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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Is the Kan still in god shape? (Read 1847 times)
MartinC
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Re: Is the Kan still in god shape?
Reply #23 - 07/19/20 at 08:35:43
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There's a distinct tendency for people to over react to new things Smiley
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Is the Kan still in god shape?
Reply #22 - 07/17/20 at 12:00:01
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Hi.

Stigma wrote on 07/15/20 at 19:25:47:
I admit I am surprised 5.c4 isn't more popular than this in CC. Of course it could mean two different things:

A) 5.c4 isn't such a big problem for Black anymore, or

B) 5.c4 is still a problem for Black, but so are the other two main lines, maybe even more so...

So which is it, I wonder? How did White score with 5.Bd3, 5.Nc3 and 5.c4 in the games you referred to?


5.Bd3 (+38 =50 -6)
5.Nc3 (+28 =30 -13)
5.c4 (+7 =13 -3)

Edit: Basically all score relatively well. In corr I think it may often be related to various continuations not being so good and people not realising though. The cost of a mistake early is high.

Have a nice day.
« Last Edit: 07/17/20 at 13:43:40 by Confused_by_Theory »  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Is the Kan still in god shape?
Reply #21 - 07/16/20 at 07:51:52
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I agree, 5. c4 Bc5 6. Nc3 d6. 7. Be3 Ne7 8. Qd2! seems better for White. Muzychuk here gives [7]...e5!? in here annotations to the game against Bojkovic, and her given variation 8. Nc2 Bxe3 9. Nxe3 Nc6 10. Qd2 looks playable for Black (but not too much fun), but White also has 8. Nf5!?, a move which looks annoying.

Yes, I agree. Annoyingly, however Black plays it looks to me that the weakness on d6 here stops him finding his way to a sound Kalashnikov-style position.

Quote:
I looked up the Svidler game and it turns out Svidler was on the white side of it, against Epishin.

Yes, my mistake, sorry! Epishin is (or was) the 5 ...Bc5 proponent. It'd be nice if this line could be rescued, but I fear it's looking bleak ...
  
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Stigma
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Re: Is the Kan still in god shape?
Reply #20 - 07/15/20 at 19:25:47
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 07/14/20 at 22:26:01:
Until then... I Looked at recent games from ICCF and in games finished years 2019+2020 I count
5.Bd3 (94 games)
5.Nc3 (71 games)
5.c4 (23 games)

So at least in correspondence 5.Nc3 is kinda regular. Not so many 5...b5 though, mostly 5...Qc7. Checking a little with chess programs I feel the 5...b5 lines are probably loaded with things to investigate. Definitely seems like there is somewhat of a lack of relevant games in many continuations.

God day.

I admit I am surprised 5.c4 isn't more popular than this in CC. Of course it could mean two different things:

A) 5.c4 isn't such a big problem for Black anymore, or

B) 5.c4 is still a problem for Black, but so are the other two main lines, maybe even more so...

So which is it, I wonder? How did White score with 5.Bd3, 5.Nc3 and 5.c4 in the games you referred to?
  

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Re: Is the Kan still in god shape?
Reply #19 - 07/15/20 at 17:51:05
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Michael Ayton wrote on 07/14/20 at 08:26:32:
Unfortunately, I'd come to the provisional conclusion that 6 Nc3 d6 (6 ...Nc6?! 7 Nc6) 7 Be3 might just put 5 ...Bc5 out of business. After Hellsten's 7 ...Ne7 (7 ...Nf6? allows 8 e5 de 9 Ne6!, as one Peter Svidler found to his cost) 8 Qd2! 0-0 9 Rd1 Qc7 10 Be2 (Muzychuk-Bojkovic) is surely better for White.

I looked up the Svidler game and it turns out Svidler was on the white side of it, against Epishin. But it was a blitz game on playchess.com, so that may explain something:
https://www.365chess.com/game.php?gid=2922935
  
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Re: Is the Kan still in god shape?
Reply #18 - 07/14/20 at 22:26:01
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Hi.

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/24/20 at 09:27:10:
There's some encouraging 'Hedgehog' news in the latest ChessPub update ...

