ Ne5 14 NxN de 15 Rxe5+ Be7 16 Bb4 aren't nonsense.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1571
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #44 - 05/23/20 at 19:36:36
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 05/23/20 at 17:36:07:
Fortunately then I haven't contradicted myself.

Quote:
So if there is a refutation of the Morra Gambit this might be the one.


Quote:
I got tired of finding remedies against every new defensive line.


even if I had totally forgotten what I wrote two and a half years ago too.
So I'm not sure what your point is. If it's to give me a compliment for being consistent, thanks. Because indeed I haven't put much effort in finding a remedy against Glenn's proposal - too tired, you know, both then and now. Since several years I prefer to play the Open Sicilian. Less work.  Wink


I guess the point was mostly that your conclusion stands. But take it as a compliment as well!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10460
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #43 - 05/23/20 at 17:36:07
Post Tools
Fortunately then I haven't contradicted myself.

Quote:
So if there is a refutation of the Morra Gambit this might be the one.


Quote:
I got tired of finding remedies against every new defensive line.


even if I had totally forgotten what I wrote two and a half years ago too.
So I'm not sure what your point is. If it's to give me a compliment for being consistent, thanks. Because indeed I haven't put much effort in finding a remedy against Glenn's proposal - too tired, you know, both then and now. Since several years I prefer to play the Open Sicilian. Less work.  Wink
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1571
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #42 - 05/23/20 at 09:58:04
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 05/22/20 at 21:47:19:
Glenn Snow wrote on 05/22/20 at 17:55:24:
I'm talking about a variation that has been discussed here on the chesspub and I think also called a refutation by TopNotch.  Namely 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 Nc6 5.Nf3 e6 6.Bc4 a6 (...b5???) 8.0-0 b5 9.Bb3 Na5.

Yes, I had forgotten about this one (this time I made a note). My memory, which never was particularly good, is getting worse. This is a good optiion for Black as well, According to my database (which includes several corr. games, White scores a whopping 25% after 8...Na5. So if there is a refutation of the Morra Gambit this might be the one.  Still the same principle applies - study 7.O-O b5 8.Bb3 Na5 9.Re1 Nxb3 10.Qxb3 Bb7 11.a4 b4 12.Bg5 f6 13.Bf4.


Here is what you wrote in the other thread (about Esserman's book):

MNb wrote on 04/12/17 at 19:25:28:
CraigEvans wrote on 04/12/17 at 14:13:30:
it looks just about as critical as any other line I know against the Morra, if played in the right way as a souped-up ...Nge7 line.

This is basically why I dropped the Morra Gambit - I got tired of finding remedies against every new defensive line.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 04/12/17 at 17:39:35:
1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 e6 5.Nf3 a6 6.Bc4 b5 7.Bb3 Nc6 8.O-O Na5 9.Re1 Nxb3 10.Qxb3 Bb7 11.a4 b4 12.Bg5 Be7 13.Bxe7 Qxe7, it seems like a good moment for 14.Nd5.

14...Bxd5 15.exd5 Nf6 16.Rad1 O-O 17.Rd4 a5 18.d6 Qd8 and White doesn't seem to have enough. So 16.dxe6 fxe6 17.Rac1 O-O but I don't see how White can prevent Black from consolidating.


I think that 12...Be7 as given in your first answer is better for Black, although perhaps slightly more complicated than 12...f6 13. Bf4. Even if this continuation (12...f6) might give an advantage as well, it seems White has better chances of complicating the issue. I posted a short reply in the old thread.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TonyRo
God Member
*****
Offline


I'm gonna crack your skull!

Posts: 1761
Location: Cleveland, OH
Joined: 11/26/07
Gender: Male
Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #41 - 05/23/20 at 05:57:18
Post Tools
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/22/20 at 22:25:31:
I find this lichess "analysis" to be misleading. I assume it's auto-generated by an engine at low depth.



It uses SF, not sure about depths. It's (not surprisingly) fairly inaccurate in the opening.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 728
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #40 - 05/22/20 at 23:53:48
Post Tools
That "?" is just me being emotional. I should start a thread about whether using engines makes chessplayers more/less/differently emotional.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4598
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #39 - 05/22/20 at 23:05:46
Post Tools
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/22/20 at 22:25:31:
Quote:
(7...d6 8.Bf4 Be7 9.Qe2 Nf6 10.Rfd1 Qc7 11.Rac1 O-O 12.a3)
That can't be right. 10...Qc7? is exactly the sort of routine Sicilian move that gets black in a world of hurt in the Morra Gambit.

Well, that's an old main line (by transposition);  I'd be surprised if it really deserves "?".
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 728
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #38 - 05/22/20 at 22:25:31
Post Tools
TonyRo wrote on 05/22/20 at 18:16:40:
It's worth noting that quite a few years ago now I had to prep this line in a correspondence tournament and I settled on the following: https://lichess.org/Bs2RBrWz.


I find this lichess "analysis" to be misleading. I assume it's auto-generated by an engine at low depth.

Quote:
1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 Nc6 5.Nf3 e6 6.Bc4 a6 7. O-O Nge7?! { (-0.63 → 0.00) Inaccuracy. d6 was best. }
I'm not sure about the ?!, but whatever.

Quote:
(7...d6 8.Bf4 Be7 9.Qe2 Nf6 10.Rfd1 Qc7 11.Rac1 O-O 12.a3)
That can't be right. 10...Qc7? is exactly the sort of routine Sicilian move that gets black in a world of hurt in the Morra Gambit. The ...Nge7 variation TonyRo played looks better than this.

Quote:
8. Bg5 h6 9. Be3 b5 10. Bb3 Bb7 11. Re1 Na5 12. Ne5 Nxb3 13. Bb6 Qc8 14. Qf3 Nf5 15. Qh5?! { (-0.56 → -1.11) Inaccuracy. axb3 was best. }
So, between 7...Nge7?! white went from 0.00 to -0.56 without any mistakes? Theory of Steinitz, anyone? Maybe each white move was -0.08 and below the threshold for "inaccuracy". Or more likely the numerical assessments have little to do with reality.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 728
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #37 - 05/22/20 at 21:54:22
Post Tools
@Seeley - Stigma provided a link to discussion of Glenn Snow's line in reply #7 of this thread.

For the record, I think the Chicago Defense is quite good, and there is another way with ...d6, ...e6, and ...Bd7 that Silman has advocated in the past. So black is not spoiled for choice. But black needs some actual preparation in all these accepted lines.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 4
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo