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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Correspondence Chess 2020 (Read 6059 times)
bragesjo
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Re: Correspondence Chess 2020
Reply #44 - 11/27/20 at 22:13:29
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About time ICCF has created a new available time contol option that some events uses called Triple Block system. One players that has almost 2500 in elo, thus much higher than me, has been thinking about my draw offer in a dead drawn endgame for more more than 80 days and he has about 20 moves left before he needs to take days from the bank where he can use 100 additional days. In normal time control one has to to move before a numbers of days even if one has time left or else one loses but in triple block  system there are no limts. I expected him to accept the draw offer after 100 additional moves thus he uses 200 days before taking a draw..
  
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Re: Correspondence Chess 2020
Reply #43 - 11/27/20 at 05:37:02
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Being an active ICCF player my experience is that time wasting within ICCF tournaments is in my opinion a real problem and ICCF don't seem interested in taking a hard line against this.

After 20 plus years of playing ICCF when I finish my current games I'm looking at other correspondence options. It is not my idea of enjoyment to be playing an opponent who playing down a mainline of the Petroff  takes 39 days to make ten moves before getting another 40 days to play the next 10 moves....and we are still playing a mainline!!
  
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Re: Correspondence Chess 2020
Reply #42 - 11/26/20 at 22:24:25
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For what it's worth, ICCF had an anti-stalling rule a few years ago when I was active (maybe it's still in effect), where a player using more than 20 days on a single move would have his subsequent reflection time count as double for the remaining moves.
  

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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Correspondence Chess 2020
Reply #41 - 11/04/20 at 08:43:12
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Hi.

Thanks for posting that. On the face of it there is a quite impressive number of older games that up the total.

Have nice day.
/ CbT



  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Correspondence Chess 2020
Reply #40 - 11/04/20 at 05:24:49
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Below is what is in Harding's UltraCorr 2020. Judging by how the numbers fluctuate year by year, it seems his effort to find games also fluctuated.

1500-1900     4018
1901-1950     6623
1951-1970    23387
1971-1980    45816
1981-1990   127843
1991-1995    98370
1996-2000   201418
2001-2003   255512
2004         78944
2005         75313
2006         71780
2007         79197
2008         80517
2009         82610
2010         88413
2011        101277
2012        104240
2013         97962
2014         86679
2015         95718
2016         98722
2017        104295
2018         85702
2019         54123
2020           284
non-date      2861

  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Correspondence Chess 2020
Reply #39 - 11/02/20 at 09:46:48
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Hi.

In principle of course you would want as much information as possible. The problem for me is not exactly that the base gets to big or anything; the very marginal disadvantage in ease of usage from adding more games is not very concerning. It's more like statistics is the problem. First of all you may use it in decisionmaking, even if more commonly when I played at least, I based opening decisions more after what I found to be current best games in line. Secondly it is conceivable that I'd want to convey to others some statistics about some line and it does not feel credible to do that without a good idea of what is in the data.

In general I'd say a large chunk of games in the corr database are already not very relevant. Big engine improvements over time mainly (and hardware). To me there would appear to be a split in what you can do as a corr player with the invention of widely available AI engines. For this reason I'd rate fresh games to be volumes more valuable than ones before people started using AI engines.

If we go back to commercial corr databases. If not ICCF games or Lechenicher what other places are there where you could possibly find hundreds of thousands of qualitative games? (not post AI introduction qualitative more both players would be very likely to use decent engines qualitative) To me it seems more likely to be not very relevant ones that fill up these bases. If I am wrong though that would be very ok as then it would seem likely I'd learn about som new source of nice games.  Smiley

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Correspondence Chess 2020
Reply #38 - 11/01/20 at 20:04:59
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That’s true.  I guess you don’t know whether the extra games are valuable or not.  But wouldn't you want as much info as possible?  I haven’t played corr chess in many years, but having the better library/database used to confer an advantage.  I suppose today it might be more important to have the better engine so would be curious to hear from others whether that’s so, whether having a more complete database is still important, or what it is in general that makes the difference between winning, drawing or losing.