Meanwhile can anyone tell us the current status of 5 Nc3 b5, which hasn't had a ChessPub update for some time? Personally I'm more interested in more 'strategic' stuff like Kamsky's 6 Be2 Bb7 7 Bf3 Ne7 (which seems to score very well; 7 ...d6 may be interesting too?) or Smirin's 6 Bd3 Qb6 7 Nf3 Nc6 8 0-0/e5 Qb8 than in grabbing a hot pawn on e4, but that's just me ...

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 07/03/20 at 00:44:22:
I looked at this line (5.Nc3 b5) a couple of weeks ago before getting deep into fruitless attempts against
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 a6 5.Nc3 Qc7

Will try to post some analysis in the 5.Nc3 thread.


Slowly getting around to this. Will post something tomorrow if I have time.

Until then... I Looked at recent games from ICCF and in games finished years 2019+2020 I count
5.Bd3 (94 games)
5.Nc3 (71 games)
5.c4 (23 games)

So at least in correspondence 5.Nc3 is kinda regular. Not so many 5...b5 though, mostly 5...Qc7. Checking a little with chess programs I feel the 5...b5 lines are probably loaded with things to investigate. Definitely seems like there is somewhat of a lack of relevant games in many continuations.

God day.
  
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fling
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Re: Is the Kan still in god shape?
Reply #17 - 07/14/20 at 15:26:39
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Anyhow, being a longtime fan of the Kan, I think the line Carlsen chose against Anand is very annoying for Black and I think White gets a stable edge in all the following variations.

Although I have rarely met the critical lines, I am anyway looking at other Sicilians, to broaden my repertoire and to find something a bit less risky.

I haven't looked at the 5. c4-variations for some time. But I agree, 5. c4 Bc5 6. Nc3 d6. 7. Be3 Ne7 8. Qd2! seems better for White. Muzychuk here gives 8...e5!? in here annotations to the game against Bojkovic, and her given variation 8. Nc2 Bxe3 9. Nxe3 Nc6 10. Qd2 looks playable for Black (but not too much fun), but White also has 8. Nf5!?, a move which looks annoying.
  
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Re: Is the Kan still in god shape?
Reply #16 - 07/14/20 at 15:05:11
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Michael Ayton wrote on 07/14/20 at 10:31:11:
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was referring to the position after 4 ...a6 5 c4 Bc5, which Hellsten refers to on p. 274. On the ChessBase Chesslive database the M-B game is given as I mentioned -- is this an error?


I see. I only have the e-book, and it was hard to follow. But I found the move order now. It is only mentioned in a sidenote, with no analysis. The game is correct.
  
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Re: Is the Kan still in good shape?
Reply #15 - 07/14/20 at 10:31:11
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Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was referring to the position after 4 ...a6 5 c4 Bc5, which Hellsten refers to on p. 274. On the ChessBase Chesslive database the M-B game is given as I mentioned -- is this an error?
« Last Edit: 07/14/20 at 12:46:02 by Michael Ayton »  
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Re: Is the Kan still in god shape?
Reply #14 - 07/14/20 at 09:26:51
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Michael Ayton wrote on 07/14/20 at 08:26:32:
Thanks for this -- will take a look. In the 6 ...Ba7 line I guess Black can try 9 ...e5, when I've seen 10 Qd3 Nge7 11 Be3 recommended. But meanwhile isn't just 7 Bf4 Nc6 8 Bd6 a problem?

Unfortunately, I'd come to the provisional conclusion that 6 Nc3 d6 (6 ...Nc6?! 7 Nc6) 7 Be3 might just put 5 ...Bc5 out of business. After Hellsten's 7 ...Ne7 (7 ...Nf6? allows 8 e5 de 9 Ne6!, as one Peter Svidler found to his cost) 8 Qd2! 0-0 9 Rd1 Qc7 10 Be2 (Muzychuk-Bojkovic) is surely better for White. Instead of 9 ...Qc7, 9 ...e5 is thematic but after just 10 Nf3 I reckon Black can't do better than end up in an inferior Kalashnikov. I really hope I'm wrong about all this, but maybe 5 ...Bc5 has remained a sideline for a reason! ...


Sorry for asking, but I can't figure out the first moves from your posts or Hellsten's book.

