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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black? (Read 9163 times)
FreeRepublic
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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #67 - 04/28/21 at 15:36:11
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Glenn Snow wrote on 05/24/20 at 14:52:10:
I wonder if the most accurate move order for Black might be 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 a6 (or 4...Nc6) 5.Nf3 Nc6 avoided weakening d6 and f6 for the moment.  If White doesn't go 6.Bc4 then perhaps Black chooses another development.


That is a clever idea. White could respond with 6Bf4, when 6...e6 7Be2 transposes to a line of the prior post, 7...Nge7, 7...e6, 7...Bb4 being possible continuations.
  
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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #66 - 04/28/21 at 15:26:47
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MartinC wrote on 05/24/20 at 09:16:33:
A fascinating point about these early e6/a6 etc lines - after 4 Nxc3 e6 5 Nf3 a6 LC0 quite significantly prefers going Bf4 and Be2, and thinks white is getting nearly 50%.

White does have a lot of development and dark squares to try and work with, so can't be nonsense. Also few semi traps like 6 Bf4 Nc6 7 Be2 b5?!


I just discovered (or rediscovered?) the excellent posts on the thread about Esserman's book.

It seems to me that 6Bf4 keeps white in the game (no SMG refutation).

7...b5?! is natural, but 7...Nge7 and 7...d6 are still options. There is a lot to explore here and 1. e4 c5 2. d4 cxd4 3. c3 dxc3 4. Nxc3 e6 5. Nf3 a6 6. Bf4 Nc6 7. Be2 Nge7 or 7...d6 remains a practical SMG answer, IMO.
  
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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #65 - 04/21/21 at 12:35:46
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kylemeister wrote on 04/20/21 at 15:20:28:
FreeRepublic wrote on 04/20/21 at 14:49:37:
It looks like a reasonable line for black. Andrew Martin of ChessPublishing addressed this in a game played in 2007.

1. e4 c5 2. d4 cd4 3. c3 dc3 4. Nc3 Nc6 5. Nf3 e6 6. Bc4 Bb4 7. O-O Nge7. He discuss 8Nb5, as played, and states:

"8.Bf4 would be my choice, eyeing d6, and if Bc3 9. bc3 d5 10. Bd3 allows White the use of the two Bishops."

Shankland:  "I didn't cover 8. Bf4 in the course, so now I'm thinking."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3sDigCx7s4&t=1530s


Shanky dropped some real pearls of wisdom in the banter to that game, but most amateurs and diehard gambiteers never ever heed such advice.
  

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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #64 - 04/21/21 at 07:55:03
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A tiny bit careless perhaps Smiley

LC0 copes OK with 8 Bf4, but it is more complex than the other lines - 8 Bf4 o-o then obviously 9 Bd6 is at least messy.

9 Qe2 Ng6 10 Bg3 Bxc3 11 bc d6 ^ e5 is the sort of set up that it likes pointing out. It doesn't care if/when white gets d6 back. Not what white wants, I think.

8 Qc2 does at least produce somewhat different looking play (again), as can 8 Qe2.
(There seem to be various set ups with b6, Bb7, Ng6 and retreating the bishop to e7.).
  
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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #63 - 04/20/21 at 15:20:28
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FreeRepublic wrote on 04/20/21 at 14:49:37:
It looks like a reasonable line for black. Andrew Martin of ChessPublishing addressed this in a game played in 2007.

1. e4 c5 2. d4 cd4 3. c3 dc3 4. Nc3 Nc6 5. Nf3 e6 6. Bc4 Bb4 7. O-O Nge7. He discuss 8Nb5, as played, and states:

"8.Bf4 would be my choice, eyeing d6, and if Bc3 9. bc3 d5 10. Bd3 allows White the use of the two Bishops."

Shankland:  "I didn't cover 8. Bf4 in the course, so now I'm thinking."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3sDigCx7s4&t=1530s
  
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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #62 - 04/20/21 at 14:49:37
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kylemeister wrote on 04/18/21 at 22:30:17:
Sam Shankland in his forthcoming Chessable course goes with Lc0's suggestion as given by MartinC in this thread almost a year ago:  3...dc 4. Nxc3 Nc6 5. Nf3 e6 6. Bc4 Bb4 7. 0-0 Nge7.  He thinks White should play 8. Nb5 but is slightly worse after 8...d5 9. ed ed 10. Bxd5 Nxd5 11. Qxd5 0-0.


It looks like a reasonable line for black. Andrew Martin of ChessPublishing addressed this in a game played in 2007.

1. e4 c5 2. d4 cd4 3. c3 dc3 4. Nc3 Nc6 5. Nf3 e6 6. Bc4 Bb4 7. O-O Nge7. He discuss 8Nb5, as played, and states:

"8.Bf4 would be my choice, eyeing d6, and if Bc3 9. bc3 d5 10. Bd3 allows White the use of the two Bishops."

