ChessPub Forum - Ragozin/Manhattan 5.Bg5 Nbd7

FreeRepublic God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 886 Location: Georgia Joined: 06/08/17 Gender:	Re: Ragozin/Manhattan 5.Bg5 Nbd7 Reply #13 - 04/06/24 at 13:58:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	Nernstian59 wrote on 03/21/24 at 21:25:17: Staying with the idea of answering 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 with 4...dxc4, I see that Thinkers Publishing has a new book on the QGD where author Luis Rodi recommends this line. There's a bit of confusion regarding the book's title since the publisher's website gives it as The Queen’s Gambit Declined – A Dynamic Repertoire for Black, Available here: https://forwardchess.com/product/the-modernized-queens-gambit-declined?section=S...


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FreeRepublic God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 886 Location: Georgia Joined: 06/08/17 Gender:	Re: Ragozin/Manhattan 5.Bg5 Nbd7 Reply #12 - 03/28/24 at 14:11:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	Nernstian59 wrote on 03/21/24 at 21:25:17: Staying with the idea of answering 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 with 4...dxc4 Krishnater provides a great deal of analysis of this open, dynamic line. There is a lot to take in, but so far it seems to hold up, IMHO. I'll refrain from posting his analysis. I apologize for the following cryptic remarks. In his 17th and 18th lines, he prefers 10...Nc6 to 10...g6. However, I think 10...g6 is allright. In his 10...Nc6 lines, White might improve with 13b3.


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Re: Ragozin/Manhattan 5.Bg5 Nbd7
Reply #11 - 03/27/24 at 22:50:31

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After 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 Nbd7, 5Nf3 Bb4 is the Manhattan variation again. White can instead play 5e3. Of course, there are many ways Black can continue. Here is one less explored continuation: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 Nbd7 5. e3 c6 6. Nf3 h6 7. Bh4 g5 8. Bg3 Nh5

"This unusual set up is a mixture of everything." Pavlovic, ChessPublishing.

There are four deeply analyzed games on ChessPublishing. It's my understanding that Shankland includes this in his Meran repertoire. I don't know of any other source.

The play gets rather messy and both players are pretty much on their own. It's obvious that Black wins the two bishops but weakens his king-side pawn structure. Everything else is up in the air, as far as I can tell.

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Nernstian59 Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 237 Joined: 12/15/21	Re: Ragozin/Manhattan 5.Bg5 Nbd7 Reply #10 - 03/21/24 at 21:25:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	Staying with the idea of answering 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 with 4...dxc4, I see that Thinkers Publishing has a new book on the QGD where author Luis Rodi recommends this line. There's a bit of confusion regarding the book's title since the publisher's website gives it as The Queen’s Gambit Declined – A Dynamic Repertoire for Black, while showing an image of the book cover where the title includes Thinkers' favorite buzzword "Modernized"; i.e.; The Modernized Queen’s Gambit Declined – A Dynamic Repertoire for Black. The preview on the Niggemann site presents a Table of Contents where the Cambridge Springs is given as an additional way of meeting 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5. The Vienna is another part of the suggested repertoire, in keeping with FreeRepublic's comment about how the Vienna is consistent with the 4...dxc4 line. Amazon's blurb about the book says "the author's aim was to present a simpler repertoire", though in this case "simpler" is 620 pages long. Perhaps such a lengthy tome is unavoidable since the author had the laudable intention of giving both a positional line and a more aggressive one at important junctures.


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FreeRepublic God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 886 Location: Georgia Joined: 06/08/17 Gender:	Re: Ragozin/Manhattan 5.Bg5 Nbd7 Reply #9 - 03/21/24 at 00:58:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	Nernstian59 wrote on 03/20/24 at 23:03:12: Krishnater meets the traditional main line with 4...dxc4 I missed that. Thanks! It does not hurt Black to have another choice. I will look into it. It seems to me that Krishnater has beefed up his coverage of the main line with 12Nd2 Qa6. He might have added to his initial coverage of 12R(f)b1 as well. As to the traditional main line with 4Bg5. Arjun's approach is an Orthodox line with ...h6 Bh4 and Black playing ...c5 in one move, instead of ...c6-5. The computer likes it. I think its statistics in human play have improved with growing understanding. I think it's probably good, but it still feels a little passive to me. My failing, I'm sure. The Tartakover is more complex with more chances for both sides. However, it may demand more strategic and tactical ability than I possess. Study of the literature may be the solution. At first glance, 4...dxc may offer the kind of dynamic, active play that one gets from the Manhattan (/Ragozin/Vienna complex). I agree with you that chapter 26 should have a more prominent title, along the lines that you suggested.


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Nernstian59 Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 237 Joined: 12/15/21	Re: Ragozin/Manhattan 5.Bg5 Nbd7 Reply #8 - 03/20/24 at 23:03:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	FreeRepublic wrote on 03/20/24 at 19:34:54: As far as I can tell he does not cover the traditional main line 1d4 d5 2c4 e6 3Nc3 Nf6 4Bg5 FreeRepublic - Krishnater meets the traditional main line with 4...dxc4, which was noted in the other thread you pointed to. As I stated there, it's not really obvious from the Table of Contents for Krishnater's course that 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 is covered in Chapter 26 - QGD 3.Nc3 Sidelines. As I said there, it's perturbing to see what was once the Main Line of all main lines consigned to the realm of "sidelines". Perhaps it would have been better to have a chapter title like "4.Bg5 and Other 4th Moves". After all, Krishnater gives 37 lines for 4.Bg5, which seems like a lot for a mere sideline.
	« Last Edit: 03/21/24 at 20:36:15 by Nernstian59 »

