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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Is black suffering in the d3, Bxc6 anti-Berlin? (Read 2318 times)
tony37
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Re: Is black suffering in the d3, Bxc6 anti-Berlin?
Reply #20 - 05/19/20 at 20:07:18
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Heuristic wrote on 05/19/20 at 12:02:50:
Even if f6 seems strange in the Ruy Exchange, blacks defence to e5 is more solid since white's light squared bishop is taken off the board. defending e5 with the bishop or queen is not optimal against c3, d4 lines, which black is forced to in a Berlin Bxc6

That may be why some people had the (apparently brilliant) idea of playing Nd7 followed by f6, also a standard plan in the delayed exchange Ruy. Knight on d7 can be rerouted to e6. If you're that sure Black is having a hard time in this line, it can't be difficult to develop a mini-repertoire 'Busting the Berlin', a lot of (super-)GMs will be very interested, but I don't think you've given a single variation in this thread.
  
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mn
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Re: Is black suffering in the d3, Bxc6 anti-Berlin?
Reply #19 - 05/19/20 at 19:48:21
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...a5 sure, I guess. ...a6 seems incredibly unlikely to me. Also, I have no idea what your point is in your most recent post.
  
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Heuristic
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Re: Is black suffering in the d3, Bxc6 anti-Berlin?
Reply #18 - 05/19/20 at 12:02:50
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I want to reiterate the fact that in the d3, Bc5, Bxc6 line. Black needs to play a purely defensive move protecting e5, losing a tempo of sorts. And since the position is not closed, it matters. White on the other hand will develop harmoniously.

Even if f6 seems strange in the Ruy Exchange, blacks defence to e5 is more solid since white's light squared bishop is taken off the board. defending e5 with the bishop or queen is not optimal against c3, d4 lines, which black is forced to in a Berlin Bxc6
  
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Heuristic
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Re: Is black suffering in the d3, Bxc6 anti-Berlin?
Reply #17 - 05/19/20 at 11:56:44
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Heuristic wrote on 05/19/20 at 11:55:39:
halbstark wrote on 05/18/20 at 08:03:23:
[quote author=22214F0 link=1589572758/11#11 date=1589755302]Is Black really likely to play ...a6 unprompted?


I guess it is clearly useful to have the pawn on a6, so it should be a better version for black, but it is really not the kind of move "black will play anyway."


I wrote or a5. Stop misrepresenting my posts. Black will play either of those moves eventually, so it would be a worse line for white.
  
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mn
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Re: Is black suffering in the d3, Bxc6 anti-Berlin?
Reply #16 - 05/19/20 at 09:26:29
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halbstark wrote on 05/18/20 at 09:56:32:
mn wrote on 05/18/20 at 08:26:22:
I'd also be interested in the arguments regarding whether the Bishop is better placed on e7 or c5.


Just a few quick thoughts: I guess both lines are around equal, but I would (slightly) prefer the bishop on e7. The c5-square is not really ideal for the bishop. It might come under attack with Nb3 or b2-b4 and it blocks the c5-square for either the c6-pawn (playing the c6-c5 seems to be quite often a decent idea to win influence in the center) or the Knight. Nd7 is a pretty automatic move in this structures as the knight is badly placed on f6 with the e4 so overprotected and to have the option to park the knight on c5 instead of f8 might be a little bit more flexible.

The only real downside of the bishop on e7 as far as I can tell is the missing option of going Be6, Nd7, Qe7 and 0-0-0 without losing any more tempi, which is a plan I really like in the Berlin version. But objectively I guess this shouldn´t really make a huge difference.


I agree, I was initially going to say that Black had a clearly better version of the Anti-Berlin because his Bishop is better placed, but then I remembered the relevant ...Qe7 plan, but wasn't sure on how important having this option is.
  
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trw
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Re: Is black suffering in the d3, Bxc6 anti-Berlin?
Reply #15 - 05/18/20 at 17:23:12
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mn wrote on 05/18/20 at 08:26:22:
I'd also be interested in the arguments regarding whether the Bishop is better placed on e7 or c5.



Finally an interesting question at least within a useless topic. I learned the hardway that e7 is generally the better square. The Berlin is often a strange opening in that the popular open diagonals and files aren't as useful as they appear.
  
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halbstark
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Re: Is black suffering in the d3, Bxc6 anti-Berlin?
Reply #14 - 05/18/20 at 09:56:32
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mn wrote on 05/18/20 at 08:26:22:
I'd also be interested in the arguments regarding whether the Bishop is better placed on e7 or c5.


Just a few quick thoughts: I guess both lines are around equal, but I would (slightly) prefer the bishop on e7. The c5-square is not really ideal for the bishop. It might come under attack with Nb3 or b2-b4 and it blocks the c5-square for either the c6-pawn (playing the c6-c5 seems to be quite often a decent idea to win influence in the center) or the Knight. Nd7 is a pretty automatic move in this structures as the knight is badly placed on f6 with the e4 so overprotected and to have the option to park the knight on c5 instead of f8 might be a little bit more flexible.

The only real downside of the bishop on e7 as far as I can tell is the missing option of going Be6, Nd7, Qe7 and 0-0-0 without losing any more tempi, which is a plan I really like in the Berlin version. But objectively I guess this shouldn´t really make a huge difference.
  
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mn
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Re: Is black suffering in the d3, Bxc6 anti-Berlin?
Reply #13 - 05/18/20 at 08:26:22
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I'd also be interested in the arguments regarding whether the Bishop is better placed on e7 or c5.
  
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halbstark
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Re: Is black suffering in the d3, Bxc6 anti-Berlin?
Reply #12 - 05/18/20 at 08:03:23
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mn wrote on 05/17/20 at 22:41:42:
Is Black really likely to play ...a6 unprompted?


I guess it is clearly useful to have the pawn on a6, so it should be a better version for black, but it is really not the kind of move "black will play anyway."
  
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mn
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Re: Is black suffering in the d3, Bxc6 anti-Berlin?
Reply #11 - 05/17/20 at 22:41:42
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Is Black really likely to play ...a6 unprompted?
  
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Heuristic
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Re: Is black suffering in the d3, Bxc6 anti-Berlin?
Reply #10 - 05/17/20 at 13:09:54
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Jack Hughes wrote on 05/17/20 at 11:38:31:
Heuristic wrote on 05/15/20 at 22:44:45:
So no, you cannot reach the position via transposition from the Exchange Ruy since black already has a knight on f6 in the d3 Berlin.

White basically wins a tempo on e5 for free. but not a pure tempo in the sense of making two moves in a row

What do you think about the line 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. 0-0 Be7 6. Bxc6? My understanding was that it's supposed to be an ever so slightly improved Anti-Berlin for black, but if it's the structure that scares you I don't see why you would be too comforted by that.


The only difference is the inclusion of a6, so I would say that it's a worse line since black will play that move anyway (or a5)
  
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Jack Hughes
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Re: Is black suffering in the d3, Bxc6 anti-Berlin?
Reply #9 - 05/17/20 at 11:38:31
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Heuristic wrote on 05/15/20 at 22:44:45:
So no, you cannot reach the position via transposition from the Exchange Ruy since black already has a knight on f6 in the d3 Berlin.

White basically wins a tempo on e5 for free. but not a pure tempo in the sense of making two moves in a row

What do you think about the line 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. 0-0 Be7 6. Bxc6? My understanding was that it's supposed to be an ever so slightly improved Anti-Berlin for black, but if it's the structure that scares you I don't see why you would be too comforted by that.
  
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Re: Is black suffering in the d3, Bxc6 anti-Berlin?
Reply #8 - 05/16/20 at 04:05:31
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Heuristic wrote on 05/15/20 at 19:59:18:
I really feel that black is suffering in the d3 Berlin if White takes on c6.

Have you Berlin players experienced this as well? It's a bit surprising. One would think it's a welcomed line winning the bishop pair. The devil is in the details, though. Blacks position is restricted and weakened. Usually the Bishop pair is more than enough compensation. This time the counter play is not there, it's almost a good knight vs bad bishop structure.

Furthermore, white easily maneuvers and plants a knight on f5, black will be forced to take it.. White holds all the cards in this line and dictates play. You just have to hang on. It's a very underrated continuation.



Uhhhh what line? I mean Black isn't struggling anywhere in the Berlin.
  
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Seeley
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Re: Is black suffering in the d3, Bxc6 anti-Berlin?
Reply #7 - 05/15/20 at 23:34:50
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Heuristic wrote on 05/15/20 at 22:42:52:
As you probably know, pure pawn endgames in the Exchange Ruy are lost for black.

Not necessarily. Marin investigates the Spanish Exchange in his book 'Beating the Open Games', and shows that there are circumstances in which Black can hold the pawn endgame.
  
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Heuristic
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Re: Is black suffering in the d3, Bxc6 anti-Berlin?
Reply #6 - 05/15/20 at 22:44:45
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So no, you cannot reach the position via transposition from the Exchange Ruy since black already has a knight on f6 in the d3 Berlin.

White basically wins a tempo on e5 for free. but not a pure tempo in the sense of making two moves in a row
  
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