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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Moscow 3...Nd7 4. a4!? (Read 1042 times)
TopNotch
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Re: Moscow 3...Nd7 4. a4!?
Reply #15 - 05/30/20 at 16:03:08
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Jack Hughes wrote on 05/30/20 at 02:05:10:
I don't have any experience with the HIARCS books myself, but I do notice that it is much larger than the Cerebellum book, so my beta-tester very well could be right about their quality.

I don't know how, or if it is possible, to get the Cerebellum books in .ctg format - nor would I want to do so, as a SCID user. They are downloadable as polyglot (.bin) books. The link to download them is https://www.zipproth.de/Brainfish/cerebellum/.


Thanks a lot for the link, i will check it out.
  

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Re: Moscow 3...Nd7 4. a4!?
Reply #14 - 05/30/20 at 12:05:56
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Yes i already use the Cerebellum books with several engines. I didn't know if you had any info about HIARCS. Thanks
  
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Jack Hughes
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Re: Moscow 3...Nd7 4. a4!?
Reply #13 - 05/30/20 at 02:05:10
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I don't have any experience with the HIARCS books myself, but I do notice that it is much larger than the Cerebellum book, so my beta-tester very well could be right about their quality.

I don't know how, or if it is possible, to get the Cerebellum books in .ctg format - nor would I want to do so, as a SCID user. They are downloadable as polyglot (.bin) books. The link to download them is https://www.zipproth.de/Brainfish/cerebellum/.
« Last Edit: 05/30/20 at 04:09:44 by Jack Hughes »  
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TopNotch
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Re: Moscow 3...Nd7 4. a4!?
Reply #12 - 05/30/20 at 00:21:00
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If you don't mind my asking, where can one get the Cerebellum ctg books?
  

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Re: Moscow 3...Nd7 4. a4!?
Reply #11 - 05/29/20 at 10:44:08
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I use the Cerebellum books pretty ofter, do you think the HIARCs book is much better?
  
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Jack Hughes
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Re: Moscow 3...Nd7 4. a4!?
Reply #10 - 05/28/20 at 21:36:39
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Syzygy wrote on 05/28/20 at 20:24:11:
After 15...Nd7, I initially thought 16. Qe2 was just winning for White. After a closer look I see that I missed the brave 16...bxc3! with the point that 17. Bxe5 Nxe5 18. Nxe5 dxe5 19. Qxe5+ Kd7 20. Qf5+ Kc7 21. Qxf7+ Kb8 22. Re6 c2! is balanced.

I think that this line turns 6...Qa5 into a fully viable variation, and most likely Black's best response overall. Thanks for the Cerebellum line, Jack - I should probably start looking into engine-based opening books myself!

Yeah, I'm actually really new to using it myself - basically I've only started using it because one of the beta-testers indicated their value to me. (He prefers the HIARCS book, which I'm seriously considering buying for that reason). If you take a look at our recent discussions on Chessable, then I'm sure you'll have no difficulty finding other cases where my analysis has been aided by Cerebellum.
  
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Syzygy
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Re: Moscow 3...Nd7 4. a4!?
Reply #9 - 05/28/20 at 20:24:11
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Jack Hughes wrote on 05/28/20 at 08:14:32:
Syzygy wrote on 05/28/20 at 07:15:40:
I did look into the line with 6...Qa5 a while ago - it appears to be a novelty, but since Stockfish gave it as 0.00, I thought it could be a solution.

Then I checked it with Leela and decided that 7. O-O b5 8. d4! b4 9. Nd5 Nxe4 10. Bc4 Bb7 11. Re1 is an exceedingly dangerous gambit - i.e. 11...cxd4 12. Nxd4 +/- or 11...Ndf6 12. Nxf6 Nxf6 13. c3! with a strong initiative.

Unfortunately, I think Black has to look elsewhere for equality - after all, it shouldn't come as a surprise that a lack of kingside development would be swiftly punished.


This gambit is actually given as the most testing continuation for white in the Cerebellum book (or at least, unsurprisingly, the LC0 based Cerebellum book). The line given is 11. Re1 Ndf6 12. Nxf6+ Nxf6 13. c3 e6 14. d5 e5 15. Bf4 Nd7 16. Qb3 Bc8.