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FreeRepublic God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 886 Location: Georgia Joined: 06/08/17 Gender:	Re: Ragozin/Manhattan 5.Bg5 Nbd7 Reply #7 - 03/20/24 at 19:34:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	kylemeister wrote on 08/20/23 at 19:50:04: I noticed that there is apparently a Chessable course in the works which advocates the Manhattan. There is Krishnater's 1. d4 d5. It received discussion here: https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1400087718 I have it and think it is very good. Krishnater covers the Manhattan main line with 12Nd2 g6 and also 12Nd2 Qa6 as well as numerous ways White can vary earlier. His coverage of the exchange variation is very interesting, IMO. He also covers Bf4 systems and the Catalan. He generally assumes an early Nf3 by White. An important exception is his analysis of the exchange variation. As far as I can tell he does not cover the traditional main line 1d4 d5 2c4 e6 3Nc3 Nf6 4Bg5. A player wishing to play the Manhattan could try 4...Nbd7 5Nf3 Bb4 6e3 c5 transposing. However, this is not forced. 6cxd would lead to lines of the exchange variation not covered by Krishnater. 5e3 Bb4 6Ne2 likewise avoids the Manhattan. Krishnater's Mahattan repertoire can be paired with other lines, such as the Tartakover variation or the Nimzo-Indian. A line of note is 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 Nbd7 5. e3 h6 6. Bh4 Be7 7. Nf3 O-O. This transposes to a position analyzed by GM Arjun at Modern-Chess.


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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4960 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: Ragozin/Manhattan 5.Bg5 Nbd7 Reply #6 - 08/20/23 at 19:50:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	I noticed that there is apparently a Chessable course in the works which advocates the Manhattan. I'll take a guess that it will include 6. cd5 ed5 7. e3 c5 8. Bd3 Qa5 9. Qc2 c4 10. Bf5 0-0 11. 0-0 Re8 12. Nd2 Qa6, which was considered "the most reliable defence" in Chess Publishing last year. That's instead of the traditional 12...g6. (By the way, the seemingly common "one old game I readily recall" is in this case Seirawan-Sosonko, which appeared in a NIC Yearbook. NIC classifies it as a Nimzo-Indian ... go figure.)


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FreeRepublic God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 886 Location: Georgia Joined: 06/08/17 Gender:	Re: Ragozin/Manhattan 5.Bg5 Nbd7 Reply #5 - 09/12/20 at 16:15:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	I agree that Barsky and ChessPublishing are the best resources. I went through the variation index (Forward Chess) of Pert's book on the Ragozin. The book seems remarkably broad and deep, yet he does not seem to cover this line. I don't know what is in Cornette's book on the Ragozin. Theory does not seem to have changed much. Opening theory is now well into the middle game. So I think the next step is to play through, and play, games to gain experience. I like the ...Bb4 ...Nbd7 ...Qa5 idea. It seems an elegant way to break the pin, and to pin white. The Manhattan resembles the Cambridge Springs Defense a tempo up in ...c5 lines. Typical middle games pit black's queen side "majority attack," Barsky's terminology, against white's central push e4. White may have the better chances, but black certainly has positive play. As one might pair a meal with a wine, the Manhattan must be paired for a complete repertoire. May I recommend the Nimzo-Indian?


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Maturin13 YaBB Newbies Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 44 Joined: 01/02/05	Re: Ragozin/Manhattan 5.Bg5 Nbd7 Reply #4 - 06/05/20 at 23:00:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	mxstoe wrote on 05/18/20 at 13:26:48: So do you guys know of any other resources on this Westphalia Line ? Right here on Chesspublishing Ruslan Scherbakov devoted three months to an overview of the Ragozin, mainly ...Nbd7 lines, in June-August 2005. Obviously specific lines will have moved on but I played the Ragozin successfully at club level using only Ruslan’s updates, which include sufficient general explanations.


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mxstoe YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 20 Joined: 05/08/20	Re: Ragozin/Manhattan 5.Bg5 Nbd7 Reply #3 - 05/18/20 at 13:26:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	tony37 wrote on 05/13/20 at 17:02:00: A weird thing about that book is that it only gives one game (four pages) for 5.cxd5 exd5 6.Bg5 h6 7.Bh4, and nothing on 7...g5 or 7...O-O 8.e3 Bf5 (but that last line is a recent development). Maybe he thought: in some years theory in these lines will be outdated anyway, so why bother... So do you guys know of any other resources on this Westphalia Line ?


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tony37 God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 619 Joined: 10/16/10	Re: Ragozin/Manhattan 5.Bg5 Nbd7 Reply #2 - 05/13/20 at 17:02:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	A weird thing about that book is that it only gives one game (four pages) for 5.cxd5 exd5 6.Bg5 h6 7.Bh4, and nothing on 7...g5 or 7...O-O 8.e3 Bf5 (but that last line is a recent development). Maybe he thought: in some years theory in these lines will be outdated anyway, so why bother...


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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4960 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: Ragozin/Manhattan 5.Bg5 Nbd7 Reply #1 - 05/13/20 at 16:09:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	I see that the Manhattan/Westphalian is covered in chapter 7 of that now 9-year-old book. I too have wondered why it doesn't get more attention.


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mxstoe YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 20 Joined: 05/08/20	Ragozin/Manhattan 5.Bg5 Nbd7 05/13/20 at 13:55:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hey, do any of you guys have "The Ragozin Complex" by Barsky and knows if he covers 5...Nbd7 in it? This Line seems to not get much attention in general, do you know why?


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