I expect a lot of games will continue with 8Qe2 (previously mentioned on this thread) 0-0 9Rd1.

8Bg5, as previously mentioned, seems to score about 50/50 at this point.

8Qc2 (also previously mentioned) is Marc Esserman's recommendation, pg 194-6. I haven't gone through his analysis yet.

I suspect that white will end up with some, but not full compensation for his pawn, at least according to the engines. White will retain some practical chances.

At a pragmatic level, black probably gains from taking white off SMG autopilot. From white's point of view, black is not playing the open variation system of his choice. In terms of chess evaluation, white retains greater freedom of movement of his pieces, black lags in development, but black remains a pawn up.
  
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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #61 - 04/20/21 at 14:11:47
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What about (4..Nc6 5.Nf3 e6 6.Bc4 Bb4 7.0-0 Nge7) 8.Qe2 or even 8.Qc2!? with the standard development scheme of playing Rfd1 next? Nb5/Bg5 are still on the cards depending on what black wants to do next.

  
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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #60 - 04/20/21 at 08:01:25
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MartinC wrote on 04/19/21 at 07:56:52:
Some other moves likely at least better placed in terms of practical chances?

Something with Bg5 probably. Again choosing 6...Bb4 will be a matter of personal preference and thorough preparation. I met it once as White and found it easy to play against on my patzer level.
3...Nf6 suits me best as Black.
[/quote]

I'm not quite sure about Bg5. Black's play with h6 (Bh4), o-o, Bxc3 and d5 does seem quite straightforward and very classical, although no doubt there are some details. The bishop on c4 is rather unfortunate.

Bf4 maybe. I guess that if I was interested in this as white (I'm not!) I'd be thinking about trying to avoid an early Bc4 unless/until black has gone d6. Different problems at the least.
  
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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #59 - 04/20/21 at 05:20:12
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Bibs wrote on 04/20/21 at 04:24:40:
Interesting. Not wishing to derail the thread, but any idea of when this Shankland Classical Sicilian course is gonna drop? Schedule was for May.

Shanky quite recently (paraphrased):  I've submitted everything; it's up to Chessable as to when they publish it.
  
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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #58 - 04/20/21 at 04:24:40
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kylemeister wrote on 04/18/21 at 22:30:17:
Sam Shankland in his forthcoming Chessable course goes with Lc0's suggestion as given by MartinC in this thread almost a year ago:  3...dc 4. Nxc3 Nc6 5. Nf3 e6 6. Bc4 Bb4 7. 0-0 Nge7.  He thinks White should play 8. Nb5 but is slightly worse after 8...d5 9. ed ed 10. Bxd5 Nxd5 11. Qxd5 0-0.


Interesting. Not wishing to derail the thread, but any idea of when this Shankland Classical Sicilian course is gonna drop? Schedule was for May.
  
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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #57 - 04/19/21 at 11:57:51
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MartinC wrote on 04/19/21 at 07:56:52:
Nice to know I wasn't insane - although it was obviously 99% LC0's ideas Smiley

Cheesy Yet another reasonable defense against the Morra.

MartinC wrote on 04/19/21 at 07:56:52:
If that really is white's best 8th move then this is a real deterrent to 6 Bc4.

I doubt if 8.Nb5 is best. I looked at a few games and think White's play can be improved in a few of them.

MartinC wrote on 04/19/21 at 07:56:52:
Some other moves likely at least better placed in terms of practical chances?

Something with Bg5 probably. Again choosing 6...Bb4 will be a matter of personal preference and thorough preparation. I met it once as White and found it easy to play against on my patzer level.
3...Nf6 suits me best as Black.
  

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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #56 - 04/19/21 at 07:56:52
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Nice to know I wasn't insane - although it was obviously 99% LC0's ideas Smiley

If that really is white's best 8th move then this is a real deterrent to 6 Bc4. Some other moves likely at least better placed in terms of practical chances?
  
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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #55 - 04/18/21 at 22:30:17
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Sam Shankland in his forthcoming Chessable course goes with Lc0's suggestion as given by MartinC in this thread almost a year ago:  3...dc 4. Nxc3 Nc6 5. Nf3 e6 6. Bc4 Bb4 7. 0-0 Nge7.  He thinks White should play 8. Nb5 but is slightly worse after 8...d5 9. ed ed 10. Bxd5 Nxd5 11. Qxd5 0-0.
  
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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #54 - 04/14/21 at 22:50:30
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Correction: April 2021
  
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Re: Most practical OTB Smith-Morra counter for black?
Reply #53 - 04/14/21 at 22:49:35
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Sam Collins for CP April 2022 presents a game with this same line (through transposition):

1e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 Nc6 5.Nf3 e6 6.Bc4 a6 7.0-0 b5 8.Bb3 Na5

White won the game, though at one point Sam says that engines preferred black.

I don't think it would be mistaken to call in a "Dangerous Weapon" and you might wish to roll the dice and play it.,
  
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