Definitely not for the faint of heart, but then again neither is the Najdorf and at least at very low depths (Stockfish >30, LC0 >10) seemed to me to be objectively fine for black. Thoughts?


After 15...Nd7, I initially thought 16. Qe2 was just winning for White. After a closer look I see that I missed the brave 16...bxc3! with the point that 17. Bxe5 Nxe5 18. Nxe5 dxe5 19. Qxe5+ Kd7 20. Qf5+ Kc7 21. Qxf7+ Kb8 22. Re6 c2! is balanced.

I think that this line turns 6...Qa5 into a fully viable variation, and most likely Black's best response overall. Thanks for the Cerebellum line, Jack - I should probably start looking into engine-based opening books myself!
  
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Re: Moscow 3...Nd7 4. a4!?
Reply #8 - 05/28/20 at 19:37:08
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 05/28/20 at 19:02:12:
I first played this in 1995. Just wanted to say that Wink

The year after that, IM Rainer Kraut's Sizilianisch mit 3.Lb5(+) gave a number of possible continuations.  I wonder if that could be the earliest book to address it (although it cited games going back to 1971).
« Last Edit: 05/28/20 at 21:05:08 by kylemeister »  
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Jonathan Tait
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Re: Moscow 3...Nd7 4. a4!?
Reply #7 - 05/28/20 at 19:02:12
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Syzygy wrote on 05/27/20 at 20:27:13:
The Moscow with 3...Nd7 4. a4!? is quite the trendy variation


I first played this in 1995. Just wanted to say that Wink
  

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Re: Moscow 3...Nd7 4. a4!?
Reply #6 - 05/28/20 at 17:06:09
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Syzygy wrote on 05/28/20 at 05:31:16:
Thanks for the link, BeeCaves - I actually wasn't aware of Carlsen - Wei Yi 2020. However, the fact that Carlsen crushed Wei Yi after 19. Ra3, when 19. Bb4! is even stronger,  does not bode well for the entire line with 11...Be7.

Instead, Leko's 11...Ng4 is very interesting. After 12. Bg5 h6 13. Bh4 Rc8, the bishop has been pushed off its most dangerous diagonal, so the b6 pawn is safe for now. The ideas of kingside expansion with ...g5 and/or ...h5 are also attractive.

Unfortunately, I don't think this is an easy equalizer for Black, and in fact I'm not sure it fully equalizes at all. White has a variety of interesting positional tries, and Black has to be very precise to hang on. For instance, I don't even think 14. Nd2 deserves a dubious mark - after 14...Nge5 15. h3! Black has to be careful not to fall into the trap with 15...g5 16. Bg3 Bg7 17. Nc4!! Nf3+ 18. Bxf3 Bxd4 19. Nxd6+ winning.

In that specific line, however, the careful 15...Qc5!? should be fine for Black. Thus, in my opinion, the real critical line (which I couldn't fully solve) runs something like:

13...Rc8 14. h3 Nge5 15. Bg3 Be7 16. Rd2!? Nxf3+ 17. Bxf3 e5 18. Qd3 h5 19. Qf1! +=

That's a lot of weird computer moves from both sides, but such is modern chess. Black has a surprisingly tough time dealing with the weaknesses in the position, and if the dynamics don't work out I think Black may just end up statically worse.


I agree, you're right on 14 Nd2 and the dubious mark ... sorry I didn't really check it by itself, just in conjunction with 14 Nd2 Nge5 15 f4? and wrote the comment sloppily.
  
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Re: Moscow 3...Nd7 4. a4!?
Reply #5 - 05/28/20 at 08:14:32
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Syzygy wrote on 05/28/20 at 07:15:40:
I did look into the line with 6...Qa5 a while ago - it appears to be a novelty, but since Stockfish gave it as 0.00, I thought it could be a solution.

Then I checked it with Leela and decided that 7. O-O b5 8. d4! b4 9. Nd5 Nxe4 10. Bc4 Bb7 11. Re1 is an exceedingly dangerous gambit - i.e. 11...cxd4 12. Nxd4 +/- or 11...Ndf6 12. Nxf6 Nxf6 13. c3! with a strong initiative.