From what I can see, Hellsten doesn't give ...Bc5 in any of the lines after 5. c4. Otherwise, White plays 5. Nc3, or did I miss something? And if you mean 5. Nc3 d6 as in Mychuk-Bojkovic (instead of 6. Nc3 d6), it will be very hard to play 5. ...Bc5
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Is the Kan still in god shape?
Reply #13 - 07/14/20 at 08:26:32
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Thanks for this -- will take a look. In the 6 ...Ba7 line I guess Black can try 9 ...e5, when I've seen 10 Qd3 Nge7 11 Be3 recommended. But meanwhile isn't just 7 Bf4 Nc6 8 Bd6 a problem?

Unfortunately, I'd come to the provisional conclusion that 6 Nc3 d6 (6 ...Nc6?! 7 Nc6) 7 Be3 might just put 5 ...Bc5 out of business. After Hellsten's 7 ...Ne7 (7 ...Nf6? allows 8 e5 de 9 Ne6!, as one Peter Svidler found to his cost) 8 Qd2! 0-0 9 Rd1 Qc7 10 Be2 (Muzychuk-Bojkovic) is surely better for White. Instead of 9 ...Qc7, 9 ...e5 is thematic but after just 10 Nf3 I reckon Black can't do better than end up in an inferior Kalashnikov. I really hope I'm wrong about all this, but maybe 5 ...Bc5 has remained a sideline for a reason! ...
  
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Re: Is the Kan still in god shape?
Reply #12 - 07/14/20 at 03:03:22
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Michael Ayton wrote on 07/10/20 at 10:48:51:
Meanwhile, does anyone know whether 5 c4 Bc5 is still thought OK/interesting? Now 6 Nb3 (not forced, of course) Be7 7 Nc3 d6 8 Bd3 Nf6 9 0-0 b6 10 f4 Nbd7 is a 5 Bd3 Bc5 line which I imagine is still playable, and there's also 6 ...Ba7, with typical Kan themes ...


GM Shaw gives 8.Be2 instead of 8.Bd3. I haven't checked this particular sideline myself, but the bishop does look more harmonious on e2. Against 6...Ba7 he gives 7.Nc3 Nc6 8.Be2 Nf6 9.0-0 0-0 10.Bg5, arguing that the bishop is misplaced on a7. Again, I haven't checked it myself.
  
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Re: Is the Kan still in good shape?
Reply #11 - 07/10/20 at 22:32:52
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Michael Ayton wrote on 07/10/20 at 10:48:51:
Finally, can something be done about the "god shape"? The Kan is good, but not that good!

Annoying, isn't it? Smiley The two mods haven't been here for years, though, it appears. You can change the thread title in the header of your own posts (as above), if that helps at all!
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Is the Kan still in god shape?
Reply #10 - 07/10/20 at 10:48:51
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GM Roiz looked at the 5.c4 line in a couple of 2018 ChessPublishing updates and thought Black had problems.  In the July 2018 update, in particular, he wrote something to the effect that he didn’t see a good answer to the 8.Nc2 line.

I notice that in the game Bryson-Motwani, after 8 ...Bc3 9 bc d6 10 Ba3!? Ne4 11 Qd4 f5 12 Bh5 Kf8 13 Rd1 Nc6 14 Qe3 Na5 15 Qe4 fe 16 Bd6 Qd6 17 Rd6 Ke7 18 Rd4, engines favour the thematic if paradoxical 18 ...b5!? iso 18 ...b6. Maybe this isn't so bad?

Admittedly this still leaves 10 f3 Nbd7 11 Bg5, which looks rather grim for Black after both 11 ...Ne5 12 Qd4 Nfd7 13 Rd1 f6 14 Bf4 and 11 ...Nc5 12 Bh4 Bd7 13 Qd4, and it's hard to see a rescue coming along here, grrr!

Meanwhile, does anyone know whether 5 c4 Bc5 is still thought OK/interesting? Now 6 Nb3 (not forced, of course) Be7 7 Nc3 d6 8 Bd3 Nf6 9 0-0 b6 10 f4 Nbd7 is a 5 Bd3 Bc5 line which I imagine is still playable, and there's also 6 ...Ba7, with typical Kan themes ...

Finally, can something be done about the "god shape"? The Kan is good, but not that good! Cheesy
  
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Re: Is the Kan still in god shape?
Reply #9 - 07/03/20 at 00:44:22
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Hi.

I looked at this line (5.Nc3 b5) a couple of weeks ago before getting deep into fruitless attempts against
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 a6 5.Nc3 Qc7

Will try to post some analysis in the 5.Nc3 thread.

Have a nice night.
  
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