  
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Re: Correspondence Chess 2020
Reply #37 - 11/01/20 at 18:10:30
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Hi.

LeeRoth wrote on 11/01/20 at 15:37:04:
If you are looking for completeness, the next edition of Tim Harding’s UltraCorr is scheduled for early next year and already has more than 2 million games.  Brabo wrote about this database on his blog a while back:  http://chess-brabo.blogspot.com/2018/02/ultracorr-x.html

Sure. Thanks for the tip. I still don't get what the added value is though, since those extra games may be just about anything Huh

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Re: Correspondence Chess 2020
Reply #36 - 11/01/20 at 15:37:04
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If you are looking for completeness, the next edition of Tim Harding’s UltraCorr is scheduled for early next year and already has more than 2 million games.  Brabo wrote about this database on his blog a while back:  http://chess-brabo.blogspot.com/2018/02/ultracorr-x.html
  
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Re: Correspondence Chess 2020
Reply #35 - 11/01/20 at 13:15:57
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Hi.

Updated my homemade corr database with latest ICCF games now and actually bothered to make a spreadsheet with game sources.

ICCF
2004                              205
2005                              6442
2006                              17 356
2007                              28 251
2008                              36 880
2009                              39 600
2010                              42 978
2011                              43 686
2012                              49 809
2013                              53 900
2014                              60 220
2015                              60 984
2016                              62 479
2017                              65 502
2018                              68 056
2019                              64 282

(2004-2019                  =            700 630)

202001                        4998
202002                        4501
202003                        5937
202004                        6070
202005                        5269
202006                        5843
202007                        6155
202008                        5062
202009                        5781
202010                        6025

(202001-202010            =            55 641)

Lechenicher
Lechenicher startto201512            240 902
Lechenicher 201601to 202006      103 604
Lechenicher 202007to 202009      4133

(Lechenicher                  =            348 639)

Other
IECG                              166 659
Chessfriend                        22 675
ASPCCto201912                  694
DESCto201912                  612

(Other                        =            190 640)

TOTAL ALL = 1 295 550


It's nice that you can get a decent corr database without buying it but... What I still really don't get is how Chessbase corr database 2020 (over 1.6 million games - if anyone knows the exact number please share) and Opening Master (1 924 684) have so many games. Any ideas?

I also have ICCF old archives and Lechenicher No engine games that I did not include but that's only 96 586 and 32 858 games respectively.

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 06/28/20 at 08:31:40:
Can I make a .cbh file .pgn so I can add more games? Something tells me no.

To come back to this. By now I've realised that in Chessbase 15 there is a function for this. Not sure how things were previously. Anyway you open the .cbh file in chessbase, select games you want, click "file" near top left and go to selection to text file then it says format and there are two places to check in PGN and if you do that the exported file becomes .pgn

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 09/26/20 at 15:39:09:
Hi.

Games progressing slowly atm.

To update on tournament progress. Games progressing less slowly now. Managed to lose the black game where I was clearly worse out of the opening. Won two on time from the same opponent. Think I've gotten nearer to more or less clearly winning positions in two white games. Also my experimental game (as black) where the thinking was I was either gonna lose like an idiot or draw very straightforwardly seems to have gone in the latter direction. Edit: In that game I had the position that happened after move 22 in my analysis that was done before move 4 btw Cool

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Correspondence Chess 2020
Reply #34 - 09/28/20 at 21:37:51
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Hi again.

I realised there was an omission on my part
ICCF Old Archives Complete (non-server) download in Pgn format
96585 games

I did not put in the database I put together (also no ICCF chess 960). Should have thought about that. In other words any ICCF number given by me earlier would be without that. I guess the only correct thing to do is to alongside the files you manage make and manage a spreadsheet of the sources for the database. Will have to do that at some point.

Have a nice day.

P.S. on ICCF there is also World Championship Finals 1-30 updated 01/01/2020 but I assumed this was in their Server Complete until 31-12-2019 file, anyone know if this is correct?
  
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Re: Correspondence Chess 2020
Reply #33 - 09/28/20 at 21:15:23
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Hi.