Unfortunately, I think Black has to look elsewhere for equality - after all, it shouldn't come as a surprise that a lack of kingside development would be swiftly punished.

This gambit is actually given as the most testing continuation for white in the Cerebellum book (or at least, unsurprisingly, the LC0 based Cerebellum book). The line given is 11. Re1 Ndf6 12. Nxf6+ Nxf6 13. c3 e6 14. d5 e5 15. Bf4 Nd7 16. Qb3 Bc8.

Definitely not for the faint of heart, but then again neither is the Najdorf and at least at very low depths (Stockfish >30, LC0 >10) seemed to me to be objectively fine for black. Thoughts?
  
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Re: Moscow 3...Nd7 4. a4!?
Reply #4 - 05/28/20 at 07:15:40
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I did look into the line with 6...Qa5 a while ago - it appears to be a novelty, but since Stockfish gave it as 0.00, I thought it could be a solution.

Then I checked it with Leela and decided that 7. O-O b5 8. d4! b4 9. Nd5 Nxe4 10. Bc4 Bb7 11. Re1 is an exceedingly dangerous gambit - i.e. 11...cxd4 12. Nxd4 +/- or 11...Ndf6 12. Nxf6 Nxf6 13. c3! with a strong initiative.

Unfortunately, I think Black has to look elsewhere for equality - after all, it shouldn't come as a surprise that a lack of kingside development would be swiftly punished.
  
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Jack Hughes
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Re: Moscow 3...Nd7 4. a4!?
Reply #3 - 05/28/20 at 06:50:53
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I'm not an expert here (at all) but I notice that Cerebellum book recommends 6... Qa5, intending 7... b5 against both 7. 0-0 and 7. d3. Have you looked into this line?
  
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Re: Moscow 3...Nd7 4. a4!?
Reply #2 - 05/28/20 at 05:31:16
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Thanks for the link, BeeCaves - I actually wasn't aware of Carlsen - Wei Yi 2020. However, the fact that Carlsen crushed Wei Yi after 19. Ra3, when 19. Bb4! is even stronger,  does not bode well for the entire line with 11...Be7.

Instead, Leko's 11...Ng4 is very interesting. After 12. Bg5 h6 13. Bh4 Rc8, the bishop has been pushed off its most dangerous diagonal, so the b6 pawn is safe for now. The ideas of kingside expansion with ...g5 and/or ...h5 are also attractive.

Unfortunately, I don't think this is an easy equalizer for Black, and in fact I'm not sure it fully equalizes at all. White has a variety of interesting positional tries, and Black has to be very precise to hang on. For instance, I don't even think 14. Nd2 deserves a dubious mark - after 14...Nge5 15. h3! Black has to be careful not to fall into the trap with 15...g5 16. Bg3 Bg7 17. Nc4!! Nf3+ 18. Bxf3 Bxd4 19. Nxd6+ winning.

In that specific line, however, the careful 15...Qc5!? should be fine for Black. Thus, in my opinion, the real critical line (which I couldn't fully solve) runs something like:

13...Rc8 14. h3 Nge5 15. Bg3 Be7 16. Rd2!? Nxf3+ 17. Bxf3 e5 18. Qd3 h5 19. Qf1! +=

That's a lot of weird computer moves from both sides, but such is modern chess. Black has a surprisingly tough time dealing with the weaknesses in the position, and if the dynamics don't work out I think Black may just end up statically worse.
  
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BeeCaves
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Re: Moscow 3...Nd7 4. a4!?
Reply #1 - 05/28/20 at 00:44:07
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I don't play it with either side and haven't analyzed it but you might already be aware, this game Carlsen - Wei Yei in Lindores Abbey followed the line and Peter Leko talked about the position a bit in this youtube video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPQhzW8Sn-Q

For instance around 1:56 he's mentioning 11... Ng4 12 Bg5 h6 as an option after 10... Qc7 11 Be3 ...

It does seem like it's hard here for White to insist on trying to get Nd2-c4 in immediately, i.e. 13 Bh4 Rc8 14 Nd2?! Nge5 15 f4?! d5! and ...Bc5 winning the queen is a bit annoying.  Or 15 Kh1 (not a top computer move, but trying to avoid the pin) g5!? 16 Bg3 h5 17 h3 Qc5
  
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