Ok. I will have to check the individual sources then and add them all up. Quite possible I've missed something in the merging process (or do you have other sources?). Prolly do it when I update though, i.e. when ICCF releases new games.

It's from lechenichers site. They hosted (host?) tournaments for these two other organisations ASPCC and DESC apparently. Only 694+612 games though so not the largest thing. Hopefully they are also not duplicated in the Complete Archive of Games played on LSS. Dunno that actually.

Archive of ASPCC Tournaments played on LSS upto Dec 2019      694      0.1 MB      0.1 MB      87      78      
1/20/20
Archive of DESC Tournaments played on LSS upto Dec 2019      612      0.1 MB      0.1 MB      96      62      
1/21/20

Chessfriend is, I think, an old non-operational site that Lechenicher provides a games archive for.

Agreed that ICCF and Lechenicher are clearly most important.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Correspondence Chess 2020
Reply #32 - 09/28/20 at 21:06:13
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My downloaded corr only database is 1,728,774 so not sure whats in the chessbase product or Chessfriendall
ASPCC&DESClechenichertournamentsto201912

But essentially the two problems is always de-duping and getting a program to handle a database that large.

Anyways, I would argue quality over quantity anyhow... LSS and ICCF are quality games for the most part... others not so much.
  
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Re: Correspondence Chess 2020
Reply #31 - 09/28/20 at 20:59:08
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trw wrote on 09/28/20 at 19:35:37:
Love it. I was already considering going back to LSS over ICCF... that kinda seals the deal.

Cool. I also think it is a good initiative.

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 09/28/20 at 16:36:51:
Just out of curiosity. I've now merged the ICCF games and Lechenicher (+IECG et al. found on Lechenichers site) into a single database. Can't remember the exact number of games that the database ended up with (1.2-1.3 million asfair) and I am currently on a bus so can't check but it seems to me like there is a few hundred thousand games more in the chessbase corr database (over 1.6 million).

What could these games be? 1804 to ca. 1990 postal games? Or is chessbase just better at finding games generally.
Edit: I actually have 2018 corr base so can check how many non server games myself. Will do later.

Ok so I have some numbers now. Sadly don't have corr 2020.

Chessbase corr database 2018
1 431 813 games
of which:
Chessbase corr database 2018 years all games 1804-1990 (up to and including)
176747 games

Chessbase corr database 2020 (€190 Wink)
1 600 000 games minimum ("over 1.6million")

My downloaded database comprised of:
ICCFto202008
Lechenicherto202006
IECGall
Chessfriendall
ASPCC&DESClechenichertournamentsto201912

1 279 611

Imo it looks like most of the discrepancy between what you can download yourself and the comercial corr-base could indeed be non-server events. There is obviously also postal events 1991 and later which didn't make the cut here due to my arbitrary cut off year 1990. That is sort of heartening as old postal games are not the most relevant to have in modern day corr database (at least ones for competitive use only) and it probably means I don't have to buy a new corrbase Grin.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Correspondence Chess 2020
Reply #30 - 09/28/20 at 19:35:37
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 09/28/20 at 15:55:52:
Hi.

I saw the Lechenicher message about an algorithm for unwarranted delay of game (20200923). Guess it is interesting information. Hope it works out well.

"Dear Chessfriends,

in the past there have been many complaints about games where one player started moving slowly esp in a lost position, partially using the 30-day-per-individual-move rule to its extreme. To my opinion, this is not a good attitude of sportsmanship.

I have therefore developed a measure against this. Depending on the position, the used time of reflection and the ratings of both players, the server can detect such games with a high probability. Actually, the delay of games is already part of the LSS Rules, but was not in effect so far.

Effective 1st October, 2020, such games will now be stopped by the server and the delaying player will be suspended for 3 weeks to start new tournaments. Further penalties might be introduced, if required.

The algorithm will not be revealed to avoid misuse and it might be due to change without notice.

Best wishes
Ortwin Pätzold"


An algorithm sounds like a very sharp way of trying to solve the problem compared to some more blunt but easier to understand regulation.

Have a nice day.



Love it. I was already considering going back to LSS over ICCF... that kinda seals the deal.
  
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